35 replies to this topic

[inox]

I guess discussing about specific road car here at the technical forum is a bit off topic, but I still like to do that. After all, F12 Berlinetta is quite impressive in many ways. For a background information, the most notable improvements over preceding 599 GTB model are:

- Compression ratio has leaped from 11.2:1 to 13.5:1
- Power increased from 620 hp to 740 hp ( naturally aspirated V12 enlarged from 5999 to 6262cc by increasing bore, specific power increased from 103 to 118 hp/liter )
- Drag reduced from 0.336 to 0.299 (even with 1cm wider front and rear tyres)
- Weight reduced by 55 kg ( from 1580kg to 1525kg )
- Center of gravity lowered by 2.5 cm
- Downforce increased by 76%


1) I'm a bit puzzled why top speed is increased only from 330+ to 340+ km/h. The drag coefficient has been lowered by 11 % and frontal area close to 5% and power increased by 19%. By using cubic formula's the top speed should certainly be well over 360 km/h. Are there short gear ratios or is Ferrari downplaying the top speed?

The aerodynamics are interesting indeed. Take a look at this:


2) What do you think, can that aero bridge thing really improve things?

3) How is that breathed spoiler going to work? On Ferrari's web page they state that: "Blown rear diffucer (the area of high pressure around the rear spoiler is used to alter pressure inside the rear wheelarch to improve efficiency)". Just wondering if this video presents the correct behavior of those holes above rear wheels, or has marketing department just understood it wrongly?

Edited by inox, 16 March 2012 - 18:33.

[Greg Locock]

So far as aero of road going cars are the primary job of the aero boys with spoilers and wings is to make sure that the stylists sketches don't degrade cross wind performance too much. So i wouldn't get too breathless about them. I think the mighty leap in engine numbers may have more to do with fitting a different engine than any great rush of technical development.

Quite a pretty car though, much nicer than the Countach clones.

Edited by Greg Locock, 16 March 2012 - 11:38.

[naiboz]

best looking Ferrari for a while

just a shame about the gimmicky interiors they insist on these day's and that rediculous F1 style rain light on the back

[MatsNorway]

- Compression ratio has leaped from 11.2:1 to 13.5:1

Wow.. mighty impressive that is. Im a bit lost on Superbikes but a few years back they had 12.X:1

Im not sure how much power that jump translates to but im sure someone here could give pointers.

[inox]

When Ferrari replaced Testarossa series with front engined car, they really lost all the drama and passion in the design. Now this car's side profile is a return to Testarossa style in a modern way. It certainly is beautiful and packed with emotion.

I also like that while they have managed to reduce car's dimension by about 6%, the boot capacity has remained at 320 liters. But what's more, the boot is now expandable to unified space of 500 liters. So the practicality is there too.

[kikiturbo2]

Wow.. mighty impressive that is. Im a bit lost on Superbikes but a few years back they had 12.X:1

Im not sure how much power that jump translates to but im sure someone here could give pointers.

new mazda 2.0 litre is 14:1... Their figures were that the jump from 10:1 to 14:1 netted a 9% increase in fuel economy.....

Edited by kikiturbo2, 16 March 2012 - 23:24.

[gruntguru]

1) I'm a bit puzzled why top speed is increased only from 330+ to 340+ km/h. The drag coefficient has been lowered by 11 % and frontal area close to 5% and power increased by 19%. By using cubic formula's the top speed should certainly be well over 360 km/h. Are there short gear ratios or is Ferrari downplaying the top speed?

Third possibility - top speed for previous model was optimistic?

[Powersteer]

When Ferrari replaced Testarossa series with front engined car, they really lost all the drama and passion in the design.

Ferrari has produced some of the best looking cars with front engine prior to the 512 Testarossa, what are you on about?

[kikiturbo2]

Ferrari has produced some of the best looking cars with front engine prior to the 512 Testarossa, what are you on about?

I second that... mid engined ferraris do nothing for me.. it should be V12 in front..

[inox]

Third possibility - top speed for previous model was optimistic?

We may compare it to other model too. Ferrari Enzo has 80 hp less but reached top speed of 355 km/h in the test. Enzo has less frontal area, but also much higher Cd of 0.36, so overall drag is probably quite similar. With extra power F12 Berlinetta should easily go faster.

[inox]

Ferrari has produced some of the best looking cars with front engine prior to the 512 Testarossa, what are you on about?

I was speaking about era after the Testarossa. 550 Maranello looked really dull after 512TR. Not really able to judge older front engined Ferraris as never saw those when they were new. I did like 456 GT though.

I second that... mid engined ferraris do nothing for me.. it should be V12 in front..

I do like shapes of rear engined cars the most, but F12 is really impressive for a front engined car. And it has the most powerful naturally aspirated V12 in the world, which makes it even more beautiful!

Edited by inox, 17 March 2012 - 10:42.

[kikiturbo2]

I had a poke around the car in Geneva, it does look rather brutal....

Having said that, you couldn't pry me off a ZO6 vette with a crowbar..

[Pingguest]

- Downforce increased by 76%

What is, in absolute terms, the amount of downforce exactly?

[kikiturbo2]

What is, in absolute terms, the amount of downforce exactly?

they are probably talking about extra "weight" or vertical vorce on the axle, coming from downforce.. Street cars normally experience lift at high speeds, especially at the rear, but some new supercars actually have some downforce... Now, having very little downforce for start, it is "easy" to get such a huge jump in downforce between generations..

[Canuck]

I recall watching an interview with the then head of Ferrari though for the life of me I can't recall where (predates YouTube at any rate). The gist of things came down to "we're a bit embarrassed by the 512 and wish we hadn't done it." To call the 512 anything outside of boorish and period is a mistake. It's hideous. The 550/599 et al were decidedly sedate looking as a bit of penance for the garishness and gaudiness that was the Testarossa. Pink sweaters tied over the shoulders, heavy gold bracelet and prodigious consumption of "beauty products" were required. By the men.

The GTO is still one of the sexiest cars they've ever produced and at first blush, the F12 looks like a return to that passion. The Testarossa looks like it was styled under the influence of cocaine, the F12 under passion and adrenaline.

[saudoso]

Which 512 you mean? Not the BB or the S/M ones I hope.

[Canuck]

Yes - got a bit lazy there in my thought processes.

[inox]

Some images and comments about "Aero bridge":

http://cdnlive.carde...at-aero-detail/

[inox]

What is, in absolute terms, the amount of downforce exactly?

Ferrari claims 123 kg at 200 km/h for F12 Berlinetta. 599 GTB had only 70 kg.

Edited by inox, 18 March 2012 - 20:39.

[kikiturbo2]

good god, only now did I understand what Pingguest asked... shame on me..

[Paolo]

First they copied the BMW Z3 coupe, and now the Z4...

[Canuck]

Puhleaze...it's clearly an early 70's Corvette clone.

[munks]

Whatever it might be a copy of, it looks pretty good.

[inox]

It will be interesting to see how F12 Berlinetta compares to its arch rival Lamborghini Aventador. The latter has 4-wheel drive which is an advantage on the track and standing start. However, Ferrari is 50kg lighter and has 40 hp more. Both have 690 Nm of torque, but Ferrari reaches it 500 rpm later at 6000 rpm.

Ferrari initially released a press release, where max power of 740 hp was achieved at 8500 rpm. This turned out to be a typo and has been corrected since then to 8250 rpm.
http://www.ferrari.c...rrari-V12s.aspx

Although this difference may appear irrelevant, it actually means there is some 20 hp more at 8250 rpm level than originally thought. It also makes the engine's performance figures even more significant as the max power is reached earlier. This means even higher torque levels at upper rpm range.

Interestingly, Aventador reaches its max power at the same revs (700 hp @ 8250 rpm). Although Aventador's engine is 4% bigger (6498 cc vs 6262 cc), it has 5% less torque and power at 8250 rpm. F12 Berlinetta excels here most likely due to direct injection and extremely high compression ratio of 13.5:1 (Aventador 11.8:1). As Ferrari's red line is also slightly higher than Lamborgihini's (8700 rpm vs 8500 rpm), Ferrari is likely to spent more time on optimal power range. F12 Berlinetta also sports double clutch gearbox for faster gear changes. It seems that on motorway speeds Aventador just can't keep up with the Ferrari.

I'm still confused though why Ferrari claims top speed of only 340+ kph. I think it should easily eclipse Aventador's figure of 350 kph.

[cheapracer]

This is Eric Clapton's one off $4 million 'Built by Ferrari' special that's based on a 458 and supposed to be homage to the 512BB (which happens to be my favorite Fazza).

Apparently $4 million includes a screwdriver so you can adjust the idle yourself ...

[seldo]

This is Eric Clapton's one off $4 million 'Built by Ferrari' special that's based on a 458 and supposed to be homage to the 512BB (which happens to be my favorite Fazza).

Apparently $4 million includes a screwdriver so you can adjust the idle yourself ...

Except this one had no screw-driver - hence the 2500rpm idle...;)

[faaaz]

This is Eric Clapton's one off $4 million 'Built by Ferrari' special that's based on a 458 and supposed to be homage to the 512BB (which happens to be my favorite Fazza).

Apparently $4 million includes a screwdriver so you can adjust the idle yourself ...

Wait, Eric Clapton got Ferrari to make it? Or did he just buy the one off.

[cheapracer]

Wait, Eric Clapton got Ferrari to make it?

Yup he did. Clapton is one of "those" Ferrari clients like Nick Mason that every model is automatically issued to him with a right of refusal and people like Stefano Dominelli personally demonstrate the cars to him.

Not many can go to Ferrari and have them make a one off in house.

[faaaz]

Yup he did. Clapton is one of "those" Ferrari clients like Nick Mason that every model is automatically issued to him with a right of refusal and people like Stefano Dominelli personally demonstrate the cars to him.

Not many can go to Ferrari and have them make a one off in house.

Wonder if any F1 driver has had that sort of privilege. Surely MS would get some sort of royalty.

[kikiturbo2]

Yup he did. Clapton is one of "those" Ferrari clients like Nick Mason that every model is automatically issued to him with a right of refusal and people like Stefano Dominelli personally demonstrate the cars to him.

Not many can go to Ferrari and have them make a one off in house.

actually, if you have enough dosh, ferrari will make you a one off special, and along with the car you will get all the moulds so that they can not make another one.. You do not really have to be all that special.. apart from your bank account..

[Canuck]

If I could - a 330 p3 on modern running gear. Crazy 60's style with minimal updates.

[Wuzak]

If I could - a 330 p3 on modern running gear. Crazy 60's style with minimal updates.

You mean something like this?

http://www.jeko.ru/w...errari-P4-5.jpg
http://jalopnik.com/...5-competizione/

[inox]

Back to the original subject. Although the rear end of F12 seems to be the most controversial part of the car, it is integral part of design concept. Not sure if people have noticed that the rear end actually continues the aero channel/bridge design of the bonnet. The central diffuser section at the rear has a pair in the bonnet in the form of an air outlet. I certainly like the design and the way Ferrari continues the shapes around the car. Even the head lights and exhausts form a pair!

[Canuck]

You mean something like this?

http://www.jeko.ru/w...errari-P4-5.jpg
http://jalopnik.com/...5-competizione/

No. That's plain ugly.

[MatsNorway]

If you ask me the F12 is the Ugly one here.

[Powersteer]

That rear is clearly off from a Ferrari 275 GTB..F12 could be modern version of it.


Does look sexy in that angle doesn't it..

Edited by Powersteer, 13 April 2012 - 21:31.