96 replies to this topic

[GasPed]

...and it might as well be me. I've waited a few days on this (and for some, it might still not be long enough), but I feel strongly enough about this that I want to post it right now, before the thoughts get lost or lose their relevance.

Let me state first, for the record, that Big E was an amazing talent, with a career that ranks right up there with the best of the motorsport legends. The man could flat out drive, and not just ovals (cf. last month's 24 Hours of Daytona for any of you doubters).

Secondly, I'm quite aware of the man's admirable achievements off the track, with respect to his fans and with those less fortunate. He also had a larger than life persona which he used not only for PR/marketing purposes, but also to support a variety of worthwhile causes. The man was not all about himself.

But having said all of that, let me state my opinion on the Big E's on-track conduct: He was a jerk and a menace to others. I'm surprised he lived as long as he did!! People here complain about the arrogance and reckless endangerment of Senna/Prost/Schumacher - well Earnhardt made those guys look like choirboys (and incidentally, he would be the first to admit it and he would be proud of it!).

So before we go slamming NASCAR about its lack of safety, etc., let's be very clear that Dale Earnhardt contributed in no small way to all that it has become - namely, bumper carts at 200 mph (not to mention his general arrogance towards safety measures). Every race he was in, he was an accident waiting (sometimes even wanting) to happen and I say we are seriously fortunate that that he ended his career without causing someone else's demise.

There - I said it. Sorry, but it had to be said.

Gas

[BuzzingHornet]

Why? The man is dead, he's not even buried yet give him a bit of respect.

[130R]

It takes some kind of cojones to say that at this time.

Are you saying his death is good for Nascar? Would he have eventually killed other drivers with his tactics? I don't know because I rarely watched Nascar.

I will say that if Nascar wants their racing to be artificially close (restrictor, aero) at that speed, men are going to die -- as they have (4 in 9 months) Thats not Dale's fault, is it? I heard he didn't like it,saw it for what it was -- entertainment not racing.

[SlateGray]

Gas

Nice long respectful wait to dump on Dale. Sunday at 4pm till Tues. noon is not a few days, it is not even 48hrs.
Classy!

[The Swerve]

GasPed, sounds like a fair point to me - and well put.

This is an F1 board not a NASCAR board. If GasPed were to post this at http://www.thatsracing.com then I would agree that he might be a little tactless, but I like to think we can be a bit more objective here.

[maxpapis]

Originally posted by GasPed
But having said all of that, let me state my opinion on the Big E's on-track conduct: He was a jerk and a menace to others. I'm surprised he lived as long as he did!! People here complain about the arrogance and reckless endangerment of Senna/Prost/Schumacher - well Earnhardt made those guys look like choirboys (and incidentally, he would be the first to admit it and he would be proud of it!).

Everyone has the right to voice their own opinion on this forum.
But I really wish you could be where I am right now. I work right behind the Daytona International Speedway. Right now infront of the track there are about 40 people that have set up a memorial for Dale Earnhardt. There are people there from every walk of life and every age group. I only wish you could be here to read your comment to them. I think they would have some interesting words for you in return.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by The Swerve
GasPed, sounds like a fair point to me - and well put.

This is an F1 board not a NASCAR board. If GasPed were to post this at http://www.thatsracing.com then I would agree that he might be a little tactless, but I like to think we can be a bit more objective here.

For goodness sake's Swerve, the board doesn't matter, Earnhardt's popularity is such that on almost any board you would have a heap of regulars who knew of him.

You must have a strange sense of "objectivity", if you feel that because this is not a NASCAR BB, that no efforts need to be made to show some "Taste" and hold back on the sort of assessments GasPed's made, until a bit of a natural grieving period has passed.

[GasPed]

Hmmm... maybe I didn't wait long enough to post this - fair enough - tell me, what would be the appropriate amount of time to wait?... Five days? Two weeks? Six months? Sorry, but I'm not up on my "Appropriate-periods-of-grieving-when-no-bad-things-may-be-posted-on-a-person-in-AtlasF1" rules!

So apologies for offending some peoples' sensibilities, but it's done and I stand by what I said. Facts are facts whenever they're posted.

As for you, Paste, not sure who the idiot is here, but if you read my post, you'll see I assigned absolutely no blame to anyone for the accident itself. My comments were around Dale E's conduct on the track in general, not on the specific incident. This fact would seem to render your post as absolute garbage.

[John B]

the prize has to go to several people who, on another site, were asking who would take over the #3, this on Sunday night/Monday morning!

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by GasPed
Hmmm... maybe I didn't wait long enough to post this - fair enough - tell me, what would be the appropriate amount of time to wait?... Five days? Two weeks? Six months? Sorry, but I'm not up on my "Appropriate-periods-of-grieving-when-no-bad-things-may-be-posted-on-a-person-in-AtlasF1" rules!

Certainly not two days.

I think you could have done a lot worse than wait two weeks. Yes it's arbitary, I know.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by GasPed
...But having said all of that, let me state my opinion on the Big E's on-track conduct: He was a jerk and a menace to others. I'm surprised he lived as long as he did!! People here complain about the arrogance and reckless endangerment of Senna/Prost/Schumacher - well Earnhardt made those guys look like choirboys (and incidentally, he would be the first to admit it and he would be proud of it!).

So before we go slamming NASCAR about its lack of safety, etc., let's be very clear that Dale Earnhardt contributed in no small way to all that it has become - namely, bumper carts at 200 mph (not to mention his general arrogance towards safety measures). Every race he was in, he was an accident waiting (sometimes even wanting) to happen and I say we are seriously fortunate that that he ended his career without causing someone else's demise.

There - I said it. Sorry, but it had to be said.

Gas

Let me guess, you are an "open wheel only" fan. Methinks you wouldn't have liked Junior Johnson or Curtis Turner either.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I agree with the basis of what you are saying. It took balls to say that, dont be afraid to say something just because it will be unpopular.


Something :I: want to say is im absolutely furious with some of the reactions people are giving.

--US Flags flying at half mast over the United States Postal Office

--Comments like "his death ranks right up there with JFK"

--Comments like "he sacrificed his life for his team

--"The entire family would like to extend its condolences to the family and friends of " Say it with feeling, not some PR template

[GasPed]

Cathy, no doubt I would be lynched on the spot if I said these things at Daytona right now!! And perhaps deservedly so.

But (says he bravely behind his Internet firewall), what I said really is the truth. Don't get me wrong - this is not a "He got what he deserved" statement at all - but there were many, many times I was amazed (and upset) by Dale Earnhardt's willingness to put his own and especially his fellow driver's life at risk. And try as I might to look beyond that at this time, I can't.

Gas

[Paste]

Originally posted by GasPed

As for you, Paste, not sure who the idiot is here, but if you read my post, you'll see I assigned absolutely no blame to anyone for the accident itself. My comments were around Dale E's conduct on the track in general, not on the specific incident. This fact would seem to render your post as absolute garbage.

What are you saying then?? That it's best he died because he wasn't a choirboy? You say "Every race he was in, he was an accident waiting (sometimes even wanting) to happen and I say we are seriously fortunate that that he ended his career without causing someone else's demise." The fact that anyone could say that just boggles my mind.

Maybe we should just go around and kill all the drivers who have ever driven somewhat recklessly. Michael Schumacher? Dead. Jacques Villeneuve? Dead. Darrel Waltrip? Dead. Hell, let's kill Alain Prost too. I guess it's also best that Senna died back in 94, because hell, he might have eventually killed someone with his ruthlessness. And don't tell me that Earnhardt was worse than Senna. Ayrton made MANY questionable manoeuvers during his career. Just like Jacques has (and will continue to do).

Sure, Dale set a precident with his rough driving, but NASCAR had embraced the bump-and-run tactics that he used. They're widely used by many drivers in NASCAR now. Saying, basically, that Dale Earnhardt is better off dead is probably the most disrespectful thing I've ever read on this board. I don't know anyone could ever have the absolute coldness to post such a thing.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I posted the question about the #3 on this board. It was a fair question as well. Its unfortunate about Earnhardt but im not going to go into a mourning period over it

[FordPrefect]

well here's a comment from someone who should know

from BBC

And former Formula One driver Eddie Cheever compared Earnhardt to the late Aryton Senna.

"I have known only two individuals whose very presence transcended the fact that they were extraordinary racing drivers - Dale Earnhardt and Ayrton Senna," Cheever said.

"No one else could fill a room like they could. I met Dale just two years ago but I feel like I have lost a member of my family. There is truly nothing you can say - it is an enormous loss."

Earnhardt's death came only two days after Cheever had an incident with Earnhardt in the International Race of Champions, an all-star series with drivers from NASCAR and Indy-car circuits in indentical closed-cockpit cars.

With three laps left in Friday's event, Cheever drove Earnhardt into the grass entering the fourth turn.

Earnhardt was able to save the car and keep going and retaliated by spinning out Cheever on the cool-down lap.

"The last words that Dale said to me were: 'I'll race you next time, and we'll have just as much fun,'" Cheever said.

"I'm incredibly sad that won't happen."

anyone who thinks that "bump racing" originated with Earnhardt is just showing that they have no appreciation or knowledge of the history of the sport.

trash talk so soon after a death seems to be a product of our times, that doesn't make it less disgusting, but it is reflective of a sad mind.

FP

[Paste]

Nice work, FP.. I think when Eddie saw Dale walk up after the race he was getting a bit worried. Then Dale gave him a bit of a hug and joked with him. Good stuff.

[GasPed]

Saying, basically, that Dale Earnhardt is better off dead is probably the most disrespectful thing I've ever read on this board. I don't know anyone could ever have the absolute coldness to post such a thing.

Never said that, Paste - these are completely your words (or your very loose interpretation of my words)!

I'm also not saying we should ban all drivers who exhibit any recklessness. What I am saying is that Earnhardt consistently and intentionally used contact as a racing tactic, at 200 mph with the stakes very high (namely, many lives at risk). How else did he get that nickname - you know the "I" one? It was because he was willing to play fast and loose with things that others were scared to. Call it "rough" driving or "strong-arm tactics" - whatever - I call it reckless endangerment, and the man practiced it to a fault.

Gas

[John B]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I posted the question about the #3 on this board. It was a fair question as well. Its unfortunate about Earnhardt but im not going to go into a mourning period over it

I wasn't referring to that (don't remember the post in question). On a site as I was surfing that evening people were asking how Childress was going to reorganize his teams, etc and the host asked them to cut it out

[GasPed]

I saw the Cheever thing too, and as far as I'm concerned, it's just another example of the mentality that was Earnhardt's and has now become motorsports' in general.

The idea that hey, I can spin you off at 150 mph, but don't worry - it's all good clean fun and we'll all do it again tomorrow - nudge, wink, hug - is insidous and dangerous. It's become the basic MO of many drivers - if I get PO'd with you or just want to get past, or even just give you a little scare - I'll get under your rear spoiler and give you a little nudge. If you don't like it, you're a sissy - so if you want to race with the big boys, you better learn to take it up the rear now and then.

Like I said, it's an accident wanting to happen. And I'm amazed we haven't lost more lives. And don't tell me Earnhardt wasn't a big contributor to this - in fact, it was a large part of his success.

Gas

[Ricardo F1]

Ever the irony but it seems from what I saw that the fact that for once in his life he seemed to back off and let his two drivers up front race for the flag is probably what killed him. If he was still going balls out to win the race he'd probably be here today.

[The Swerve]

Here's the thing - Earnhardt's crash looked very tame, easily something that could have been caused by someone trying to tip him, yet still it killed him.

I do think that anyone making use of 'bump'n run' tactics has to question themselves - because it could have serious consequences.

[GasPed]

Exactly, Swerve - exactly!

[RedFever]

Don't know what to make of this thread.

I guess someone is lacking understanding about NASCAR, I mean I am no expert but at least the basics I figured it out. Was Dale a though son of a bitch at the wheel of his stock car??? absolutely. Did everyone racing against him know that? absolutely. Did everyone else racing in NASCAR retaliate in the same fashion and did the same bumping manouvres to everyone else, including Dale? absolutely.

I don't like bumping and I have a mild interest in NASCAR races, basically I watch them because I need to watch some racing until F1 and CART start. Nevertheless, my personal taste cannot determine whether Dale was a reckless asshole or just one of the best ever stock car drivers. If you are not willing to bump someone and get bumped in return, you should not be racing in NASCAR. Bumping there is the norm, it happens in every race and we saw it many times even in Daytona on Sunday and NOT just from Dale, I have witnessed at lest 7-8 bumps during the race and one actually against Dale from someone else well before the 18 cars pileup, a bump which caused him to lose a few positions at that time (and God knows how many more happened during the entire race that were not televised). So, singling out Dale for this behavior, which is instead widely accepted in NASCAR sounds utterly out of place, even more so when you consider this guy hasn't been burried yet.

[FordFan]

I happen to agree with you GasPed. Earnhart was a bully on the track. Even in this race, he forced his was past people in ways that could have led to accidents (with Gordon, and Skinner I think). Or, remember what he intentionally did to Cheever after the IROC race this weekend. And, remember a couple of years ago at Bristol, where he seemingly intentionally bumped Labonte from behind, sending him head on into the wall so he could win the race.

If Earnhart had caused the death of anyone of these drivers, people might have had a different view of his on track antics. It was sheer good fortune that he never did.

Doesn't mean his death is any less tragic, though.

[George Bailey]

I keep hearing how dangerous Nascar is because of the number of cars in a pack and because of dangerous driving, but Dale is the only driver to have died in the sport during a race in the last decade, maybe two. If drivers are dying in practice then it can't be aggressive racing that is killing them.

If Dale had invented aggressive driving, and if aggressive driving was killing racers, then you might not be totally classless for spitting on his grave. Since neither of those claims stands up to any sort of scrutiny, I'd say this thread is very wrong, and in very very bad taste.

So GasPed, you are a classless jerk - sorry it had to be said.

[HartleyHare]

GasPed,

I wouldn't have said it publicly so soon, but it was the second thought that passed through my mind after hearing the news (after thinking how tragic a loss it was). Live by the sword, I suppose. Death in motorsport has become far less frequent, but it has always lurked nearby.

It may be a little close to the event for comfort, but why not express your opinion? I am alarmed by violent reactions to a fair point made just because of the timing. But it might be a good idea to shut this thread for now while people absorb the news. No point riling people needlessly.

Talk again in a few weeks?

[Mario]

First off, this issue is being debated on a motor sports forum not the living room of the Earnhardt's nor the doorsteps of Dale Earnhardt Inc., nor at a memorial. Any discussion on motor sport safety at this time will undoubtedly be charged with emotion. It's up to us to discuss matters sensibly. There is no need to attack a poster. If you cannot add positively to a discussion, don't bother submitting a remark.

[FordFan]

Look, he didn't invent agressive driving, but I don't know of another single current driver who has intentionally tried to wreck someone to benefit their own track position. It seems both dangerous and unsporting. So, let's recognize his great driving, the tragedy of his death - but stop lionizing the man.

[Linus27]

GasPed

I understand the points you make and think they are fair comments.

[RedFever]

It's curious how when someone dies some people feel compelled to say "he was looking for it, he was always crazy, it was expected, it was an accident waiting to happen". I saw it happen with Gilles (he was fair, but obviously the critics said he was insane), then Ayrton, now Dale. Interesting how nobody said that before these guys were actually dead. Did anyone actually ever hear "hey, that Ayrton, he is reckless and he is at the limit way too often, his days are counted". Never. Only after his car broke and he died, all of a sudden a chorus emerged "It was obvious, he had the writing on the wall".

[George Bailey]

Originally posted by FordFan
Look, he didn't invent agressive driving, but I don't know of another single current driver who has intentionally tried to wreck someone to benefit their own track position. It seems both dangerous and unsporting. So, let's recognize his great driving, the tragedy of his death - but stop lionizing the man.

Do you watch Nascar? Off the top of my head I can recall Gordon bumping Wallace into the wall in Bristol or Dover for the win, and Stewart bumping Gordon for position last year alone - remember Gordon and Stewart having to be separated from eachother in the pits???

[RiverRunner]

While the timing of this post may be a bit early,I do get the gist of it,and I for one don't see this post as "spitting on his grave" or the poster saying that he is "better off dead".
He brings up a valid point,in NASCAR "rubbin' is racin'" and to a large degree this was an Earnhardt trait,it has been a part of NASCAR racing for far too long now for NASCAR to police it outta the sport,but to me the tipping and bumping didn't display much of any driving skill,but merely a tactic specifically undertaken to use the car itself as a weapon to improve position.Using an aero and engine rules package to pack the cars into groups running at 180 mph while also allowing the bumping and grinding to continue was/is a recipe for disaster.
And it finally bit NASCAR on the ass in the worst possible way.
There is so much irony in this tragedy you can cut it with a knife,RicardoF1's post is spot on in the irony dept for example.
Whatever the case there is no doubt that Dale was the epitomy of NASCAR racing and as a result of his passing,there will be much soul searching in the NASCAR community.

[FordFan]

GB - I assume you know the difference between 'bumping' and 'trying to wreck'. The only explanation for the hitting Labonte in the back during that last lap at Bristol was to wreck him. There was no other way around - he knew, Labonte knew it, and the crowd knew it - that's why they were booing.

And, if you saw the IROC race on Friday, you saw him do the exact same thing to Cheever, AFTER THE RACE, merely out of spite. I don't think's it a stretch to say that a driver who intentionally attempts to wreck another driver has crossed a line.

Doesn't mean he wasn't an all around good guy - even a saint, off the track. Doesn't mean he deserved to die, or anything like that. But on track, he was a bully. (And by the way Red, everyone talked about Earnhart's overly aggressive attitude years before this. It was his trademark, for pete's sake.)

[George Bailey]

FordFan,

That's why I only listed the two recent incidents I could remember where a driver put his right front into the leaders left rear in order to make the lead driver at least spin, and at most hit the wall. There are bumps and bumps, these two I believe were the kind you are attributing to Earnhardt alone.

I didn't like Dale as a driver, I'm a Wallace fan and Dale was always the enemy, but I don't think he somehow was morally worse than the other drivers and hence in some way got what he deserved.


Anyone,

No commments on my point about the Nascar deaths before Dale coming in practice not races? If it's close racing and restrictor plates that are at fault then none of the guys would have died in 2000.

[HartleyHare]

Er, RedF, I was saying that Senna was a dangerous driver, to himself and others, long before his untimely demise. I also held a similar opinion of Earnhardt. I have a similar opinion of Schumacher, though much less so of late. Trulli also fell into this category but appears to be maturing.

If Montoya tries his 'take no prisoners' approach in F1 I will worry for him too.

Senna, Schumacher and Earnhardt all had this aura of being prepared to go a little bit closer to the limit of what is acceptable than others, especially Senna.

[Jackdaw]

Good points, GasPed. It is possible to admire and respect Dale Earnhardt the man and his skill as a racer but at the same time abhor the tactics he used.

[ARing]

GasPed - glad you said it. Dale Earnhardt's loss is no less a tragedy, but the unadulterated praise being heaped on him now is disturbing. Yes, it is great loss for NASCAR, but that does not justify his tactics and attitudes over the years.

[GasPed]

George - perhaps I am a "classless jerk" (I do admit the tone of my opening statement was a little blunt), but I do not back down from my statements about Earnhardt's driving. On the track, it was all about him - the guys in front were always looking their rearviews - knowing full well Dale would bully his way up, banging and bumping, and that they would be next. Well, that kind of racing causes spin-offs and wrecks, and although the fans enjoy it, it's only fun and games til someone gets hurt. I maintain we are extremely lucky that more people have not been injured/killed.

And I resist the notion that Earnhardt's hard driving was like Gilles Villeneuve's or Senna's or even Schumacher's. Even though Senna/Schumacher did use contact on occasion, they never used it consistently as a racing tactic. We can debate the open wheel/closed wheel mentality, but the fact is, when you intentionally contact someone at 200 mph, you are putting two lives at risk, and one of them isn't yours. And that, to me, is the ultimate arrogance.

Having said that, I do agree that the recent NASCAR regs have definitely aggravated the issue, and that changes have to be made. But within every sport, regardless of the rules, some concern has to be given to the well-being of your fellow competitor - this is what sportsmanship is about. And I can honestly say that this concern was sorely lacking in Earnhardt's on-track conduct.

Gas

[JayWay]

When Moore died I had a problem with the over heroization he got. I felt that it would only be right to wait to post my thoughts on it, and I waited for up to a month. In that case I accused the press of being blind idiots, I didn't even bring Greg Moore the person into the equation. For you to label DE as a racing hoodlum and as a prick 2 days after his death is bloody awfull.

DE was always a rough racer, but he was also always loved and hailed as one of the best. So why didn't you post these thoughts before while he was alive? Why 2 days after his death. I just don't get it.

[George Bailey]

GasPed,

It's not open wheel vs closed wheel mentality, it's open vs closed fact, namely if you touch wheels one or both cars are going flying whereas if you touch bumpers or doors one or both of you will be fine 99.99% of the time. You can't compare styles between the two types of racing, they are too different. Dale wanted the other guy to give him room or Dale would make room, just like Senna, Schumacher etc. In F1 that means closing the door, in Nascar that means denting it. It's not any more dangerous because the cars are so different.

[GasPed]

Jay - like most people, I post when I have both the time and the motivation. Up til now I was never motivated to post on Dale E. here because it's not an NASCAR board. Given the recent turn of events, though, it seems to have opened up in that regard. Also, to be frank, I'm a bit of a knee-jerk (pun intended;)) contrarian, and I've never appreciated Earnhardt's tactics (I'm a sissy-boy Jeff Gordon fan), so I waited my requisite two days (it seemed like three) and then posted.

George - I grant you the two forms of racing are different. And so maybe Senna and Earnhardt were, at least in attitude, actually similar - both couldn't have cared less about the other drivers, they just wanted to be in front of them at the end.

But I still do believe that Earnhardt and his tactics put far more lives at risk than Senna ever did. You can claim that contact in the hardtops is safe, but my contention is that this is exactly what is making NASCAR an extremely dangerous endeavour right now - complacency towards close racing and contact in general. It is an accident (no longer) waiting to happen.

Gas

[Dimo]

For what it's worth, GasPed, I'm with you.

I'm not much of a NASCAR fan so I wouldn't feel qualified to start a thread like this, but I shared many of your feelings.

I think you made some good points, and I think they were well thought-out and carefully expressed. People have reacted negatively, which I'm sure you knew when you opened this thread. That's a given.

My two cents worth is I respect your opinion. I think a bunch of others who are currently criticizing may also be respecting that opinion in a few weeks.

I've never been much on social polities...so I didn't have a problem with 'waiting the appropriate period' first. I think that may be the difference between my reaction and many others.

[George Bailey]

Dimo,

His well thoughtout point was that Dale's aggressive style lead to his death because it made Nascar more dangerous than it would have been had DE been a gentleman. That's crap, as is proven by the fact you guys keep ignoring, Nascar drivers, until Sunday, were dying in practice and qualifying - not from driver to driver contact!

How did Earnhardt cause all those single car accident deaths?

[Keith Steele]

There are guys who believe they are bullet proof. Senna did. Earnhardt did. I think Schumacher did before he broke his leg. Hell Eddie Cheever still thinks nothing can harm him in a car. You talk about an usafe driver wacth what he did to Earnhardt in the IROC race. Anyway, I'd be willing to bet that the first thing Dale thought (if there is an afterlife), was "You're kidding me right? I died?!"

Nascar is about rubbing and it is one of the reasons why I am not a huge fan. Though I must admit I enjoyed the second half of the Daytona 500 immensly. These guys were getting sucked into vacuums they had'nt dealt with in recent times and I saw some great driving.

Dale Earnhardt was a tough bird to figure out. He gave a few drivers extra chances nobody else was going to give them. He also played bumper car with his son in an IROC race at Daytona. I dont really know what exactly to make of him. I only began to like him in life ten minutes before he died. I think he was teaching his son how to be the best as he had already achieved most of his goals. When he bumped played door tag with his son he was treaching him how to survive it. He wasnt going to hand Jr. the race(the 5000, which he so easily could have done. Jr. was going to have to get by Waltrip on his own. I am sad Dale Earnhardt is gone, because I like bad guys in my racing. I enjoy rooting against Schumacher only a few levels below rooting for Jacques. And if they're going against eachother that is all the more better. I always liked it best when Jeff Gordon beat Earnhardt because I knew he had beaten the best that day. As for when Earnhardt wrecked Labonte I wasnt half as mad at Earnhardt as I was at Nascar for not penalizing him. Earlier in that race Nadeau had been penalized 2 laps I believe for hitting Jarret. Earnhardt wasnt the problem. Nascar is.

I do know Dale Earnhardt PR machine made him about to be the hard nosed, bull headed, kickin ass takin names Intimidator that wore black. But I think there was more to the guy, just as I know there is more to Schumacher and there was more to Senna. Doesnt change the fact that I don't like them. But I don't hate them either.

[Ivan]

No disrespect to anyone who dies. GasPed, I'm with you on your comment. I watched the replay of the race and I noticed that Dale didn't have to do anything because the finish was going to stand anyway. No one was in a position to make a clean pass. Granted a racer at heart will do what he (thinks he) needs but, his tactic put him at the wrong place at the wrong time. They didn't need to trade paint at this point of the race. Unfortunately rubbin' wasn't racing this time.

[SlateGray]

Gas.

It’s not weather or not you are correct in your opinions regarding Dales driving, it’s the very poor timing of the presentation of your opinion that is bugging some people. You may well be correct Dale may have been an "accident waiting to happen" then again he may not. Take this to hart “never speak ill of the dead” He is/was a hero to many, to them your opinion hurts and is not needed.
Will you post the same opinions if (GOD FORBID) Jacques or Michael are killed in a racecar.
Please just stop.

[GasPed]

No, George, that wasn't my point, though I have seen it posted elsewhere (i.e. live by the sword, die by the sword). My points are:

a) Dale Earnhardt was probably the hardest and one of the most dangerous drivers in NASCAR, not because of a lack of skill, but because he had immense skill, combined with a real lack of sportsmanship on the track.
b) His presence did change NASCAR for good (e.g. popularity), but also, IMO, for the worse. We are very lucky more have not been killed with the bump n' boot tactics.

Lack of taste notwithstanding, I happen to think my points are valid.

Ivan, please don't get my intent wrong. I don't know that Earnhardt went down intentionally on Sterling Marlin any more than Marlin turned up into him. (BTW, it appears that some Earnhardt fans are more certain of this point, since Marlin has apparently gotten a number of death threats over the past couple days). I'm not assigning any blame for the accident itself.

But when you see the NASCAR guys nowadays turning up and down on each other at these high speeds, well, you can point to the Intimidator himself as a driving force behind it.

Gas[p][Edited by GasPed on 02-21-2001]

[GasPed]

Slate - understood and agreed (and if it was MS or JV, you're right - I would've waited longer before posting the same kind of thing about them in AtlasF1). Bye for now,

Gas

[George Bailey]

GasPed,

One last time - why all the practice and qualifying single car accident deaths if it's aggressive racing that has made Nascar dangerous?