Jump to content


Photo

BRM Volume 4


  • Please log in to reply
231 replies to this topic

#151 hillmotorsports

hillmotorsports
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: September 14

Posted 31 January 2016 - 01:53

So Doug....

It is now well into 2016.

Think we'll be able to stop holding our breath this year?

There are some of us turning blue, which is certainly not good at our age.

Hell, we don't dare buy green bananas so don't make us wait TOO much longer....

Am not sure how much stronger I can get my prescription for my glasses, or is the print going to be larger? :cool:



Advertisement

#152 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,877 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 31 January 2016 - 09:43

Doug's article in the latest Motor Sport, on the early development of the H16, gives us a small glimpse of what we have to look forward to.

#153 hillmotorsports

hillmotorsports
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: September 14

Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:37

Thanks Roger.
That read's a tough find on this side of the creek. Would anyone happen to have a link to the article?

#154 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:59

Sorry fellers - I really appreciate your interest (and patience) - but BRM V4 has had to be fitted in as and when other commitments permit.  It remains an abiding interest for me, but I doubt any of you would be much attracted by the pay-rate...

 
DCN   :rolleyes:


#155 proviz

proviz
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: October 06

Posted 04 February 2016 - 10:53

I appreciate what you're saying, Doug, but still hope you'll be spurred on by the achievement of it all!



#156 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 49,326 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 05 February 2016 - 17:50

KICKSTARTER~!



#157 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 985 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 05 February 2016 - 20:03

Patience, people! It took Harper Lee 55 years to come up with the sequel to "To Kill A Mockingbird"...

#158 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 49,326 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 05 February 2016 - 22:12

And the bird was still dead.



#159 Tom Glowacki

Tom Glowacki
  • Member

  • 364 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 05 February 2016 - 22:35

 

Sorry fellers - I really appreciate your interest (and patience) - but BRM V4 has had to be fitted in as and when other commitments permit.  It remains an abiding interest for me, but I doubt any of you would be much attracted by the pay-rate...

 
DCN   :rolleyes:

 

The good news, for Doug, is that there does not have to be a Volume 5.



Advertisement

#160 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 06 February 2016 - 20:03

:p    :up:

 

DCN



#161 Collombin

Collombin
  • Member

  • 4,570 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 07 February 2016 - 14:57

She has also discovered the existence of some papers covered by the 100-Year Rule which cannot be released until 2015: these may shed further light, but seem likely to - at the very least - confirm her researches.


Now that it's 2016 are we able to say if they did and if they do?

#162 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 21,972 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 10 February 2016 - 15:06

I've been wondering about this too. The items in question are letters written by Asquith, presumably to Venetia Stanley as they were given to the Bodleian Library by Anna Gendel, Venetia's granddaughter. One can only assume that they contained nothing to advance Bobbie Neate's theory that Louis Stanley was Asquith's illegitimate son, as she has not updated her Conspiracy of Secrets blog since 2014, nor is there any mention on her Conspiracy of Secrets Facebook page.

#163 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 10 February 2016 - 15:28

There is an updated response to criticism of the book on the Amazon website in which the original detractor pours cold water upon Bobbie's belief that there remain unreleased papers within the Bodleian.  The writer maintains that all Asquith/Stanley documentation is well known, and well understood and flatly maintains that Bobbie has either altered or ignored verifiable facts which conflict with her version of events.  Hmmm - I wonder.  Perhaps someone doth protest too much?  I'm just not at all sure which 'someone' that might be...Bobbie, or her critic...

 

DCN



#164 hillmotorsports

hillmotorsports
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: September 14

Posted 10 February 2016 - 18:24

As interesting as some of the Stanley conspiracy is it is not quite directly on topic....or did his dalliance affect BRMs decline?

#165 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 10 February 2016 - 22:36

Very, very much so...  There is no separating partial cause and effect.

 

DCN



#166 john winfield

john winfield
  • Member

  • 3,115 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 11 February 2016 - 11:39

There is an updated response to criticism of the book on the Amazon website in which the original detractor pours cold water upon Bobbie's belief that there remain unreleased papers within the Bodleian.  The writer maintains that all Asquith/Stanley documentation is well known, and well understood and flatly maintains that Bobbie has either altered or ignored verifiable facts which conflict with her version of events.  Hmmm - I wonder.  Perhaps someone doth protest too much?  I'm just not at all sure which 'someone' that might be...Bobbie, or her critic...

 

DCN

You have my sympathies, Doug. I'm sure Volume IV would be easier to write if Bobbie Neate's claims could be either confirmed or discounted.  On the Amazon site I pressed 'Simon T. Barnes' on the Asquith angle but he never provided clear evidence to support his claim that the book is a load of poorly researched nonsense.  STB is, apparently, a published author but I can find no evidence of this!

As Tim points out, Bobbie N hasn't updated her CofS facebook and website recently - certainly not with exciting 'new' Asquith letters! - but she does claim support from 'professional genealogist' Roy Stockdill. But, following the link, and searching that site, I can't see the relevant 'supportive' post!   Any convincing evidence of either Louis Stanley's background, or of his apparently dreadful behaviour towards Bobbie, seems hard to find.



#167 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 21,972 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 11 February 2016 - 19:33

On the Amazon site I pressed 'Simon T. Barnes' on the Asquith angle but he never provided clear evidence to support his claim that the book is a load of poorly researched nonsense.


I thought that might well be you doing the pressing, John. The main reason Simon Barnes gave (over three years ago) for not revealing more about what he claimed to know was a pending legal action, presumably to do with the book. Is anything more known about this? Did it ever come to court?

#168 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 11 February 2016 - 21:02

There is support - sadly - for Bobbie's view...

 

DCN



#169 john winfield

john winfield
  • Member

  • 3,115 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 14 February 2016 - 08:16

There is support - sadly - for Bobbie's view...

 

DCN

That's dreadful for her and must make it difficult for you to decide how to handle the behaviour and legacy of Louis Stanley throughout Vol IV.



#170 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 14 February 2016 - 08:43

When I compiled my Cooper book, I loved every minute of doing so.  Everybody of any significance who featured in the Cooper story - however crooked, villainous and unprincipled some might have been - was actually also an attractive, entertaining, enjoyable character.

 

The same simply does not apply to the BRM Saga - and much of that is because much of it and its background was absolutely marinated (most unlike Cooper) by the British class structure, attitudes and behaviour of the relevant period. But it remains one helluva story within motor racing history at its most prominent level. And it will be told.  

 

DCN



#171 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 49,326 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 14 February 2016 - 08:43

Hmmm - I wonder.  Perhaps someone doth protest too much?  I'm just not at all sure which 'someone' that might be...Bobbie, or her critic...

 

 

 

The only other review from the chap is on some garden canes:

 

Canes were extremely poor - very thin and spindly despite being described as 'good quality strong'. Some were split. Probably the worst quality garden canes I have seen. The only thing in their favour was the cheap carriage cost but would definitely never buy from this company again.

 

 

Which suggests he is Alan Partridge.



#172 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 21,972 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 14 February 2016 - 08:57

I've just reread Conspiracy of Secrets, just to check that I hadn't missed anything first time round, and that my negative view of Bobbie Neate's theory was justified. If anything, I'm even more sceptical than I was before.

The evidence Neate has found clearly indicates that Louis Stanley (LTS) had to be the illegitimate son of someone very well off, whose name was probably Stanley, and who paid for him to be brought up in a style that his 'mother' Mary Ann Applegate could not have afforded on her own. That part of the jigsaw fits together nicely.

The rest of the theory, linking LTS first to Venetia Stanley and then to Asquith, relies on only two pieces of concrete evidence: the strong facial resemblance between LTS and Asquith, and LTS's claim that he had an uncle called Oliver Stanley (who Neate immediately concludes had to be Venetia's brother, although, as she herself points out, there was at least one other Oliver Stanley who could have fitted the bill).

There is absolutely no evidence that Venetia had a child in the time period in question, and even if she did, there is nothing to suggest that this child might have been LTS, apart from a certain amount of very circumstantial evidence and a vast quantity of airy speculation.

Edited by Tim Murray, 14 February 2016 - 10:20.


#173 Dick Willis

Dick Willis
  • Member

  • 1,095 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 09 April 2016 - 02:51

When I compiled my Cooper book, I loved every minute of doing so.  Everybody of any significance who featured in the Cooper story - however crooked, villainous and unprincipled some might have been - was actually also an attractive, entertaining, enjoyable character.

 

The same simply does not apply to the BRM Saga - and much of that is because much of it and its background was absolutely marinated (most unlike Cooper) by the British class structure, attitudes and behaviour of the relevant period. But it remains one helluva story within motor racing history at its most prominent level. And it will be told.  

 

DCN

 

Doug, Can you enlighten us any further on the "ERA Special" of Raymond Mays as shown on page 74 of BRM book no.1. Did the car actually run in an event and what became of it afterwards ?


Edited by Dick Willis, 09 April 2016 - 02:51.


#174 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 09 April 2016 - 20:03

Without double checking I think you must be referring to the stillborn ERA Special hill-climb car which Raymond Mays had his chaps build, very foolishly using chain drive within forward-facing swinging chain chests which doubled as rear suspension locating members. I was told that when tested it took off from a standing start with first one side's chain winding-up the suspension to force the relevant road wheel down, so theoretically enhancing its traction, but then the other side's chain, then back to the first dependent upon grip achieved, so that the car 'waddled furiously' with its rear wheels in effect tramping furiously, and alternately.  

 

It was a complete failure.

 

When the BRMR Trustees heard that the car had occupied BRM machine shop time, and - worse - was fitted with some of the hyper-expensive experimental Lockheed air strut suspension units intended for the (much heavier) V16 they wanted RM's guts for garters.  The car's fate has always been shrouded in some mystery but I believe on balance that it was quietly broken up and forgotten...

 

Typical of RM, he seems to have invited the press to visit Bourne and to photograph and publicise this personal project without any prior reference to his paymasters within the British Motor Racing Research Trust.

 

When they reacted explosively, first questioning the provenance of some of the components used, then hearing that BRM machine-shop time had been taken up by sprint car work, the Brown Windsor soup hit the fan.  

 

RM would have been completely bewildered by such a reaction. An only child, very much indulged ever since childhood, confident of his own self-image as a national celebrity - the aftermath of this sprint car episode had far reaching impact not only upon his self-esteem but very much moreso upon the way in which he was regarded by the BRM project's Trustees and industrialist backers. When our discussions touched upon the subject he very quickly dismissed it or digressed onto something else - e.g. "Oh Doug I must say that's a very nice shirt you are wearing, where did you buy it?" - "Errrr - my wife gets them from Marks & Sparks..."

 

"Oh!"      :rolleyes:

 

DCN



#175 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 34,289 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 09 April 2016 - 21:12

The Times report of the June 10th 1950 Shelsley meeting suggests that Mays may have originally entered the sprint car for that, although he ran R4D in the end as the sprint car was 'not ready'.



#176 Dick Willis

Dick Willis
  • Member

  • 1,095 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 09 April 2016 - 21:15

Thanks Doug, that explains a lot, in more ways than one !



#177 hillmotorsports

hillmotorsports
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: September 14

Posted 17 June 2016 - 21:05

Roger Clark....
Which Motor Sport issue was Doug's H16 article in?
My search of their archives only shows the January issue for 2016, and the article was not there, nor in the December 2015 issue.
A link would be appreciated!

Doug...can we nudge you along with Vol 4?

#178 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,877 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 17 June 2016 - 22:27

It's in March 2016.



#179 hillmotorsports

hillmotorsports
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: September 14

Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:55

Thanks Roger. Not sure how I missed it previously but found it now.
Interesting article.
I was lucky enough to have seen one of these cars in the British exhibit at Expo 67 in Montreal in 1967. They had it standing on its tail. It was a treat for a 15 yr old to see in person what he had see in the mags. Later that summer I talked my dad into taking us to Mosport for the inaugural Canadian Grand Prix, saw many of my heros in person while wandering the paddock. Sad that kids can't get that opportunity these days.
So much for progress! One the truly good old days, gone...

Advertisement

#180 smbrm

smbrm
  • Member

  • 56 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 06 April 2017 - 15:49

Hi Doug, just wondering if there is any value in enquiring about an update regarding any progress on BRM volume 4? I appreciate all the possible challenges to completing this project. We all keep hoping that one day the final chapters of the saga will be shared.

Cheers

Stephen

Edited by smbrm, 06 April 2017 - 15:51.


#181 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,375 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 06 April 2017 - 16:20

Going back to this Neate business, Stanley had sons who are presumably still alive; and Asquith had sons who had sons, lots of whom are still alive.  If Stanley is descended from Asquith, they all share a Y chromosome, so DNA testing would easily resolve this.  

 

Or has this already been tried?  



#182 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 06 April 2017 - 20:07

Don't spoil a good story with mere facts Allen...  And we should all remember that this can be a deeply personal matter for the people entirely unwittingly - and in some cases unwillingly - involved...whereas for the enthusiastic onlooker, and the merely inquisitive, it's all a merely transient matter of no lasting consequence whatsoever. Essentially it's none of our perishing business.

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 06 April 2017 - 20:09.


#183 Collombin

Collombin
  • Member

  • 4,570 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 06 April 2017 - 21:30

Yes, but this "deeply personal" matter was published and well publicised, and its assumptions and conclusions were certainly responsible for rather more copies being sold than might otherwise have been the case. It was no more of our business at the time of the book's publication than it is now, but I don't recall such inquisitiveness or outside enthusiasm being discouraged at the time the book was being peddled.

Edited by E.B., 06 April 2017 - 21:38.


#184 hillmotorsports

hillmotorsports
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: September 14

Posted 06 April 2017 - 23:05

Doug
I realize I live in Utopia to suggest this but could volume 4 be produced without being overwhelmed with personal and political intrigue?
I do understand that the many personalities are a factor but surely they are not the entire saga....
We Gearheads are dying on the vine waiting for the details of the H-16 and CanAm programs. For some of us there are not that many shopping days til Christmas, and I am not sure of the quality of the internet connections jn the Afterlife to get the end of the story.

Paul

#185 smbrm

smbrm
  • Member

  • 56 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 07 April 2017 - 07:04

Doug
I kind of have to agree with Paul. I appreciate that the personalities can be part of the story. Are there intimate details more appropriate to a separate publication? I am interested in the cars and the racing! I hope a succession plan is not part of sharing the final chapters. Can you provide some insight if there Is hope of this moving forward sooner or will it be later? It has been a long, long wait.

Stephen

Edited by smbrm, 07 April 2017 - 15:09.


#186 DCapps

DCapps
  • Member

  • 489 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 07 April 2017 - 17:31

Personally, I think that Volume 4 can -- and should -- take as bloody well long as DCN wishes to take with it.

 

As for those who are totally uninterested in the context of the narrative and, therefore, any role of the dreaded "politics" and "personalities" that are, in my view, essential to the story of BRM, you simply Do. Not. Get. It.



#187 DN5

DN5
  • Member

  • 395 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 07 April 2017 - 20:07

Understand - but I still would like to read it sometime soon as i started going to races in the time of Stanley BRM.......

 

Geoff



#188 hillmotorsports

hillmotorsports
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: September 14

Posted 08 April 2017 - 00:44

I'm in a similar situation to Geoff....
My dad (a non race fan but tolerant) drove me 4 hrs to the very first Canadian Grand Prix at Mosport in 1967. I was almost 15.
Oh to have those days back....when you could wander the garages freely, watch 4 Ferrari mechanics wrestle a new motor into place with a pipe and chain at 2 am. I actually had a 2 minute conversation with Clark and Chapman before 1st practise Saturday morning.
Tough to get that kind of access now, unless your initials are DCN!
Doug....I feel appropriately chastised. Contrary to my previous post I DO appreciate how the people involved do make the story. I'm just surprised the personal details are so entangled as to take this long to source and record. I am not being critical, just anxious to read the continuation of the saga of one of my favourite teams.

Paul

#189 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 985 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 08 April 2017 - 09:12

What with all the detail of the background shenanigans and carryings-on, I have heard rumours that Vol 4 will be so heavy it will take 4 people to lift it...



#190 rl1856

rl1856
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:42

Unfortunately BRM V4 covers the years in which LTS ran BRM, increasingly divorced from Rubbery Owen patronage.  Much of what happened can be attributed to LTS, the good, the bad and the ugly.  And to understand what happened, one has to understand what motivated LTS, which means delving into his character etc.    One of the strengths of Vol 1-3 is Mr. Nye's attention to the people behind the story.  His chronicling of events is so much more than a narrative of static race results, and proceeding without an understanding of the people behind the results would lessen the value of the resulting narrative.  A line can (and should) be drawn between the germane and the sordid, but there remains much that would provide insight to the interested reader.  Just my opinion and others may differ.



#191 cooper997

cooper997
  • Member

  • 2,420 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 09 April 2017 - 08:50

One suspects Doug wishes 'Saga' wasn't used in the title of his BRM volumes. Because he must find this thread a bit of a saga too.

 

To put things into perspective Vol 1 was published in 1994, then Vol 2 took a further 9 years coming out in 2003. It might just be that a spanner was thrown in the works with Vol 3 coming out early - less than 5 years in 2008. So it's now beginning to equal the gap between Vol 1 & 2, Although you never know, DCN might have hoped it was all to be 9 year gaps. So that means he still has til 2021 on that strategy.

 

Then in movie terms of course, the DCN prequel on ERA... I'm being tongue in cheek on all this - it will take what it takes and suspect the more he is pestered the slower it will get. Unless of course publisher/producers mix up the cheque for JK Rowling and DCN whereby that might make him totally focussed to V4. .

 

Totally unrelated to Volume 4, but still some DCN BRM love...

https://www.goodwood...-favourite-car/

 

Stephen



#192 doc knutsen

doc knutsen
  • Member

  • 594 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 09 April 2017 - 08:52

What with all the detail of the background shenanigans and carryings-on, I have heard rumours that Vol 4 will be so heavy it will take 4 people to lift it...

I wonder if the book will be too large to fit in the standard wooden box for air freight...



#193 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,877 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 April 2017 - 10:19

The first three volumes were unique in my experience for the recollections of the incomparable Tony Rudd and for Doug’s access to to the obsessive record keeping of the Owen Racing Organisation. Rudd's input will obviously be missing from mid-1969 and I don't know whether the record keeping continued as Owen influence declined. The Tony Southgate years were good, but the long decline after that was BRM in name only. I'm know that Doug will tell the story well but it won't have the same fascination for me as the first three and a half volumes.

Edited by Roger Clark, 09 April 2017 - 10:20.


#194 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 1,740 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 09 April 2017 - 14:20

One of the strengths of Vol 1-3 is Mr. Nye's attention to the people behind the story.  His chronicling of events is so much more than a narrative of static race results, and proceeding without an understanding of the people behind the results would lessen the value of the resulting narrative.  A line can (and should) be drawn between the germane and the sordid, but there remains much that would provide insight to the interested reader.

Well said. Looking back to the early years of BRM, the V16 and first 2.5 litre cars reported in Vol 1, it is a very personal story. The motivation to establish BRM was a personal achievement for Raymond Mays and Peter Berthon, but having made the firm they weren't the right people to run it. The kerfuffle (and muddled history) of Maserati 250Fs operated by BRM created a perception that BRM was a team that turned up (occasionally) rather than being run. At the same time, BRM built up a big engineering back end of its own.

 

I think Doug (DCN) wrote a sensitive narrative about the positive attributes of the BRM founders -- and of the solid changes made by Sir Alfred Owen, after it was perceived that a lot of money had been wasted. Sir Alfred Owen did not wish for his money to be spent on holidays. 

 

My sisters (who will be paying for Vol 4 as a Christmas present) expect Vol 4 to be a pleasure to me. Keep it up, Doug.



#195 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 09 April 2017 - 18:33

May I thank everyone for their interest and input...  and perhaps plead for some peace now?  It will happen when it happens.

 

DCN



#196 retriever

retriever
  • Member

  • 545 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 09 April 2017 - 18:47

Whatever the timescale of Volume 4, I do hope that it is published with the wording MRP on the spine. The publisher never really receives the credit due for bringing a book into print as I well know.

 

Do spare a thought and give thanks to the late John Blunsden and his Motor Racing Publications Imprint - a gentleman who brought many worthy titles into print over the years with DCN's BRM volumes probably at the top of the list.


Edited by retriever, 09 April 2017 - 18:48.


#197 Repco22

Repco22
  • Member

  • 945 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 10 April 2017 - 07:22

CCF10042017_00001_zps3lcd9j7u.jpg



#198 hillmotorsports

hillmotorsports
  • New Member

  • 23 posts
  • Joined: September 14

Posted 10 April 2017 - 10:10

What he said ^

#199 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,642 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 17 April 2017 - 19:54

:rotfl:

 

OK, OK, just found this wonderful piece.  Fey Nights now?

 

DCN



Advertisement

#200 JacnGille

JacnGille
  • Member

  • 2,466 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 18 April 2017 - 01:56

What he said ^

:clap: