105 replies to this topic

[john_smith]

I agree with Bundle that seeing the lapped cars unlapping themselves, slicing past all the weaving cars, looked downright dangerous.

This rule was re-introduced to avoid the situation where "the show" was being damaged by drivers being prevented from fighting for position after a safety car by having a lapped car in the way.

Sure, this is true, but it's also damaging the show by extending the safety car period by 1-2 laps unnecessarily, as we saw in Melbourne.

Brundle mentioned the cars on the lead lap are meant to stay on the racing line and the other cars are meant to unlap by going off the racing line. But the cars will inevitably intersect each other because the racing line criss crosses the width of the track. Everyone will always be constantly weaving, accelerating, and braking to keep temperature in their tyres, brakes, KERS, etc. To ban weaving would open another can of worms safety-wise in having cold tyres on the restart.

To have a rule where cars are required to dodge and drive past these weaving cars, and extending the safety car period in doing so, I think, is utterly unnecessary and dangerous. The rule should be removed.

[slideways]

I like the new rule as I am forever sick of SC restarts being ruined by out of position cars.

Rather than unlapping themselves through weaving traffic, it might be a better option for the lapped cars to pull off the racing line, slow down and allow all lead lap cars to pass them.

FIA could also enable the flashing brake lights on all lapped cars at that time for a visibility aid.

Edited by slideways, 19 March 2012 - 06:48.

[FredrikB]

I agree with Bundle that seeing the lapped cars unlapping themselves, slicing past all the weaving cars, looked downright dangerous.

This rule was re-introduced to avoid the situation where "the show" was being damaged by drivers being prevented from fighting for position after a safety car by having a lapped car in the way.

Sure, this is true, but it's also damaging the show by extending the safety car period by 1-2 laps unnecessarily, as we saw in Melbourne.

Brundle mentioned the cars on the lead lap are meant to stay on the racing line and the other cars are meant to unlap by going off the racing line. But the cars will inevitably intersect each other because the racing line criss crosses the width of the track. Everyone will always be constantly weaving, accelerating, and braking to keep temperature in their tyres, brakes, KERS, etc. To ban weaving would open another can of worms safety-wise in having cold tyres on the restart.

To have a rule where cars are required to dodge and drive past these weaving cars, and extending the safety car period in doing so, I think, is utterly unnecessary and dangerous. The rule should be removed.

They simply need to fine tune the way the cars unlap themselves.
Make it mandatory for the cars on the lead lap to stay on the right side of the track at a certain point for example.
Then the backmarkers can stay on the left side while unlapping themselves.

Problem solved.

[walkindude]

Lapped cars should just slow down and join at the back rather than lapping the circuit.

[goldenboy]

it's my favourite rule change actually

[FredrikB]

I like the new rule as I am forever sick of SC restarts being ruined by out of position cars.

Rather than unlapping themselves through weaving traffic, it might be a better option for the lapped cars to pull off the racing line, slow down and allow all lead lap cars to pass them.

Simple solution

[Brother Fox]

Its going to be an awesome show until a trackworker is killed by a paydriver getting back to the conga line.

Letting them drop to the back would also allow them to do 5 km's less wouldnt it?

[razno]

Maybe lapped cars should go to pit to drive trough with sc. That way they wont be problem for leaders and racing...
Or like someone said - let them slip to the back, but not unlapped...

Edited by razno, 19 March 2012 - 07:04.

[muramasa]

They simply need to fine tune the way the cars unlap themselves.
Make it mandatory for the cars on the lead lap to stay on the right side of the track at a certain point for example.
Then the backmarkers can stay on the left side while unlapping themselves.

Problem solved.

sth like that can easily be done at home straight or any DRS zones, of both potential and actual.

also sth like flashing yellow flag to mean unlapping going on.

apart from circuits like Monaco, letting lapped cars through shouldnt be issue for drivers I reckon, I'm not driver of course but I imagine they can learn and get used to quick imo.

[SirRacer]

Stay right and slow down during the first DRS zone while they have the back red light flashing.

Easy, fast and clean...

[jee]

They should drop back to the end instead of unlapping them. Send them through the pits before the restart, problem solved.

[faaaz]

It is no doubt stupid trying to overtake cars that are weaving around. Dropping back seems a lot more logical.

[Baddoer]

They should drop back to the end instead of unlapping them. Send them through the pits before the restart, problem solved.

This will give them fuel advantage

[SirRacer]

This will give them fuel advantage

Letting them do a higher speed lap to unlap themselves also gives them higher tire temps advantage, so...

Edited by SirRacer, 19 March 2012 - 08:09.

[Jejking]

Letting them do a higher speed lap to unlap themselves also gives them higher tire temps advantage, so...

Why do you think the SC came in before the backmarkers actually got back in line?

[alfa1]

I like the new rule as I am forever sick of SC restarts being ruined by out of position cars.

Are you also sick of ther fact that under normal racing conditions, the lead driver gets by the lapped car before the second guy?

As far as I'm concerned the safety car is to add SAFETY for trackside workers, not to add excitement for viewers.
The situation before, should be the situation after.

Safety car comes out while a mess is cleaned up, then goes back in. No added spices or gimmicks

[Rob]

As far as I'm concerned the safety car is to add SAFETY for trackside workers, not to add excitement for viewers.
The situation before, should be the situation after.

Safety car comes out while a mess is cleaned up, then goes back in. No added spices or gimmicks

Agreed. Cars should not be passing the safety car under any circumstances.

[freya]

Best solution would be if they could put a tank there to blow the lapped cars up.

[ensign14]

Best solution is to scrap the SC. Couldn't really see any reason why they had it in Australia, Petrov was well over to the right, and if a car was going to hit his, chances are that they'd've hit the wall in any event.

If the safety car were for safety, why do they bunch up everyone behind it and thus increase the chances of a racing collision?

[Rob]

If the safety car were for safety, why do they bunch up everyone behind it and thus increase the chances of a racing collision?

Because having marshals run on to the track when the cars are at racing speeds would be a hell of a lot more dangerous!

[ImDDAA]

Best solution is to scrap the SC. Couldn't really see any reason why they had it in Australia, Petrov was well over to the right, and if a car was going to hit his, chances are that they'd've hit the wall in any event.

If the safety car were for safety, why do they bunch up everyone behind it and thus increase the chances of a racing collision?

The safety part has the marshals in mind.

[johnmhinds]

Best solution is to scrap the SC. Couldn't really see any reason why they had it in Australia, Petrov was well over to the right, and if a car was going to hit his, chances are that they'd've hit the wall in any event.

The safety car was for the track workers, not to stop other cars hitting Petrov's abandoned car.

Didn't you see the huge recovery truck they had driving down the pit straight? Do you want an F1 car to hit one of those?

[Baddoer]

[rolf123]

SC is a "show car", not a "safety car". Been this way for quite some time.

Safety is irrelevant here. The car wasn't even brought out for reasons for safety and rarely is.

[Supersleeper]

I agree with Bundle that seeing the lapped cars unlapping themselves, slicing past all the weaving cars, looked downright dangerous.

It did, and it was, because the organisation of it was poor. Lapped cars overtaking should occur in the DRS zone(s) only. It should be a straight - cars can keep to the racing line, and the DRS zone will allow the lapped cars to pass quickly, but safely.

edit. Agree with SirRacer.

Edited by Supersleeper, 19 March 2012 - 09:46.

[Kraken]

How many times has Brundle said that weaving makes no difference to the tyre temps as the cars are going too slowly? He can't have his cake and eat it.

Not to mention that it was the first time a lot of the drivers have done it this way so there's bound to be a few gremlins to sort out. That's what driver briefings are for.

[Dunder]

It's a bad rule from every perspective.

[NJB13]

I'm a little worried that the HRT won't be able to overtake the SC in full flight

[hammibal]

Maybe lapped cars should go to pit to drive trough with sc. That way they wont be problem for leaders and racing...
Or like someone said - let them slip to the back, but not unlapped...

Thats a good idea as they pass the pits lapped cars could be informed to drive through the pits and then rejoin the pack at the back, however personally i dont like artificial races the new SC rule is there too spice up the racing but i guess F1 will still never be as bad as what we see in America

[sharo]

SC implementation in recent years is becoming more and more stupid. If (supposedly) the best drivers in the world can't cope with a car on the grass on a wide S/F straight, how are they the best?
Currently it's simply one more tool in the hands of FIA to make artificial "racing", influence the final result and nothing more.

[LiJu914]

Just slowing down and line up or doing this via the pitlane won´t work. I think, you can´t trick the timing system (i´m pretty sure that any sort of possibility to manipulate the system is inhibited) so they would still be a lap down...

[Fourjays]

I think it is better than having them mixed in with the leaders. Seen a few times before (Brazil 2010 and Singapore 2011 come to mind as particularly dangerous cases) that at the restart they ignore blue flags and almost cause accidents because of the massive speed difference. However, they do need to find a better way for them to make the move.

[ensign14]

The safety car was for the track workers, not to stop other cars hitting Petrov's abandoned car.

Didn't you see the huge recovery truck they had driving down the pit straight? Do you want an F1 car to hit one of those?

Well, firstly, they didn't need to recover Petrov's car there and then, and, secondly, if something is so serious as to warrant trackworkers being on the track, they should red-flag the race. But that's bad for The Show, apparently.

[slideways]

Are you also sick of ther fact that under normal racing conditions, the lead driver gets by the lapped car before the second guy?

As far as I'm concerned the safety car is to add SAFETY for trackside workers, not to add excitement for viewers.
The situation before, should be the situation after.

Safety car comes out while a mess is cleaned up, then goes back in. No added spices or gimmicks

Way to selectively quote my post and ignore my suggestion.

[johnmhinds]

Well, firstly, they didn't need to recover Petrov's car there and then, and, secondly, if something is so serious as to warrant trackworkers being on the track, they should red-flag the race. But that's bad for The Show, apparently.

Pretty sure they're not going to get any kind of insurance cover for events these days if they leave abandoned cars smoking at the side of the track like that.

You're making it sound like you'd be happy to see someone get hurt (pit crews, marshals, drivers, spectators) just to make "the show" better for you.

[scheivlak]

This will give them fuel advantage

Lapped cars have a fuel advantage anyway because they have to drive one lap less

I'm against unlapping- not because it's dangerous but because lapped cars get something they don't deserve. Send them back at the end of the pack, as suggested.

[ashnathan]

I too have always thought they should just let them pull over and drop to the back but then it might stuff up the live timing of the cars with cars not running the correct amount of laps etc

[BlackCat]

i'm for unlapping - or at least lapped cars should not be between leaders. what i was missing was the rule: "SC out, pit entry shut" - nobody is running out of gas now and pit stop under yellow gives unfair advantage.

[ashnathan]

i'm for unlapping - or at least lapped cars should not be between leaders. what i was missing was the rule: "SC out, pit entry shut" - nobody is running out of gas now and pit stop under yellow gives unfair advantage.

I too think pitting under safety rule should return but at the same time it did really ruin some races but it also provided alot of excitement, coupled with DRS these days and no running out of fuel maybe they should revisit this.

[Shevek]

I like the new rule as I am forever sick of SC restarts being ruined by out of position cars.

As others have pointed out, if there were no accident and SC deployed those lapped cars would be in any case between the leader and the followers. Why should be removed completely the advantage that the leader has managed after perhaps 40 laps, erasing not only the time difference but also removing the obstacles he has overcome, while the others haven't? In what way is it remotely fair?

[sharo]

@Shevek

[Fastcake]

I'm still for lapped cars shuffling back instead of passing the safety car. They'll still be lapped this way, which is arguably better anyway as they shouldn't get a free lap back, and they won't be in anyone's way. Having this done by going through the pits is the best idea as well - the rule should be the lap before the safety car comes in all lapped cars go through the pits.

[PayasYouRace]

Shavek

I never liked this rule the first time and I don't like it. The track positions should be frozen when the SC comes out and everyone form up behind the leader. Simple as that. If the 2nd place driver had a backmarker between himself and the leader then he'd have to deal with it on going green. However, if it must be done, I like some of the suggestions here. The unlapping process was a mess. If they mandated it in the DRS zones or through the pits it would be safer, and less confusing.

I don't mind that the pits stay open. When the pits used to close and then open it was rather dangerous when half the field would pit at the same time. With the delta-times and there isn't a mad rush to the pits and the cars pit with larger gaps between them, so it's safer.

For the actual calling of the SC in Melbourne. I think it was unnecessary in the sense that there should have been a way to push Petrov's car off the pit straight without having to send a massive truck to collect it. It wasn't smashed up so there should have been a gap in the wall that marshals could have pushed it into under double waved yellows. However given the unfortunate design of the circuit the truck was necessary, so the SC was needed.

I too have always thought they should just let them pull over and drop to the back but then it might stuff up the live timing of the cars with cars not running the correct amount of laps etc

It shouldn't be a problem for the timing system. It just takes the positions as they cross the various timing lines. It would just be as if they stopped and let the drivers though under green. Unless you mean they should drop to the back of the queue and get their lap back, in which case that would be very unfair. Either allow the cars to unlap themselves or go to the back and stay a lap down.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 19 March 2012 - 11:39.

[ensign14]

You're making it sound like you'd be happy to see someone get hurt (pit crews, marshals, drivers, spectators) just to make "the show" better for you.

Quite the opposite. The last driver to be killed came straight after a "safety" car; the last two marshals to be killed came near the start of a race when cars were close together, as they are after a safety car. Artificially bunching the field makes it MORE dangerous, not less.

[Fortymark]

I'm still for lapped cars shuffling back instead of passing the safety car. They'll still be lapped this way, which is arguably better anyway as they shouldn't get a free lap back, and they won't be in anyone's way. Having this done by going through the pits is the best idea as well - the rule should be the lap before the safety car comes in all lapped cars go through the pits.

It became quite clear that the officialls hadn´t really thought this through.
Imagine in Monaco, we could have another SC incident because of the first one.

It´s much much better if the faster car overtakes the cars which should be lapped
instead.

[johnmhinds]

Quite the opposite. The last driver to be killed came straight after a "safety" car; the last two marshals to be killed came near the start of a race when cars were close together, as they are after a safety car. Artificially bunching the field makes it MORE dangerous, not less.

But you'd be more than happy to leave abandoned cars at the side of the track?
Doesn't that make it more dangerous as well? Can't have it both ways my friend.


And you're confusing correlation with causation anyway in both cases you gave.

The marshals were both killed by flying tyres, a problem that has been reduced with wheel tethers.

And Senna wasn't killed by his cold tyres after the safety car, he was killed when suspension pierced his helmet after he hit a concrete wall at full speed, again something that has been greatly reduced with safety measures that have been added to the tracks and cars since then.

There is nothing fundamentally unsafe with the safety car procedure itself.

Edited by johnmhinds, 19 March 2012 - 12:04.

[slideways]

As others have pointed out, if there were no accident and SC deployed those lapped cars would be in any case between the leader and the followers. Why should be removed completely the advantage that the leader has managed after perhaps 40 laps, erasing not only the time difference but also removing the obstacles he has overcome, while the others haven't? In what way is it remotely fair?

Because without that rule it's a somewhat unfair advantage to the leader. Take a scenario when cars 1,2,3 have been within a second or two, fighting for the lead over the race, and then half way through passing traffic the safety car comes out.

There are 2 backmarkers ahead of the leader and 2 each between 1-2 and 2-3. The SC picks up the leader, eliminating his traffic, but cars 2 and 3 are not allowed to pass them until the SC line, giving the leader more of an advantage than before the SC was called.

Admittedly, the majority of the time a SC is called the leader loses a valuable advantage, but I think lapped cars have no place holding up cars on the restart, whether it's 2nd place or 15th that's being handicapped by them.

[slideways]

I'm still for lapped cars shuffling back instead of passing the safety car. They'll still be lapped this way, which is arguably better anyway as they shouldn't get a free lap back, and they won't be in anyone's way. Having this done by going through the pits is the best idea as well - the rule should be the lap before the safety car comes in all lapped cars go through the pits.

I think using the pits is a great idea but if there is a SC within a pitstop window it could become dangerous. Maybe keep the pits closed on SC, with the first lap around mandating all lapped cars to drive-through, and then open the pits to all cars the following lap (causing +1 more than normal SC lap).

[Slowinfastout]

Imagine in Monaco

good point lol

[fieraku]

With the new rules (cars will have starters) there is no need for SC. Stop on track,turn off your car,crew cleans track,start car,green flag,race...simple...I know tires get cold/need heat...well tough luck...Safety 1st!