63 replies to this topic

[wembi]

It is sad that the greateness of a driver such as Dale Earnhardt Sr. is being cheapen and even put in question, but some members of the media and fans of auto racing, simply because he chose not to wear an experimental product which in retrospect would not have saved his life. Here is why I think people stop talking out of their asses and let Earnhardt rest in peace.

The HANS device might have helped to keep his head closer to his body, but what every one seems to forget is that internal organs such as the brain, floats in liquid and therefore would have a tendency to continue moving forward even if the skull and bones remain strapped. Basically, the brain hits the internal part of the skull at a rate of impact equal to that of the car hitting the wall. How do you safe guard against such rapid internal deceleration??? The Hans device wouldn't help. The press and other band waggon fans feel a need to blame something or someone for the tragedy, going even to the extent of blaming Earnhardt for not having a closed helmet. Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin had closed helmets, they died of the same injuries as Earnhardt. When Dale was found, the official doctor who worked on him said that there was no outside sign of trauma except that he had blood in his ear and nose, indicating severe internal trauma. If anything, his open face helmet made it accecible to the medics to try CPR on him without having to remove his helmet or move him too much. Any good surgeon will tell you that. Too many people are trying to make it sound like the HANS device would have definetly saved DE Sr. 's life, but the truth of the matter is that he died of major internal injuries...his internal organ were mushed up because they impacted the internal walls of his body at 180MPH...nothing in any form of racing can prevent such impact from happening. This is what kills drivers in a high speed.

I loved Dale and he was the only NAscar driver I enjoyed wacthing. His death is tragic, but he along with any racing fan , knew that racing is extremely dangerous

[Manson]

I race, I'm buying one because I believe in giving myself every possible chance of surviving a major crash. I've been in a couple, they're not much fun. People here believe in prevention, something NASCAR needs to be more active with. Yes, RIP Dale but that's 4 driver's in less than a year. How many wake up calls do they need...

[Mario]

Interesting remarks, wembi

I applaud your candor, but shouldn't NASCAR be more proactive in endeavoring to make the racing more "safer". A flat out denial of the HANS device when it's still in it's infancy will ****** the aim to make the sport more safe. Such research is not easy. But no research will maintain what's shaping up to be a rather ugly status quo.

[Mellon]

I don't know what killed Earnhart so I won't comment on that, but I have to say that in a crash like that the brain does not suffer fatal or even permanent injuries.
It's the neck vertebraes or the base of the skull that can't take the weight of the head+helmet being thrown forward. The HANS device _will_ protect the neck and as far as I can see will not damage the brain any more than without the device, as the brain still suffers the same decelarative forces. The distance may be a little shorter but the decelaration should be smoother since the "give" in the straps is a lot smoother than that of the neck.

[swoopp]

wembi, I think the HANS device would have saved Earnhardt's life. That was not the hardest impact that we have seen drivers, including Earnhardt, walk away from. And for NASCAR's doctor to say that the HANS device would not have helped, sounds like a cover up or at least an attempt to avoid criticism for not mandating the device. It's like saying a helmet or seat belts didn't help him.

[jimm]

OK the HANS might have saved DE Sr. While it is true that the brain "floats" in cerebral spinal fluid in the skull, the injury sutained by DE was a basilar skull fracture. So the insult to the brain was secondary to the one to the skull. This fracture was probably due to the deceleration on the base of the neck as the head had a great deal of momentum while not being held in place while the rest of the body was. The only thing holding the head (+the wieght of the helmet) on is the joint between the top vertabre and the base of the head. The HANS could have taken some of the force instead. He would have had a severe concussion and maybe even some brain swelling or other space occupying lesion (like a hematoma) as a result but this is less likely of being fatal on the scene and there is a greater possiblility of survival at least to the hospital.

(in case you ar wondering I'm a Fellow in a Molecular Neurobiology program)

[Juan]

Wembi,the gforces involved with Dales crash wouldnt of been anywhere near the forces cart drivers face when they hit the walls on the ovals.

There must of been something wrong with dale before the crash because a healthy person would of survived that hit.

A cart driver once withstood a peak 80gs when he hit a wall,and he survived.

[arcwulf7]

A concussion can be a very serious injury. Usually it heals though, providing there aren't repeated incidents of concussion (in essence a brain bruise, caused by an impact with the skull). Nobody survives a catasptrophic basil skull injury, unless they are left a quadraplegic.

[Mario]

Juan,

There was nothing wrong with Dale prior to the crash. He suffered a basal skull fracture. Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin died of similar injuries last year. Perhaps the tight nature of a CART cockpit reduces driver head movement in rapid decelaration?

[130R]

Based on what I know of his injury, the HANS would very likely have saved him. Its a shame.

[PDA]

Juan, I'm afraid that what you say is not quite correct. NASCAR cars are based on a very rigid space frame with viturally no collapsible structures, CART, F1 have a rigid monocoque surrounded by many collapsible structures, which absorb the violence of the crash and reduce the g force on the human occupant.

Umlike Wembi, I don't think we can be at all sure that HANS would have saved his life. having said that, I think that htere has been sufficient evidence, both practical (Fittipaldi's crash last year) and scientific (DBs experimental work over the last three years) to show that it can be a great help in saving drivers from death and serious injury. those drivers who believe this are already using it. there is nothing to stop the others from doing so.

[tony]

I honestly think the HANS device COULD have safed DE's life. I don't know this for a fact, but I will give my 2 cents worth(I am a physicist, maybe that help convince you that what I am saying is reasonable).
WHenever anyone is involved in a crash even on the street there are 3 major impacts in fact. 1st is the impact of the car and object...which sends the body zooming forward because of inertia. The brain and other internal organs are zooming forward at the same rate as the rest of the body...thus the initial collision of a car and object does nothing to the body or internal organs.
Next the exterior of the body(head, chest, arms, legs...etc...) hit some part of the car or has it's motion restrained(5 point harness) causing exterior damage to the body; cuts, gashes etc...These can cause life threatening situations in street cars if people don't buckle up. External cuts and gashes usually don't occur in racing because people are well secured.
Now for the biggie...Once the exterior of someone's body has hit a part of the car or been restrained the internal organs(brain, etc...) rush forward and smack the nearest bones or body support, for example the brain rushing forward and smacking the skull. Then after this there can be more collisions from recoils.
Now think about what the head is going to do in an impact. The head with helmet is a top heavy daggling peice of the body. When the car hits the wall your skull and brain move forward at the same rate so no initial damage to the brain occurs in the first few microseconds...then the brain hits the skull...and the skull itself can crack due to the tremendous deceleration because of restraint. So without the Hans the head just bobbles forward extremely quickly and the brain smacks the skull. THe HANS is NOT, and I reiterate NOT designed to keep the head from bobbling forward. I think this is what makes people believe it would not have helped. I agree if the head were just held in place it would be just as bad in DE's case....nonetheless the simple thick padded collars that just go around the neck to keep the head from bobbling do help in other cases of neck and lower skull injuries. The HANS however is a little more sophisticated. The HANS tries to make the initial forward motion of the head occur in a controlled way...sort of like a stunt man landing on a huge air cushion. If the air cushion is very tight and inflated too much and doesn't give then the stunt man will die...but if the cushion is filled just right then it will compress as the stuntman falls into it. It's just simple energy dispersion...If you let the energy go into compressing the cushion then the stuntman is OK. THe HANS tries to do something similar, it tries to cushion(but not tightly) and gently slow the head down instead of the head just rushing foward. I am certainly no medical expert and I haven't read nor will I probably have access to the full autospy but I think that the HANS could have at least helped.
I honestly think that the doctors are just trying to cover NASCAR's butt. I think even if some MD's said, "yeah, the HANS could have possibly helped and MAYBE have saved DE's life" then NASCAR would have a huge legal problem and look really bad. That's my 2 cents worth.

[AyePirate]

Wembi,

Read this :

http://orlandosentin.....nes-motorrace
(link originally posted by Mario on this thread
http://www.atlasf1.c...threadid=16142)



Closed face helmets do more than protect
the face, The lower bout restricts the chin
from going all the way to the chest on impact.
If he would have been wearing a full face helmet
maybe he wouldn't have needed CPR.


HANS goes even further to restrict this
movement.

HANS and full face helmets save lives.

[wembi]

Thank you , Tony. Your perspective is very insightful and provided the kind of feedback I was hoping for when I wrote this BB. The Hans device CAN reduce up to 35% the risk of head injuries in a heavy frontal impact ( or rear impact). I am not against mandating the HANS device in any form of racing. My BB was to indicate that the relatively strong force of DE's unique crash ( let's not forget, he hit the wall at over 180MPH or some 295 Kmph) could not have spared his life because no amount of device could help the human body withstand this type of deceleration. It would be like falling unto concrete after falling from 200 feet up in the air with a helmet on your head. Would you survive? Yes, but the chance of surviving such a fall are greatly reduced due to the sheer impact of the object stopping your limp body.

Too many people want to blame Nascar or some body or make it sound like Earnhardt was to blame for not wearing the Hans device. Perhaps he should have worn it ( and by the way, he tested it during the Summer of 2000 along with many other drivers and he didn't like it, because , as he said " at this time, the device it too cumbersome and makes it more difficult to do my job safely"). The HANS device has potential and maybe soon, we'll all be wearing something of its nature in our everyday cars, but right now, the device does not insure that deaths will not longer occur in racing. Dale didn't die because he didn't have the HANS device on. Dale died because his body couldn't withstand the deceleration it was suddenly subject to.

As to those who claim that it was not a hard hit, who are they to say what is hard and what is not? A head on crash at any speed over 35 miles per hour has been known to kill people. Just because Tony Stewart flipped over and over and ended up unconscious, doesn't mean that Dale Earnhardt should have survived because his crash didn't look " bad enough". Even Ken Schader who went into the wall with Dale said on TV right after the crash that they " both hit the wall very hard. Dale hit it harder!"

Senna died at Tamburello not as a result of his hit against the wall, but a tiny metallic object flew back to his cockpit and pierced through his helmet. What are the odds of something as freaky to happen twice in an accident? So for some to claim that Dale E. shouldn't have died because he didn't have a " bad looking " crash or the impact wasn't hard enough, is simply stupid.Just because guys like Zanardi walked away with just a concusion from a 40 g's crash at Fontana, California in 1998, doesn't mean that Dale's crash wasn't any hard. Luck plays a big part in Life and nothing we do now, we'll ever bring Dale or Senna back.

What we can do , is respect them in their death and cherish their memories.

Wembi

[Williams]

The HANS device is far from the only solution, and there is no reason why NASCAR shouldn't spending some of it's dough trying to find them. Safer cars, changes to the racing format (i.e. no more restrictor plates), new barrier technology, changes to the track layouts, there are a scores of different approaches that could be looked at, most of them expensive, unfortunately for future drivers. Even if HANS the device is adopted, it'll be because it is the easy solution, just like the the wheel-mounted cutoff switch, and that will be the end of any further research into other areas until the next "big one".

[Duck]

The title of this thread reads, "The HANS Device wouldn't have saved Dale E...... FACT !!!
Really? There's NOTHING FACTUAL what-so-ever in the initial post regarding whether or not the HANS would have prevented Dale's death. Dr. Bohannen (on-scene), Jerry Punch (Trauma/Emergency Room Physician - auto racing commentator) both DO NOT have definite conclusions EITHER WAY as to whether the HANS would have prevented the neck from hyper-extending. However, the utilization of the HANS certainly COULD have in some way minimized the severity of Dale's devastating head/neck trauma.
The tragic autopsy results are now in and official. Dale died identically to Neil Bonnet, Adam Petty, and Kenny Irwin. At least give the HANS a chance !

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by Williams
The HANS device is far from the only solution, and there is no reason why NASCAR shouldn't spending some of it's dough trying to find them. Safer cars, changes to the racing format (i.e. no more restrictor plates), new barrier technology, changes to the track layouts, there are a scores of different approaches that could be looked at, most of them expensive, unfortunately for future drivers. Even if HANS the device is adopted, it'll be because it is the easy solution, just like the the wheel-mounted cutoff switch, and that will be the end of any further research into other areas until the next "big one".

I'm hoping that they'll start exploring the
"deformable structures" route.
Building cars like tanks is a great
survival strategy when the car tumbles,
but when it doesn't......

[colejk]

First off I am saddened by Dale Earnhardt's death like evrybody else. BUT why does everyone seem to neglect an important fact. You can discuss HANS devices and other safety issues in NASCAR, but it is a dangerous sport and death does occur, if it didn't then it wouldn't be pushing the limit would it. NHL hockey got more violent and dangerous when newer safer equipment was introduced, and I think that if cars did get any safer or drivers had better equipment they would just push more.

Th point I don't understand is, " How in hell is a 49 year old man allowed to race?" Just because he's famous and he enjoys doing it? You gotta wonder at what point does age come into the equation? It has to do with more than experience but reflexes as well. Shouldn't there be a cap on age? No doubt that Mr. Earnhardt is an awesome racer but when do these guys ever learn? placing other people's lives in danger just because you love the sport seems ...not right.

[arcwulf7]

An interesting visual experiment of what the forces involved in this 'innocuous' looking crash were inside in the car is to look at the hood of Earnhardt's car. Everything was slowing, the type of accident a driver spat and walked away from. But that hood seemed to start out in slow motion, probably about the weight of a human head, violently snapped back and forth on its hinges, accelerated, as the forces moved back in on themselves and steadily absorbed all of the energy the crash. That hood was what was happening to Earnhardt's neck and head. Unkind, but something, in reality, NASCAR has to address if it wants remedy the problem of its high death rate by modern standards of auto racing. [p][Edited by arcwulf7 on 02-20-2001]

[AyePirate]

Colejk,

He was still one of the best.

He still enjoyed it

It's pretty ageist to say he didn't
belong out there.


Adam Petty was almost 30 years younger
than Dale and died in the same type
of wreck, the only difference was that
Dale was going quite a bit faster.

[Ross Stonefeld]

These drivers (including Rodriguez) have died of injuries HANS specifically prevents

you might want to change your topic...

[Pete Stanley]

The autopsy showed that Dale Earnhardt died of a basular skull fracture.

Wembi describes the problems of the brain crashing into the skull. She is correct that the HANS device does not protect against that sort of injury.

But Dale Earnhardt did not die because his brain slapped against the front of his skull. He died because of a basular skull fracture. While we will never know for sure if the HANS device would have saved him, it would have given him much better odds. I'd say there is an %80 chance he would be alive today if he had worn it.

He would have been in the intensive care unit, but he would still be alive.

[bleakuzs]

After the autopsy was perfromed, the conclusion was that Earnhardt's lower brain and spinal cord, the part that controls all major life functions, was damaged to the point that he was dead as soon as he hit the wall. When the doctors got to him he had no pulse or breathing.

The HANS device may stabalize the head and neck, yet it can't protect a driver in every accident, and the doctors said that this was one of those accidents that there was nothing that would have saved Earnhardt.

[LB]

wasn't the HANS devise built specifically to stop basular skull fractures, at least that is what is said in the Senatal article.

[Paste]

I absolutely disagree with you, wembi. The HANS device, as LS said, is designed to eliminate EXACTLY what killed Earnhardt. To say that it wouldn't have helped is pretty stupid, IMO.

[Pete Stanley]

Before this discussion goes ANY FURTHER, I would recommend reading these articles:

http://www.chicagotr...ition/article/0,2669,SAV-0102130324,FF.html

http://www.chicagotr...ition/article/0,2669,SAV-0102130326,FF.html

I must warn you that the second article gives some graphic descriptions of what a basal skull fracture is. It's not a head injury at all!

[tony]

Hi Wembi...I hope you didn't take my reply as an insult...I didn't intend for it to sound mean. I too am still coming to grips with DE's death. I grew up in the suburbs of Charlotte NC(I now live in Illinois). As a kid I was about 15 miles from Earnhardt's headquaters and about 30 miles from his hometown(Kannapolis). He was like a hometown hero for all people in and around the Charlotte area. Also I certainly mean no disrespect and I certainly feel for his family. I do not think it is inappropriate or unethical to talk about whether his life could have been saved by this device of that device. My opinion as I said was that I think the HANS device COULD have helped and possibly saved his life. To state that it's a fact that it would not have helped is very unscientific(I am a scientist , sorry). As others have stated the HANS was specially designed to prevent basular skull damage...which I have now read was the type of damage Earnhardt suffered. Thus it seems there's a reasonable chance he could have survived. We will never know for sure if he would have survived or not...but I think that NASCAR definitely has a safety problem and they don't seem too concerned about it after 4 deaths in less than a year. ANd I might add that all or most of those deaths were caused my basular skull fracture....It's kinda like when a city finally realizes, "Hey we should put a traffic light up here...enough people have died at this intersection." I think NASCAR should have put up this traffic light and others long ago....Allowing an open faced helmet( I know it wasn't the cause) for instance is really quite silly and foolish.
I think that NASCAR will now begin to take safety more seriously. CART has had a serious investigation of safety. They require the HANS on ovals and require a data recorder to keep track of impact g's and other data to help design safer racecars, barriers, helmets, and other safety devices. F1 to my understanding is soon going to make the HANS mandatory(some drivers wear them now), and I think they too have data recorders...I remember hearing about impact data from Schumacher's crashed car in '99.
Sometimes things are counter-intuitive. People may think "oh in NASCAR the drivers are surrounded by a steel cage, it's like a tank, it should be safe" But the fact is you want a car that's brittle and/or collapsable(is that a word?) upon impact to absorb the energy which otherwise would be delivered to the driver...that's why some of the most horrific looking crashes are not fatal or even damaging to the driver...because the car get's torn to hell but not the driver. Also spinning and tumbling absorbs energy...the energy goes into creating an angular velocity of the car

RotationalEnergy=1/2(moment of inertia)*(angular velocity)^2

Just like in DE's crash...I must admit even I was suckered into this counter intuitive thinking. I watched the last lap saw Waltrip cross the finish line and turned off the TV. I didn't even think that DE could be dead.

[Option1]

I'd add the following URL's to Pete Stanley's list. They're four indepth articles on what the HANS device is and what it can do. Might pay some to be more informed before making GUESSES about whether it would have saved Dale or not.

http://www.autoracin...001031HANS1.htm

http://www.autoracin...001107HANS2.htm

http://www.autoracin...001201Hans3.htm

http://www.autoracin...001207Hans4.htm

[RiverRunner]

While some folks heres opinion may be that the HANS device is not of any use to the NASCAR community nor would/could it have saved Dales life,apparently the NASCAR paddock feels somewhat differently.Reports form the Atlanta,Georgia manufacturer of the HANS device say that they have recieved over 35 orders today from NASCAR teams/drivers.
I'll also add here an analogy to NASCAR's version of safety as related by Scott Pruett."Imagine a steelbox that has a china teacup in it,then drop the box,the box is unmarked but inevitably the china cup inside is broken"

[Williams]

Perhaps to say that the HANS device would not have saved DE is to entirely miss the point. The point is that the forces which killed Earnhardt did so much damage that they were surely more than powerful enough to have caused a basal skull fracture. Doesn't it make sense then that there will be lesser accidents which will be survivable except for the phenomenon of basal skull fracture ? And in fact some of the other recent NASCAR deaths are quoted as having had this phenomenon involved.

Just because seatbelts won't save you if, for example, your car is hit by a train, is no reason not to wear seatbelts...

[Duck]

Colejk, where do you get the stones big enough to assert that a 49 year old man is "too old" to compete competively, and SAFELY in motor racing?

[Brent]

Oh Wembi. You just lost all credibility with me bud. The title to your thread. I have'nt even read it yet, but i will.

HANS wouldn't have saved Dale E...FACT

K what-ever. You some kinda god? Or Jinx?

[Brent]

Oh boy.

by Wembi

simply because he chose not to wear an experimental product which in retrospect would not have saved his life. Here is why....

Hell Wembi. And that is a quote from ya first sentence.

I don't think i need to read any-more.

seeya

[momotan]

Wembi, you are stating "facts" that are simply your opinion. How about a medical opinion from a trauma doctor(that's E.R. doctor just to be clear). I just came off a 9
hour shift at the Montreal General, and I have been doing this the last 7 years, so i think i know a little about head and neck injuries.

Here are some Facts that can be backed up by any doctor(or a person who took general biology).

1. Yes, the brain does float, however it floats in about 2mm of fluid. It's pretty firmly held in place.

2. The brain only get whipped around into the skull when
the head moves violently or comes into contact with something hard.

3. The brain does not travel along with the car. It travels along with the head. If the head snaps violently under heavy g force deceleration, that is when damage can happen.

4. If the head is restrained then the brain is restrained as well. It may mush around a little, but your not likely to get any damage.

5. The skull fractures the Nascar drivers are experiencing are really broken necks. The head snaps so violently that the neck snaps at the base of the skull and kills the poor guy instantly, instantly cutting off blood circulation and nerve communication.

6. The HANS device was designed specifically to prevent this injury. By restraining the head and spreading the force of decelaration evenly across the upper torso, the likelyhood of injury is greatly diminished.

Now my opinion:

I can't tell you Earnhardt would have survived, because I wasn't in the car with him and Nascar doesn't even bother with a black box like F1 and Cart so we don't even know what kind of G forces we are talking about and what the impact angle was, etc.... However I say his chances would have been about 200% better with the HANS device on rather than 0% with no protection.

As well i don't agree with the doctor at the scene who said he thought it was unlikely the HANS would have helped. You just can't predict that. The HANS was devised to prevent this injury, so how can you just state it wouldn't have made a difference? We will never know unless someone who is
wearing it goes into the wall at the same speed and angle and walks away with nothing more than a sore neck (which is my hope for all forms of racing).

As well I fear that Nascar will yet again call it "just one of them thangs" and forget about safety. Nascar has been hard at work covering up the details of the accident. The official press release on Nascar.com claimed massive chest injuries. Only later did the truth come out via the staff at the medical center. I think the only hope is if FOX and the sponsors get on their case and say "hey, we can't lose our stars anymore, what are going to do about it?".

First thing I would do is make the HANS mandatory. Then install black boxes and join in with F1 and Cart and share the data. I would also look at soft walls. The type of wall used in the brazilian CART oval race seem ideal for an oval.
Why not try it at least? As well, the design of the cars hasn't changed much in 20 years. Maybe it's time to make some design changes to the tubeframe that would send energy away from the driver rather than right at him in those types of impact. If they can spend a fortune making the cars as even as possible, they could certainly spend just as much time and money and make the cars 20 times safer.

[Brent]

Thank's momotan.

Wembi,I've read everything here now and you are more than likely very stressed out and you are making comments that are natural but off beam. Your first thread/post was just great (Dale Earnhardt, Senna and F1!!), but now that it has sunk in you've lost the plot. Happens often under stress.

Leave it alone for awhile. Let's wait for the pathologist's report.

"This is a fact, and that is a fact", type conversation will get you no-where.

Hey man! I'm just as upset as you are.

http://www.atlasf1.c...?threadid=16115[p][Edited by Brent on 02-20-2001]

[colejk]

Originally posted by Duck
Colejk, where do you get the stones big enough to assert that a 49 year old man is "too old" to compete competively, and SAFELY in motor racing?

The stones? The poor guy is now deceased isn't he? Do you think he made a good decision to race this year? Now if you were go to choose a way to die, doing something you love isn't too bad. However I have the strange feeling he didn't want to die. He now leaves his wife and family behind. What about them? You can't cheat death forever. You gotta know when to quit. He's had a great career, made lots of fans, friends and money. For Christs sake, retire and live peacefully with your family.

[Nathan]

Originally posted by wembi
It is sad that the greateness of a driver such as Dale Earnhardt Sr. is being cheapen and even put in question, but some members of the media and fans of auto racing, simply because he chose not to wear an experimental product which in retrospect would not have saved his life. Here is why I think people stop talking out of their asses and let Earnhardt rest in peace.

The HANS device might have helped to keep his head closer to his body, but what every one seems to forget is that internal organs such as the brain, floats in liquid and therefore would have a tendency to continue moving forward even if the skull and bones remain strapped. Basically, the brain hits the internal part of the skull at a rate of impact equal to that of the car hitting the wall. How do you safe guard against such rapid internal deceleration??? The Hans device wouldn't help. The press and other band waggon fans feel a need to blame something or someone for the tragedy, going even to the extent of blaming Earnhardt for not having a closed helmet. Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin had closed helmets, they died of the same injuries as Earnhardt. When Dale was found, the official doctor who worked on him said that there was no outside sign of trauma except that he had blood in his ear and nose, indicating severe internal trauma. If anything, his open face helmet made it accecible to the medics to try CPR on him without having to remove his helmet or move him too much. Any good surgeon will tell you that. Too many people are trying to make it sound like the HANS device would have definetly saved DE Sr. 's life, but the truth of the matter is that he died of major internal injuries...his internal organ were mushed up because they impacted the internal walls of his body at 180MPH...nothing in any form of racing can prevent such impact from happening. This is what kills drivers in a high speed.

I loved Dale and he was the only NAscar driver I enjoyed wacthing. His death is tragic, but he along with any racing fan , knew that racing is extremely dangerous

THAT'S 100% A CROCK OF GOOD OLD TEXAS BULL ****

Sorry for my language, plus please realise a few things...

#1 The frontal section of Dale's brain was NOT fataly injured. The autopsy report said death was NOT caused by frontal brain damage. His death was caused by the seperation of the spinal cord from the brain.

This means, that had he used the HANS device, the spinal cord area most likely would not have suffered such damage. In a front collision to things happen to the brain. Number one the frontal area collides with the skull causing a concusion. However it was revlealed in this inccident that concusion was NOT severe enough to cause the death of Dale. It was the seperation of the spinal cord caused by the weight of the head snapping forward and the fact that due to structural constraints, the spinal cord can only stretch so much. Not sure if you are aware, but this is exactly what the HANS prevents, NOT frontal brain damage.

#2 I also do not beleive he had suffered severe enough organ damage southn of the neck to kill him. Atleast not instantly. The autoposy again said there was no reports of any possible fatal internal organ damage to Dale. It was not listed as a possible cause of death. Obviously in this case that was a non issue as far as a cause of death. I think NASCAR would have stated this in a way to show that the HANS device would not have worked...but they didnt. They only stated one cause of death.

I agree his helmet designed had nothing to do with the accident. That was my first thought when I heard this, but I have not heard anything about facal contact with anything.

But I think the HANS device would have saved him, maybe he still would have had severe internal injury, but atleast he would be alive. Lets face it NASCAR drivers have been in higher energy crashes. The G-Forces he would have experianced I dont think would have been highe nough for massive body organ damage. Tests have been performed that a human can survive 40+g load both bodily and neuroligically (sorry for the spelling) and I dont think he experiance 40+g's long enough to cause fatal organ damage. Had he, he would have looked like Greg Moore who did experiance massive internal organ shock.

Clearly this is NASCAR propaganda to prevent them from having to implement the HANS device ASAP.

[LB]

Originally posted by RiverRunner
While some folks heres opinion may be that the HANS device is not of any use to the NASCAR community nor would/could it have saved Dales life,apparently the NASCAR paddock feels somewhat differently.Reports form the Atlanta,Georgia manufacturer of the HANS device say that they have recieved over 35 orders today from NASCAR teams/drivers.

That is probably the best thing I have heard all day, once the autopsy report comes out I'm sure that figure will rise.

If the list in the various articles is correct I would like to see HANS devices implemented throughout much of racing.

[LB]

Nathan,It could also be NASCAR propaganda to avoid them getting their asses sued. It is America after all.

[Duck]

Good Night Colejk..... hope you feel better in the morning.

[Joe Fan]

Straight from the horses mouth, I just seen an interview on CNN with the man who created the HANS device, and he even said that he wasn't sure that his device would have saved Dale Earnhardt. I think Jac Fan's post on another thread where he said that he heard rumors that there Earnhardt was a victim of upper body restraint system failure could have real merit. Ken Schrader, an old dog himself too, was involved in the same accident. He hit the same wall, at the same speed and at a worse angle where there was less crushable structure to absorb the blow and yet he walked away.

I have watched NASCAR racing for years and I swear that this crash did not look any different than quite a few other wrecks where the driver gets turned into the wall and walks away unscathed. In fact, I think I even seen a similar crash at Daytona in 1997 in person and the driver (who I think was Martin) walked away from the accident. I will have to go through my videos and try to find that tape to be sure.

[_Hink]

This topic begins with one of the more ridiculous assertions I have seen in awhile. Keep in mind that this is the fourth driver to die in NASCAR in the last 9 months of similar injuries, injuries that the HANS device was designed to minimize or prevent.

NASCARS response to safety issues is quite the opposite of F1's and CART's. Rather than installing crash data recorders they eliminate them. Rather than allowing telemetry for gathering accident data they ban it altogether. Rather than making a careful observation of the accident scene, they send "emergency" people out with paintbrushes to paint the wall. (The wall was repainted at Louden less than two hours after Irwin's accident, the local police were quite upset about this when they arrived.) Rather than openly discussing real issues of the sad reality they immediately assert "There is nothing we could have done" and follow that up with another assertion "these are the safest cars in the world."

The ostrich algorithm (where you bury your head in the sand) is grossly inadequate here, yet it is exactly what NASCAR chooses to promote time and time again.

Any money says NASCAR will continue with this tactic after this incident just like they have so far. It's a #### shame.

[hedges]

Maybe NASCAR do not want a safer series. NASCAR is growing in spite of, or perhaps even because of its fatalities. Though I am sure no one goes to a race hoping someone will die, the mystique of a sport does draw people and fatalities add to the mystique. F1 too is founded on the "heroics" of the past. Hopefully the teams, drivers and fans will put enough pressure on NASCAR that they change their ways.

I think Wembi just wants DE to be remembered for the great driver he was, and is concerned the arguements over safety are overshadowing and devalueing Dales contribution to his sport.

Though I do not follow NASCAR I sure as hell knew who DE was and my hopes are in death he will contribute one more time and the powers that be in NASCAR realise their sport could be robbed of a talent like Dales at any moment, because they chose the status quo and profits over the well being of their sports participants.

[_Hink]

Try these links from articles published about 5 days prior to Sunday for more about safety issues. Aplologies if any were posted previously.

This one may have been posted earlier:
http://orlandosentin.....nes-motorrace

http://orlandosentin.....rts-headlines

http://orlandosentin.....rts-headlines

http://orlandosentin.....rts-headlines

[_Hink]

Here is another one. Of note is the line on the graphic "1994-1995: Kyle Petty wears the HANS device but has to stop using it after NASCAR rule shrinks the size of side windows, making the device impossible to fit in a race car."

The HANS has gotten smaller since then.

http://orlandosentin...hic0211.graphic

[andy_bee]

saw ABC nightly news late last night on BBC News 24 and they had an indepth thing about NASCAR. what I couldn't believe is the ignorance shown by the NASCAr doctor (his name escapes me at the moment) he claimed that "NASCAR is the safety form of auto-racing"

Sorry, but where the f*** has he come up with that evidence.

[Nathan]

OK so if the window sizes arent big enough..make them bigger.

[Manson]

The NASCAR press release states Dale died from "Blunt Force Trauma". I think this is different than a basal skull fracture. The coverup and denial continues. It also states that they have no intention of mandating the HANS device. Fans should be outraged at this lack of action. Guess it really shows where their priorities lie.

[Sphinx]

Wembi - your post has generated an interesting conversation. Nice work. May DE rest in peace and may NASCAR and auto racing in general learn some valuable lessons from his death. I hope so.

NASCAR has had what 3, 4? deaths of this type in a two year period. Imagine if this was F1 experiencing this!! 4 drivers dead in 2 years...with the same type cause of death. I'd like to think F1 would take IMMEDIATE action to help PREVENT...the key word here...PREVENT (there are no guarantees) this type of tragedy from happening again. So, the question is..what is NASCAR going to do??

Will NASCAR institute a different kind of wall that obsorbs impact? Will they make the HANS mandatory on ovals? Will they look at better crumple zones on the cars? What will they do?

Bottom line..this is going to happen again with this type of racing where 6 cars can be separated by inches for miles at a time...at 180 miles an hour. NASCAR HAS TO DO SOMETHING.

Just to address the point someone made about DE being 49 years old..too old to race. What do you suggest the mandatory retirement age should be for a driver??????
Button is what...20? MS is 32...is he too old? Let's rule that MS has to retire because he is too old. Why not, he already has 3 WDC. Oh, and MH and Alesi..who else is too old?

[Manson]

It's actully 4 drivers in 9 months!?!?! If that isn't enough to get them off their duffs, nothing will.