120 replies to this topic

[funformula]

One thing, I've seen it so many times. Second, there's no logic behind it.

 

The problem with these things is, people like the idea and make a run of it. Journalists are actually morally responsible for vetting their stories, but they often don't, instead writing what people want to believe because it sells copy. The world is sometimes a very primitive place...

 

So the Stappert quote of Höttinger driving an ATS at the Austrian GP in 1980 is a fake, he never said so?

 

My understanding is the driving force behind Höttingers ambitions towards F1 might be indeed not BMW but the people working in the motorsport department. BMW pulled the plug on their F1 ambitions at the end of 1979 as you stated in a post earlier. But wasn´t there a strong opposition in the motorsport department working (finally successful) as a "Guerilla Force" against that decision?

[Michael Ferner]

Sure, I understand. Do you know the sources of this story of Höttinger and ATS?

 

No, I've never heard or read of it. And trust me, at the time I was thirteen and read absolutely EVERYTHING with motor racing content I could la my hands on!

[Michael Ferner]

So the Stappert quote of Höttinger driving an ATS at the Austrian GP in 1980 is a fake, he never said so?

 

My understanding is the driving force behind Höttingers ambitions towards F1 might be indeed not BMW but the people working in the motorsport department. BMW pulled the plug on their F1 ambitions at the end of 1979 as you stated in a post earlier. But wasn´t there a strong opposition in the motorsport department working (finally successful) as a "Guerilla Force" against that decision?

 

A fake? I don't know, I've never seen it! You talk of a Stappert "quote", but all you do is to **claim** he said something. Show me a quote, and a source, or just stop this nonsense. Oh, and the mechanics in the Motorsport GmbH had much more political power and money than the BMW board, of course. Who needs a powerful board to help leapfrogging twohundred drivers with better credentials into an F1 cockpit when you have the BMW mechanics on your side! O'zapft is!

 

And now spare me this nonsense, I want to do something worthwhile today!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 01 March 2021 - 20:44.

[Arjan de Roos]

Am I adamant? I bring up sources that give an idea on what was really going on. I am also NOT fully convinced, but heard Rainer Braun mention it before. He was there, both of us were not.

Is it a Fact? We are discussing here to see what we can uphold, before we call it really nonsensical. 

 

Did I confirm ATS. No. I did bring up the statement that he had introduced himself to Schmidt for a possible 1981 seat. Was BMW involved? He was helped by BMW into F2 and into M1. Yet he did go for F1 on his own.

Also I tried to unearth the link as ATS-BMW was still three years away. He would have driven ATS-Ford.

 

Also it is stated in various sources that he wanted to report his F1 debut in the Austrian TV-show Sport am Montag. 

 

Lets find out how far this is fancy speculation!

[Arjan de Roos]

No, I've never heard or read of it. And trust me, at the time I was thirteen and read absolutely EVERYTHING with motor racing content I could la my hands on!

 

How often did the stories in the back ground appear in all the magazines. Most often appear years later. 

[funformula]

To be honest I don´t recall that Stappert quote either at that time. But hey, I was 14 at that time and all my motorsport knowledge came from newspapers and magazines.

 

Are there only mechanics working in the motorsport department? I bet there must be a director overseeing the operations and pulling the right strings.

 

 

Now over to some worthwile stuff 

[dolomite]

Reported in Motor Sport February 1980 edition:

"The name of Talbot is to return to Grand Prir racing. The French arm of the former Chrysler company plans to field a two-car team of 1.5-litre turbocharged cars in 1981 and has contracted Jochen Neerpasch, currently head of BMW Motorsport, to run a new competitions department. Talbot have bought the rights to develop BMW’s 1.4-litre, four cilinder, iron block turbocharged engine. Former Matra and Ligier personnel have been recruited. — C. R."

 

https://www.motorspo...ter-formula-one

 

[Arjan de Roos]

Rainer Braun in his book "Hallo Fahrerlager":

 

Nach Höttingers Tod sagt Dieter Stappert erschüttert: „Er war dazu bestimmt, Österreichs neue Nummer eins zu werden. Alle Weichen waren gestellt, bei seinem Heim-GP in Zeltweg hätte er schon erstmals im Formel-1-Auto sitzen sollen. .."

 

"After Höttinger's death, Dieter Stappert said, shocked: “He was destined to become Austria's new number one. The course was set, at his home GP in Zeltweg he should have been in a Formula 1 car for the first time."

[Michael Ferner]

"Hey, I heard Stephen Hawking has said the moon is made of green cheese!"

 

"As it happens, I read Einstein said the same thing! So it's a fact, and all those damn' scientists are full of ****!"

 

 

Whatever happened to Critical Thinking?

 

https://www.skillsyo...l-thinking.html

[Arjan de Roos]

Hallo Michael,

 

I know we are talking about another what-if in motorsport history. But can you just be less aggressive in your posts while we try to gather traces, leads, evidence. We are not here to make things up. Yet we look for clues to where a F1 debut of said driver was: Zeltweg, or 1981, or 1983 or never.

We indeed may never get the full truth to the surface. But your approach is not working. I bring up two sources who were pretty close (Braun, Prüller). Maybe there are more, even possibly denying the Zeltweg debut.

 

Here is a third lead:

 

AutoRevue (7&8 2020)

"Am 14. April 1980 wollte Markus Höttinger in „Sport am Montag“ sein F1-Debüt ankündigen, vermutlich mit ATS. Es ging sich um einen Tag nicht aus."

"On April 14, 1980, Markus Höttinger had wanted to announce his F1 debut in “Sport am Montag”, presumably with ATS. It was a day to short."

 

Siegfried C. Strasser

(Dr. Siegfried C. Strasser, Motorsporthistoriker)

[Michael Ferner]

Try this simple exercise to help you to start thinking critically.


Think of something that someone has recently told you. Then ask yourself the following questions:

Who said it?

Someone you know? Someone in a position of authority or power? Does it matter who told you this?

 

What did they say?
 

Did they give facts or opinions? Did they provide all the facts? Did they leave anything out?

 

Where did they say it?
 

Was it in public or in private? Did other people have a chance to respond an provide an alternative account?

 

When did they say it?
 

Was it before, during or after an important event? Is timing important?

 

Why did they say it?
 

Did they explain the reasoning behind their opinion? Were they trying to make someone look good or bad?

 

How did they say it?
 

Were they happy or sad, angry or indifferent? Did they write it or say it? Could you understand what was said?



I don't know, I was taught this in school. Don't they teach that anymore?

[Charlieman]

Whose interest is served by a story?

Different players in a team have motives for telling stories to the press. Journalists have their own reasons for reporting them, even tales which they believe to be untrue. 

 

Oh what a tangled tale we weave...

[Michael Ferner]

I'd never heard of Herrn Strasser before, so I googled - well, this will tell you all you need to know:
 
 
https://www.rally-mo...gfrid-strasser/
 
 

Er war auf dem besten Weg, Niki Laudas Nachfolge anzutreten, der nicht mehr im Kreis fahren wollte. Die unnötige Härte Derek Warwicks, der wusste, dass Mike Thackwell schneller war, ihn aber trotzdem am Überholen hindern wollte, führte zu dem Unfall, der Markus das Leben kostete.

"He was on his way to become a new Niki Lauda, but the needlessly tough Derek Warwick, who knew that Mike Thackwell was faster but still tried to thwart him, led to the accident that killed Markus Höttinger."

 

Ach so, Herr Starsser.

[68targa]

Crikey, that seems a bit rich pinning it on DW.

[Henk Vasmel]

Since I remembered Höttinger fondly, I took some time to look things up in period sources. 

Nr. 1 was Heinz Prüller's Grand Prix Story 1980. He spends two pages in the introduction of the Austrian GP with stories about Höttinger. Yet nowhere he mentions that it was planned to enter him in an ATS. The possibility is mentioned, as well as some connection with Arrows (German Warsteiner money). But nothing definte. For me that means that the story was known at the time (not now, 40 years later), but it was just a story.

Then I happened to find som cuttings from Motor Sport Aktuell, 16 April 1980. An almost full page obituary by Mario Rall. Again, nothing definite about Formula 1 entries is mentioned, just a bright future.

I quote one line: "Dass man ihn in Oesterreich schon zum grossen Lauda-Nachfolger gestempelt, praktisch schon den Weg aufgezeichnet hat, den es von nun aus zu begehen gilt, das alles hat seine Aufgabe sicher nicht leichter gemacht".

 

PS. his starting position for this, his 7th F2 race was 14th. Promise was there, but he needed to improve things before being ready for F1.

 

Two persons to ask would be Dr. Helmut Marko and Marc Surer. The first we regularly know where he is, but rather difficult to reach, I suppose. Surer is probably easier to reach, but even the, I wouldn't know how.

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 02 March 2021 - 18:39.

[Rob Ryder]

You are on TNF Arjan and you forgot Rule 1..... Ferner is always right   

[GMiranda]

Since I remembered Höttinger fondly, I took some time to look things up in period sources. 

Nr. 1 was Heinz Prüller's Grand Prix Story 1980. He spends two pages in the introduction of the Austrian GP with stories about Höttinger. Yet nowhere he mentions that it was planned to enter him in an ATS. The possibility is mentioned, as well as some connection with Arrows (German Warsteiner money). But nothing definte. For me that means that the story was known at the time (not now, 40 years later), but it was just a story.

Then I happened to find som cuttings from Motor Sport Aktuell, 16 April 1980. An almost full page obituary by Mario Rall. Again, nothing definite about Formula 1 entries is mentioned, just a bright future.

I quote one line: "Dass man ihn in Oesterreich schon zum grossen Lauda-Nachfolger gestempelt, praktisch schon den Weg aufgezeichnet hat, den es von nun aus zu begehen gilt, das alles hat seine Aufgabe sicher nicht leichter gemacht".

 

PS. his starting position for this, his 7th F2 race was 14th. Promise was there, but he needed to improve things before being ready for F1.

 

Two persons to ask would be Dr. Helmut Marko and Marc Surer. The first we regularly know where he is, but rather difficult to reach, I suppose. Surer is probably easier to reach, but even the, I wouldn't know how.

Dr. Marko would be absolutely unreachable for someone with no name on the area, but I can send you Marc Surer's email contact.

[ReWind]

Now HistoryFan could be of use. He is a real journalist after all and should be able to arrange an interview with the Doktor.

[Arjan de Roos]

You are on TNF Arjan and you forgot Rule 1..... Ferner is always right   

 

Rule 1 is to behave in a gentlemen/ lady like manner. 

[funformula]

You are on TNF Arjan and you forgot Rule 1..... Ferner is always right   

 

TNF class representative is playing schoolmaster at times...so we untaught pupils get hitten with the pointer on our fingers

[GMiranda]

Good evening!

I've been cross-checking new magazine data, including with people who understand German and have translated excerpts from articles done after the fact on the sad stories of Markus Höttinger and Hans-Georg Bürger. I also spoke as Rainer Braun, probably one of the greatest German journalists ever and a friend of both.

First of all, there is one thing that, in history, has to be assumed. Apart from the facts that happened and are documented, everything else is relative. History is not, never has been and never will be an exact science and involves many people and, consequently, a multitude of opinions and individual memories that are infinite.

What I have ascertained is the following:
According to Rainer Braun and other sources, there was indeed talk of a Markus Höttinger F1 debut at the 1980 Austrian G.P., which was to be announced the day after his tragic death, although the ATS connection was only a rumour. Everything indicated that if there was a possibility of him racing - and, as we all know, many announcements never materialise - it would be with a German team or one whose main sponsors were linked to the German and Austrian market.
It is also true that the current that defended BMW's entrance in F1 and that lobbied for that to happen (and it did), which included Dieter Stappert, believed that Höttinger was very talented and, if he continued to materialise that talent in good performances and results, he would be BMW's option for Formula 1. Indeed, he was regarded as the biggest promise in Austrian motorsport at the moment.
Finally, it is also said that Hans-Georg Bürger was even more naturally gifted in single-seaters than Markus Höttinger, but age played against him.

As we are talking about possibilities that were on the table, one cannot assume that there is an absolute truth. It is perfectly plausible that being Austrian and supported by BMW; there could be some talks with a team and possible sponsors for him to debut at the Österreichring, as long as the results keep up. Of course, it could also have been something said after his death, and traditionally when someone dies young and being considered promising, there are lots of stories about what could happen. In other words, in my opinion, I think it's wrong to assume an absolute truth.