81 replies to this topic

[Peat]

Marc Gene has voiced his concern over the lack of track action in Q3:

http://www.gpupdate....ust-be-changed/

So, forum, what would you implement?

Mandatory laps?
Change tyre/fuel rules?
SUPERPOLE shootout?

[Fastcake]

Firstly remove the start on qualifying tyres rule.

Secondly no resetting of times between sessions. That way no Force India sitting in the pits every Q3, if you don't set a time you're right at the back.

[fisssssi]

They tried mandatory laps... that was when they had to burn off the fuel. It wasn't a spectacle and people complained about the poor image it projected.

I think the only realistic option is a top-10 shootout. That way we get everyone setting a lap, no bs about fuel or tyre savings, and 20-odd minutes of action.

Having said that, with the current format we did have some great finishes to the qualifying sessions last year. Even with just the top 3-4 cars fighting it was still pretty exciting!

[Jovanotti]

I loved the times when there were super soft quali tyres, quali bodywork, quali engines and for an hour, everybody went for it.

On a more realistic note, I'd quite like a super pole format with the fastest ten doing a lap alone. On fumes and with no tyre limitations of course.

[sosidge]

Firstly remove the start on qualifying tyres rule.

Secondly no resetting of times between sessions. That way no Force India sitting in the pits every Q3, if you don't set a time you're right at the back.

I don't see that your second point can possibly work. If there is no resetting of times, then they will still have gone faster than everyone who was knocked out in Q1 and Q2 so be guaranteed 10th at best. And there are a whole host of other inconsistencies that would come about if track conditions changed and people weren't setting times that were as quick as Q1 and Q2.

But I wholeheartedly agree with your first point. Qualifying should be for the grid and the grid alone. I doubt anyone would sit in the garage when they had a "free" set of tyres to try and set a time with.

Edited by sosidge, 01 March 2012 - 11:25.

[Fastcake]

I don't see that your second point can possibly work. If there is no resetting of times, then they will still have gone faster than everyone who was knocked out in Q1 and Q2 so be guaranteed 10th at best. And there are a whole host of other inconsistencies that would come about if track conditions changed and people weren't setting times that were as quick as Q1 and Q2.

But I wholeheartedly agree with your first point. Qualifying should be for the grid and the grid alone. I doubt anyone would sit in the garage when they had a "free" set of tyres to try and set a time with.

Well I thought of it quickly on my phone, but you could change it somewhat in having all cars through to the next session reset, with the ones out keeping there times. You would have problems with track conditions changing, but I was trying to think of something better than mandortory laps. Perhaps that would just be best, everyone must do at least one lap each session.

[Mastah]

Firstly remove the start on qualifying tyres rule.

This and problem will be solved. But it's difficult to admit introducing this rule in first place was complete failure (only 1-2% of all times in Q3 in last 2 years were set on prime tyres), isn't it?

[stevewf1]

Firstly remove the start on qualifying tyres rule.

Secondly no resetting of times between sessions. That way no Force India sitting in the pits every Q3, if you don't set a time you're right at the back.

Agree with your first part there... How about a 107% rule for Q3 as well?

Edited by stevewf1, 01 March 2012 - 11:57.

[joshb]

If he's worried about a lack of track action, then a superpole shootout is a no-go
Give them qualifying tyres or a set number of tyres that you can't take into the race, so they have to use them in qualy.

as for the format though, i may be slightly biased but I enjoy the current qualy format

[icewest07]

Firstly remove the start on qualifying tyres rule.

Secondly no resetting of times between sessions. That way no Force India sitting in the pits every Q3, if you don't set a time you're right at the back.

I think the top 10 shootout would be a great idea if the Q3 running order would be reversed from the result of Q2 result (in the way it was back in 2005) i think, each driver at a time.
i think that not only it would improve the show (by imposing a mandatory lap in Q3), but it would also spice up Q2 as every frontrunner would fight to be as high as possible on timesheets (Q2) so that they run last in Q3.
Those who skip their lap in Q3 get a 5 grid penalty from their rank in Q2... and NO change of tyres rules from the current system : which means the Q3 guys start the races with the tyres they used for their Q3 lap!
When it's quali time, i want to see some action, and not just tactics

Edited by icewest07, 01 March 2012 - 12:22.

[Showty]

Make all the teams to start the race in the tyres they used in their best time in any Q session.

[flyer121]

Agree with your first part there... How about a 107% rule for Q3 as well?

What about if they dont meet 107 %?
Send them to the back of the cars they beat in Q1 &2 ...

[mlsnoopy]

Simply keep the times from Q1 and Q2.

[Watkins74]

Q3 is only 10 minutes long. I see plenty of action.

[BlackCat]

No artifical Q sessions at all. 2 training sessions friday, 2 training sessions saturday, fastest lap counts to grid position. If Bernie wants sellable showbiz, get the drivers or team bosses to juggle with fresh eggs or something.

[Coops3]

I think they should have qualifying tyres which they have to hand back after qualifying, and a separate allocation for the race. I don't really see the point in the rule which says the top ten have to start on the tyres they qualified with.

[Gfhuus]

I loved the times when there were super soft quali tyres, quali bodywork, quali engines and for an hour, everybody went for it.

I'm pretty sure the bolded part seldom actually happened.

I think the current format is an ok compromise. Track conditions improve during quali, thus it's really hard to get around the fact that setting your time as late as possible is the optimum solution. Removing tire allocation rules wouldn't really solve that. I also doubt the assumption that because of the tires drivers don't really push for better grid positions. They're trying to eek the maximum out of what they've got and tires are only one constraining factor among many.

Qualis have been boring because of Vettel's dominance. Changing the format wouldn't have helped.

[plastik2k9]

Maybe keep Q1 and Q2 as they are, but then Q3 could be like 2005 qualifying; 1 shot at a hot lap (mandatory), one by one, starting with the guy placed in P10 in Q2. Everyone on option tyres. We'd get to see every lap in Q3 in full. It would be great to see the 6th runner for example (4th in Q2) set a great time, and then watch the last 3 guys try and beat it. Currently we have a situation where we can miss the pole lap, and we're also essentially left waiting at the finish line while everyone passes it in quick succession, waiting to see the green time graphic. Having a single lap would also pile on the pressure to the Q3 guys, which would make for some edge-of-your-seat experiences for us. Q3 has provided that in the last few years, but sometimes it feels like it could be a 5 minute session and be the same, and actually seeing all these laps would be great.

[Clatter]

I think the top 10 shootout would be a great idea if the Q3 running order would be reversed from the result of Q2 result (in the way it was back in 2005) i think, each driver at a time.
i think that not only it would improve the show (by imposing a mandatory lap in Q3), but it would also spice up Q2 as every frontrunner would fight to be as high as possible on timesheets (Q2) so that they run last in Q3.
Those who skip their lap in Q3 get a 5 grid penalty from their rank in Q2... and NO change of tyres rules from the current system : which means the Q3 guys start the races with the tyres they used for their Q3 lap!
When it's quali time, i want to see some action, and not just tactics

I hate the shoot out idea. It will actually reduce the action as it will mean only one flying lap from each driver. whereas most currently do 2 laps.

[Seanspeed]

Firstly remove the start on qualifying tyres rule.

A bit of an alteration:

You dont have to start the race on the exact same tires you qualified with, but you do have to start on the same compound you used to set your best lap.

Teams might still have to use that set in the race, but they could pick where and when they used them, if at all.

[Alarcon]

I'm pretty sure the bolded part seldom actually happened.

I think the current format is an ok compromise. Track conditions improve during quali, thus it's really hard to get around the fact that setting your time as late as possible is the optimum solution. Removing tire allocation rules wouldn't really solve that. I also doubt the assumption that because of the tires drivers don't really push for better grid positions. They're trying to eek the maximum out of what they've got and tires are only one constraining factor among many.

Qualis have been boring because of Vettel's dominance. Changing the format wouldn't have helped.

Everybody with low fuel, same tyres... and just one flying lap with all the pressure in where you have not any place for a mistake. Pure sheer speed! Pure emotion! You can change the Q3, but you can´t change Seb...

I don´t like the 1 hour format and a lot of drivers qualifying lap after lap... Imo the best and much fair way to see the fastest is about 1 (2) flying laps like nowadays, and everybody with the same charge of fuel.

[pingu666]

couple of sets just for that session is the only way really.
pirelli could just chuck whatever compound they wanted as the qualiy tyre. or a random draw at some point. dry qualiy with forced wet tyres might be fun, if somewhat silly

[Schumacher7]

What about if they dont meet 107 %?
Send them to the back of the cars they beat in Q1 &2 ...

But they would meet it barring mechanical failure or driver error (in which case allow them to start 10th), it would ensure everybody runs but I can't really see the point, if Force India think they will be in better form for the race and can make that more interesting then I'd rather they did that, as it is Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari run every qualy anyway and Merc run most.

[MikeTekRacing]

No artifical Q sessions at all. 2 training sessions friday, 2 training sessions saturday, fastest lap counts to grid position. If Bernie wants sellable showbiz, get the drivers or team bosses to juggle with fresh eggs or something.

that assumes track conditions stay the same.

Track improves, temperatures vary (quite a bit), don't even want to think about rain on the 2nd day. you would compare apples with oranges.
with no in season testing you can't waste all your FPs just going for the "quick one".

(and we wont' watch qualy)

[PayasYouRace]

I just think they should get an extra set of tyres or two for each session they progress to. Otherwise it's not fair that drivers have to do more laps but don't get the extra tyres to do it on. Perhaps say 1 extra set for Q2, and another 2 extra sets for Q3. But those sets have to be given back after qualy whether they have been used or not, so that teams don't just stockpile new tyres for the race. With a given number of cars going progressing to each session, Pirelli will know how many extra sets to supply in advance.

[King Six]

The only reason sometimes teams didn't run was because they knew it would be fruitless, the problem is cars not being close enough in terms of pace, or that was the problem in 2011. Once McLaren or Force India believe they can beat the teams ahead of them then they will go out for an extra run as has been proved many times, if they don't, they wont and will save tyres instead.

Otherwise there's no difference going out for an extra run if you have no hope anyway, I guess the punters get to watch cars going around more, but really it makes no difference.

[olliek88]

Leave it, its fine as it is.

[Kubiccia]

I think providing an extra set of option tires would solve the problem.

[pingu666]

they could provide uber soft qualifing tyres if there giving sets away.
just 2 sets for each in the top 10, only used in qualy. take a guess at what little you can do with setup and drive the wheels off the car :]

[hammibal]

I think the top 10 shootout would be a great idea if the Q3 running order would be reversed from the result of Q2 result (in the way it was back in 2005) i think, each driver at a time.
i think that not only it would improve the show (by imposing a mandatory lap in Q3), but it would also spice up Q2 as every frontrunner would fight to be as high as possible on timesheets (Q2) so that they run last in Q3.
Those who skip their lap in Q3 get a 5 grid penalty from their rank in Q2... and NO change of tyres rules from the current system : which means the Q3 guys start the races with the tyres they used for their Q3 lap!
When it's quali time, i want to see some action, and not just tactics

I didnt like the shootout last time it was used and it doesnt factor in changing track conditions like rain so at times could be down to pure luck, also theres less track action

What about if they dont meet 107 %?
Send them to the back of the cars they beat in Q1 &2 ...

I think Gary Anderson suggested something similar but reducing the percentage time, 107% rule in Q3 is too big, even in Q2 we've occasionally seen drivers saving tyres so for Q2 make it 103% of the fastest time and Q3 102% of the fastest time. If you fail to make the target time in Q3 you start behind all the cars that got through to Q2, if you fail to make the Q2 target time you start from the back of the grid. One proviso i would make is if you fail to make the target time but beat your previous best time then you're not penalised because basically the car itself was simply not quick enough.

[Clatter]

I think Gary Anderson suggested something similar but reducing the percentage time, 107% rule in Q3 is too big, even in Q2 we've occasionally seen drivers saving tyres so for Q2 make it 103% of the fastest time and Q3 102% of the fastest time. If you fail to make the target time in Q3 you start behind all the cars that got through to Q2, if you fail to make the Q2 target time you start from the back of the grid. One proviso i would make is if you fail to make the target time but beat your previous best time then you're not penalised because basically the car itself was simply not quick enough.

So if you make a mistake your down a set of tyres and penalised further by being dropped down the grid?

[hammibal]

So if you make a mistake your down a set of tyres and penalised further by being dropped down the grid?

You have more than 1 set of tyres also you can back off and go for another lap

Edited by hammibal, 01 March 2012 - 20:14.

[Clatter]

You have more than 1 set of tyres also you can back off and go for another lap

Not if your sitting in the gravel. And the whole point for the slower guys is to save tyres for the race.

[carbonfibre]

More action at the end?

Bring back the old 12 laps format quali, always much more entertaining in the end just not at the beginning but that could be changed by demanding at least one run in the first 20 minutes for each car.

[hammibal]

Not if your sitting in the gravel. And the whole point for the slower guys is to save tyres for the race.

Well thats the point isnt it too penalise drivers who are saving tyres, you can save tyres but you have to start from the back

[hammibal]

More action at the end?

Bring back the old 12 laps format quali, always much more entertaining in the end just not at the beginning but that could be changed by demanding at least one run in the first 20 minutes for each car.

They would just do token laps on the harder tyre

[Clatter]

Well thats the point isnt it too penalise drivers who are saving tyres, you can save tyres but you have to start from the back

Then they are being penalised. Sorry, but I think it's a totally stupid idea. If they have qualified ahead of others then other than a grid penalty for an offence they should not be moved back down the grid.

[Morbus]

Secondly no resetting of times between sessions. That way no Force India sitting in the pits every Q3, if you don't set a time you're right at the back.

What you said makes no sense. If there's no resetting, how would they start at the back? They already set a time faster than 11th placed.

Also, following your "logic", if it rained in Q3 only, pole would go to 11th place... Nice...

[hammibal]

Then they are being penalised. Sorry, but I think it's a totally stupid idea. If they have qualified ahead of others then other than a grid penalty for an offence they should not be moved back down the grid.

Thats the idea to penalise them especially if they sit out Q3 and do no time

[Clatter]

Thats the idea to penalise them especially if they sit out Q3 and do no time

Damn stupid idea.

[fieraku]

One hour shootout,unlimited tires,start the race on whatever you please.



There,fixed in 5 seconds.

[hammibal]

Damn stupid idea.

I guess you're not one of us that are not impressed when you sometimes see upto 4 cars sit out Q3 or just do token slow laps then?

One hour shootout,unlimited tires,start the race on whatever you please.



There,fixed in 5 seconds.

I think there's an economical problem to how many tyres can be taken to a GP weekend

Edited by hammibal, 01 March 2012 - 21:25.

[Clatter]

I guess you're not one of us that are not impressed when you sometimes see upto 4 cars sit out Q3 or just do token slow laps then?

Whilst I would prefer to see them on track I'm one of those that realises that the race is the main event, and that the teams are trying to maximize their chances when there are actual points to be gained.

[Ulysses777]

Whilst I would prefer to see them on track I'm one of those that realises that the race is the main event, and that the teams are trying to maximize their chances when there are actual points to be gained.

Indeed, it's a shame that some people expect a spectacle from qualifying, when it should be all about the race.

And the tinkering started following the 2002 season, where qualifying actually was more interesting than the race...

[Afterburner]

I wouldn't mind seeing the current Q3 format transform into a ten-car single-lap qualifying session. I liked the single-lap qualifying format and wouldn't mind seeing it make a return.

[jbarokF1]

If I'll be the one to tweak the current Qualifying, I will retain the 3 qualifying session but change Q3 format and tyre rule.

Tyres : Allocate 1 tyre for qualifying sessions that a driver/team prefer. This way, teams/drivers that do manage their tyres very well will have an advantage in later sessions against faster cars that do not manage their tyres as well as the others.

Q3 : 1 lap shootout. Less room for mistakes. With current format, if a driver makes mistakes he can abort the lap and can go for another one..The driver without any mistakes or with the least mistakes should be rewarded. And also with Q3 shootout, Q2 will be more interesting than current Q2 because they will have to make sure to get a fast lap so they will have the advantage of going out last in Q3.

[Sakae]

Thread makes one wonder if we will ever have a Q-format which shall satisfy majority. I am long time on the record that I do not like current format, thus another comments on my part would be quite pointless.

[jbarokF1]

One hour shootout,unlimited tires,start the race on whatever you please.



There,fixed in 5 seconds.

Great! they will use 55 minutes for testing and last 5 minutes to get a qualifying lap.

[maximilian]

When I hear "tire strategy" during qualifying I am about to puke.

The only real solution is strikingly simple:

- eliminate the requirement to start on qualifying tires
- separate the allotment of tires between practice, qualifying and race. Use them or lose them, no carry-overs.

[fieraku]

I think there's an economical problem to how many tyres can be taken to a GP weekend

You'd be surprised how much a tire set costs and in an hour of Qualifying there wouldn't be a whole lot more tires than what they already use.

F1 is not for cheapos anyway,that's why I watch it,cos those guys spare no expense.