911 replies to this topic

[garoidb]

Very close between Vettel and Alonso, Vettel's ability to pull something out the hat when he needs it most gives him the edge, just.

Kimi and Lewis next up, but under the right conditions just as good as top two. I think we will find out a lot about Hamilton this year as i think he needs to give Rosberg a good beating, Rosberg is fast but not top class.

Button and Webber next up and a bunch of drivers who could be brilliant but have to prove it such as Hulkenberg

This is close to how I see it, with Massa also in the Button and Webber class (now that he has gained back some form). It is not a top three or four any more, but a top two. Alonso is the fixed reference. We have seen him under so many different situations that his stock is unlikely to go up or down much. The same could now be said for Kimi. Vettel and Hamilton could yet go up or down a level, depending on how much of their apparent potential is really there.

[Kingshark]

He has terrific car control. One of the top 4 in F1, I'd say. But Raikkonen is a bit of a car control alien. The most salient difference between Hamilton/Alonso and the other two is that they make more championship-costing errors.

I disagree with that. Both Lewis and Fernando are very consistent.

You just rated Massa as better than Button, 3 places ahead. You shouldn't be the one questioning others!

Careful now, you are a Raikkonen fan. I wouldn't be trash-talking Massa if I were you, it doesn't necessarily reflect well on your boy.

Yes, I did rate Massa #5, because I believe he's a good qualifier, solid racer, and underrated in the wet. When he has the confidence he needs, he's an excellent driver.

Edited by Kingshark, 18 May 2013 - 17:33.

[Zoetrope]

After 2012 I thought it was Hamilton vs Alonso, but this year Vettel impressed so far, so bump for him. No clear winner for me, we would have to put them into same car

[SpaMaster]

I disagree with that. Both Lewis and Fernando are very consistent.


Careful now, you are a Raikkonen fan. I wouldn't be trash-talking Massa if I were you, it doesn't necessarily reflect well on your boy.

Yes, I did rate Massa #5, because I believe he's a good qualifier, solid racer, and underrated in the wet. When he has the confidence he needs, he's an excellent driver.

Oh, don't worry about me. You please go ahead and explain how Massa is better than Button, and three places at that. I am all ears. Yes, he is a good qualifier, when he has confidence blah blah. But qualifying is just a part of Grand Prix racing. Button is a much better racer and would mostly school Massa in the wet. So, no that explanation is not good enough. Try again.

[discover23]

Brazil 08 - massa can easily be a WDC by now.
I think he is faster than Button - Button way stronger mentally.

[Winter98]

1. SV or KR
3. FA or LH

Edited by Winter98, 18 May 2013 - 17:51.

[beute]

not gonna give a proper rating, but for me it's clear that there is pretty much nothing between vettel/alonso/hamilton/raikkonen.
they made up the top4 last year and they are currently doing it again.

rosberg can be up the as well, he was just a bit to unlucky to show it.

[superdelphinus]

what has kimi done that is more impressive than button, say?

[2ms]

You could say that about any driver except Vettel. Alonso has 1 more WDC than, but his 2 were in the all-conquering Renault R25 and R26, which was just as dominant if not more so than 2 of the cars Vettel won WDCs in. You could say Kimi should have won 2003 and 2005 were it not for bizarre tire rule that was immediately repealed at end of season and hopelessly self-destructive engines (which would mean he should be tied with Vettel with 3x as many WDCs as any driver in F1). etc etc other silliness ad nauseum.

The only way things will be "proven" is if we see more of these guys in common teams. People seem to consider Alonso vs Hamilton a draw since Alonso jumped out of that situation in a tie. If we're lucky, we'll see Kimi against Vettel next season. In my opinion, that will settle it. But of course it won't for everyone, because some think other drivers are better.

Edited by 2ms, 18 May 2013 - 20:28.

[PurpleHam]

Hamilton has been the best driver since he entered the sport.

No amount of Mclaren balls ups can cloud that fact...

Edited by PurpleHam, 18 May 2013 - 20:32.

[Kingshark]

You could say that about any driver except Vettel. Alonso has 1 more WDC than, but his 2 were in the all-conquering Renault R25 and R26, which was just as dominant if not more so than 2 of the cars Vettel won WDCs in.

Do you even know the meaning of the word "dominant"?

In 2005, McLaren clearly had the fastest car. Alonso and Renault won the championships that year because of consistency and reliability.

Fact of the matter is, if it wasn't for reliability, McLaren would have won every race from San Marino to Japan. That's 15 potential race wins, equal to the # of races Ferrari won in 2004. Therefore, how on earth anyone can call the 2005 Renault dominant is laughable.

As for 2006, again, you are twisting the definition of the word dominant. Ferrari and Renault were very evenly matched that year, so once again, the R26 although it was a good car, was by no means dominant.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 May 2013 - 05:37.

[oligc94]

Hamilton has been the best driver since he entered the sport.

No amount of Mclaren balls ups can cloud that fact...

You're giving reasonable Hamilton fans like me a bad name!

[Skinnyguy]

Anyone arriving to any sort of strong opinion about the order of the top 4 guys is totally deluding him/herself. I wouldn´t dare to make any suggestion on long term, only I could say is who´s been doing a better job recently, and that is an ever-changing thing.

Watch out for Rosberg, he´s earning a place in these 4 guys´ league, just as I suspected he would do.

[PurpleHam]

You're giving reasonable Hamilton fans like me a bad name!

He ripped Alonso a new one in his rookie season, and half a dozen drivers on the grid could have done what Vettel has done in those Newey Rocketships.

If they all drove the same cars, Hamilton would soon be banned from the sport...

[undersquare]

Anyone arriving to any sort of strong opinion about the order of the top 4 guys is totally deluding him/herself. I wouldn´t dare to make any suggestion on long term, only I could say is who´s been doing a better job recently, and that is an ever-changing thing.

Watch out for Rosberg, he´s earning a place in these 4 guys´ league, just as I suspected he would do.

Yeah there's no definitive solid data, and a lot of wiggle room. Anyway I thought the best driving in 2012 was done by Hamilton, but people find it hard to separate the driver from the car and team just like Sebi was dubbed 'Crash Kid' in 2010 when it was mostly the car failing.

Yes Nico has been amazing, and yet he's been in the sport 7 years so how has he flown under the radar all this time? ISTR he used to make quite a few mistakes, and he lacks the dominant aura of the top guys I'd say. That aura/aggression might come though, depending on Lewis and his learning curve.

[ApexMouse]

He ripped Alonso a new one in his rookie season, and half a dozen drivers on the grid could have done what Vettel has done in those Newey Rocketships.

If they all drove the same cars, Hamilton would soon be banned from the sport...;)

retch.

[PurpleHam]

retch.

Truth hurts my friend..

Alonso knows who the best is, there's only one driver he talks about.

[Skinnyguy]

Yes Nico has been amazing, and yet he's been in the sport 7 years so how has he flown under the radar all this time? ISTR he used to make quite a few mistakes, and he lacks the dominant aura of the top guys I'd say. That aura/aggression might come though, depending on Lewis and his learning curve.

He hasn´t been under the radar, at least for me. He showed flashes of speed from day 1 (Bahrain 2006 was epic from him), he showed great consistency over a season then in 2009 & 2010, and from then on it´s been just wait time till he got a good car and a world class teammate. He´s been sort of a Kubica for me, someone who I suspected was top, but lacking a chance to confirm it.

I think a lot of people tipping him as the "cruise and collect" kind of guy are up for a surprise, it´s one of the most stupid and undeserved tags a current driver has been imposed if you ask me. I still remember some radio yada-yada tipping him as a hot-head before some starts in 2006 And he really was. I really hope the best for him, he wasted enough of his career performing great without big prizes. Time to make hay.

[Kingshark]

Rosberg deserves at least one championship-winning car. I want Brawn to do another 2009 next year, then we'll finally see Nico's potential fulfilled at its maximum.

[Anderis]

Yes Nico has been amazing, and yet he's been in the sport 7 years so how has he flown under the radar all this time? ISTR he used to make quite a few mistakes, and he lacks the dominant aura of the top guys I'd say. That aura/aggression might come though, depending on Lewis and his learning curve.

I think Nico was in the wrong place at the wrong time by most of his F1 career. I always thought he was stand-out in 2009 and early 2010 and not always got the praise he deserved. As a Williams fan I was delighted with Nico's performances in 2009. I wanted the driver of my favourite team to drive exactly like that. I think 2009 was a groundbraking season from him. Earlier he wasn't consistent enough. In mid 2008 he was making so many mistakes that I even started to doubt if he's good enough to lead a midfield team.

Problems with Nico's reputation came from his cars and team-mates. Since he had never had a car/team capable of consistent podium finishes, he couldn't prove he is a driver capable of this. And he couldn't win much reputation due to his team-mates. Dominating Wurz and Nakajima wasn't enough to earn a reputation of a top driver. So that he couldn't earn it also by beating Schumi- as long as Michael wasn't going to dominate him, people would always say he was nowhere near as good as during his prime.

Now Nico has his chance to finally earn the reputation he deserves. I think he needs to beat or stay very close to Lewis in terms of performance at least for 2 years in row. If he has only one good season against Lewis, he will be called another Button. It will not be an easy task for sure. It would not surprise me if Lewis starts getting a clear edge over him at some point. But it will not surprise me either if Nico can beat Lewis throughout the period they will be team-mates. We still don't really know how good he is, I think he needs at least 1,5 seasons against a driver with established opinion of being top or very good driver as a team-mate to prove this. But the fact that Rosberg's talent wasn't realised for a long time doesn't mean it wasn't there. People are blind and as I said earlier, if you followed Nico closely during 2009 or 2010 season, you should've already realised some signs that he was not necessarily going to be trashed by first top driver he would get as his team-mate.

[ApexMouse]

Truth hurts my friend..

Alonso knows who the best is, there's only one driver he talks about.

See everybody? This is why driver threads are banned.

[oldracer1957]

Top 5
1. Hamilton:
- the best all rounder out there. Or as Frank Williams put it: "He`s got it..."
- He is incredibly fast
- He has proven he score podiums or win races with cars that were not the best.
- He has the technical skills to setup a car
2. Alonso:
- Should have been number 1
- However there has always been questions regarding his raw speed/ qualifying speed
- He was beaten by a rookie Hamilton
3. Raikönnen
- Just like Hamilton and Alonso a very good all rounder
- However being beaten by Massa during his second Ferrari year didn`t help him much.
- But has shown a good rebound since driving for Lotus.
4. Vettel
- no doubt he is fast
- however I also believe the car has flattered him
- no way he would have won the WDC in a McLaren 2010, in a Ferarri 2011 or a Lotus 2012.
5. Rosberg/ Button
- not much to chose from between two of them.
- Rosberg being a good qualifier, Button being not a good racer, but an astute racer.
- If Rosberg/ Button were one and the same person they would probably be (on the same level with Alonso) a top class driver. unfortunately neither is Rosberg, nor Button.
[note worthy among the rest? Perhaps Hulkenberg and Bianchi]

Edited by oldracer1957, 19 May 2013 - 08:14.

[Jimisgod]

He ripped Alonso a new one in his rookie season, and half a dozen drivers on the grid could have done what Vettel has done in those Newey Rocketships.

If they all drove the same cars, Hamilton would soon be banned from the sport...;)

I've heard of one eyed fans... you must have no eyes.

Forgot to mention that Button beat Hamilton in 2011, not just tied on points. So does that make Button the best?

1. Alonso.

Of all his teammates, none ever came close except Hamilton. Almost won in 2010 and 2012 with cars that were probably 3rd fastest, and definitely behind the RBRs. Been a bit sill this year, actually. Malaysia ha should have felt the wing falling off. Still, best driver of the post-Schumacher era.

2. Raikkonen.

The post 2012 model Kimi seems to be the smoothest driver out there. He was naturally faster than Alonso before 2006, but has kind of turned into Mr. Consistency and is good with the tyres. Just how he was able to take 3rd after a comeback when Schumacher was floundering... very skilled. Still, he lost to Massa in 2008.

3. Vettel.

Yes he had Newey rockets and is an annoying person, but he just keeps on winning somehow. Monza 2008, his comeback in Brazil 2012. Still, unchallenged by a truly competitive teammate.

4. Hamilton.

Equaled Alonso in 2007, but has been fast but fairly inconsistent since. Only just won in 2008 against Massa, had too many brain fades in 2010 and 2011 and has only just made himself into a driver as consistent as Alonso in 2012. Lost to Button in 2011.

5. Rosberg.

Three years in Mercedes and he beat the legend Schumacher by a wide margin every single year. Seems to be almost matching Hamilton at Mercedes.

Edited by Jimisgod, 19 May 2013 - 00:00.

[sheepgobba]

I think Nico could have a say maybe? His performances against Hamilton have been impressive so far. Just needs a championship winning car.

[Kingshark]

I think that it's nice/surprising to see that Rosberg is finally receiving the credit he deserves. I've been a fan of his ever since his debut drive at Bahrain 2006, and IMO he deserved much better cars than what he's gotten up and until this point in his career.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 May 2013 - 20:05.

[SpaMaster]

Top 5
1. Hamilton:
- the best all rounder out there. Or as Frank Williams put it: "He`s got it..."
- He is incredibly fast
- He has proven he score podiums or win races with cars that were not the best.
- He has the technical skills to setup a car
2. Alonso:
- Should have been number 1
- However there has always been questions regarding his raw speed/ qualifying speed
- He was beaten by a rookie Hamilton
3. Raikönnen
- Just like Hamilton and Alonso a very good all rounder
- However being beaten by Massa during his second Ferrari year didn`t help him much.
- But has shown a good rebound since driving for Lotus.
4. Vettel
- no doubt he is fast
- however I also believe the car has flattered him
- no way he would have won the WDC in a McLaren 2010, in a Ferarri 2011 or a Lotus 2012.
5. Rosberg/ Button
- not much to chose from between two of them.
- Rosberg being a good qualifier, Button being not a good racer, but an astute racer.
- If Rosberg/ Button were one and the same person they would probably be (on the same level with Alonso) a top class driver. unfortunately neither is Rosberg, nor Button.

How about Button beating Hamilton during his second McLaren year? How about Trulli beating Alonso once too? Hamilton has the technical skills to set up a car? Who doesn't?

[Cool Beans]

1. Alonso.

Of all his teammates, none ever came close except Hamilton. Almost won in 2010 and 2012 with cars that were probably 3rd fastest, and definitely behind the RBRs. Been a bit sill this year, actually. Malaysia ha should have felt the wing falling off. Still, best driver of the post-Schumacher era.

Trulli gave him a pretty good run for his money in 2004. Got 1 win to Alonso's 0 and lead him in the championship quite clearly until the last 3 races when he was sacked by Briatore. I'd say that qualifies as 'coming close'.

[Kingshark]

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but when Trulli was besting Alonso in 2004, Fernando was only 22 years old and still on a learning curve. Massa beat Raikkonen during the prime years of his career. There's a big difference between the two.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 May 2013 - 07:27.

[SpaMaster]

STRAWMAN CLUTCH! In that case, how old was Alonso when he was beaten by Hamilton? How old was Hamilton then?

Edited by SpaMaster, 19 May 2013 - 07:28.

[bourbon]

A year later...

1. Vettel/Raikkonen
2. Hamilton
3. Alonso
4. Button/Massa
5. Rosberg/Perez

[Kingshark]

STRAWMAN CLUTCH! In that case, how old was Alonso when he was beaten by Hamilton? How old was Hamilton then?

22.

Thanks, you just convinced me that Hamilton might be the best driver out there.

Though Hamilton > Massa as far as I'm concerned, so you know what that means?

[Cool Beans]

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but when Trulli was besting Alonso in 2004, Fernando was only 22 years old and still on a learning curve. Massa beat Raikkonen during the prime years of his career. There's a big difference between the two.

It was his 3rd full season in F1, 4th if you count the year he spent as Renault's test driver after his Minardi season.

[Kingshark]

Facts are:

- Alonso out-scored Trulli 101 vs 80 points during their 31 races together for Renault.
- Massa out-scored Raikkonen 213 vs 195 points during their 43 races together at Ferrari.

Therefore, even if I take age out of the equation, the initial point Spa-Master and Cool Beans made is still invalid.

[Radion]

1. Alonso = Räikkönen
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4.Rosberg
5.Massa
6.Hulk
7.Button
8.Grosjean
9.Perez
10.Bianchi

By the by: Guys, please stop feeding the troll...

Edited by Radion, 19 May 2013 - 07:47.

[Kingshark]

By the by: Guys, please stop feeding the troll...

It's amazing how angry some people will get over nothing but facts? After all, that's all I stated.

I countered their initial claim that Massa - Raikkonen was similar to Trulli - Alonso. Does that make you mad?

[Radion]

It doesn't make me mad, it makes me boring.
It's just that, you're stating these facts in every thread räikkönen is mentioned.

We got it by now, he lost out against massa in 2008. So what? That's not as embarrassing as getting beaten by a rookie driver...

[Kingshark]

We got it by now, he lost out against massa in 2008. So what? That's not as embarrassing as getting beaten by a rookie driver...

Are you saying Massa is faster than Hamilton?

And just so you didn't notice, I do consider Raikkonen top 4 material, but I feel he's overhyped on this site (overhyped and overrated are not the same thing). Perhaps it's because his fanbase is so huge, but often I feel that the amount of credit he gets for everything outweighs his (undoubtedly large) driving talents.

[rasul]

We are very lucky to have so many great drivers on the grid. It's very hard to choose the best and I think personal likes/dislikes play a huge role when people choose the best driver.

Personal sympathies aside(the two top drivers are actually the ones I like the least), I believe it's:
1) Vettel - overall a very complete driver: excellent qualifying, very good race craft, mentality of a winner and everything it entails, a proven multiple WDC who is still very hungry. Destroyed his teammates both in STR and RBR. Tends to up his performance towards the end of the season. Granted, he's yet to win a title in another car, but the other top drivers haven't accomplished that, either.
2) Alonso - qualifying isn't his strongest point, but his race craft and starts are excellent; he's a proven WDC who consistently fought for the title for many years. Very convincing in teammate battles but for 2007 when he got outperformed by a rookie(and no matter how talented Lewis was, he was just a rookie).
3) Kimi - Q is not his strongest point, but race craft and tyre management are excellent. Smart driving. Very consistent. However, the fact of getting beaten by Massa remains.
4) Lewis - unlike the other three drivers, he's the only one who beat a WDC teammate when he was a rookie. I consider him the fastest driver out there, but unfortunately, being fast isn't enough. Lewis is not consistent, too dependent on outside factors. He was excellent last season, but he hasn't been a genuine title contender for many years, despite having a good car. However, the talent is there, perhaps he's even the most talented out of the top drivers, but his talent remains largely unfulfilled.

Edited by rasul, 19 May 2013 - 08:14.

[SpaMaster]

22.

Thanks, you just convinced me that Hamilton might be the best driver out there.

Though Hamilton > Massa as far as I'm concerned, so you know what that means?

Looking forward to edit your ranking post to state that Hamilton is the best driver then?

[oldracer1957]

I've heard of one eyed fans... you must have no eyes.

Forgot to mention that Button beat Hamilton in 2011, not just tied on points. So does that make Button the best?

You forgot to mention that Hamilton beat Button in 2010 and 2012. Perhaps makes Button not the best...

[oldracer1957]

How about Button beating Hamilton during his second McLaren year? How about Trulli beating Alonso once too? Hamilton has the technical skills to set up a car? Who doesn't?

How bout it? How about Hamilton beating Button in 2010 and 2012.

[Infinityl]

I guess you forgot about 2007 then? Since Hamilton-the-rookie beat alonso on equal cars? This is what i´m talking about regarding alonso fans, they dont consider reality.

You seems to forget 2010, 2011 and 2012 where Alonso beat Hamilton in a worse car.

Sometimes is better to have a worse car but to have a team fighting for you than a better car but a team fighting against you.

PD: Alonso best driver by far.

[Kingshark]

I agree with 2011, but I disagree about Alonso having a worse car than Hamilton in 2010 or 2012. In 2010, Ferrari and McLaren were spot-on evenly matched. As for 2012, although the McLaren was quicker, the Ferrari was much more reliable.

[Zava]

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
= 2. Vettel

4. Raikkonen
5. Massa
6. Rosberg

7. Hulkenberg
8. Button
9. Webber
10. Perez

not bad, but personally I'd put Raikkonen as 5th, and Massa as 4th, because I don't know if you know, but Massa beat him in 2008.

[SpaMaster]

How bout it? How about Hamilton beating Button in 2010 and 2012.

Don't keep moving the goal post. You are the one who was talking about one specific year. If you agree that you were wrong on that front, then we will move to continue discussing multiple years. I suggest you think twice before you go down that route.

[MikeV1987]

not bad, but personally I'd put Raikkonen as 5th, and Massa as 4th, because I don't know if you know, but Massa beat him in 2008.

To me thats like saying Button is a better driver than Hamilton just because he beat him in 2011, even though he clearly isn't better.

Edited by MikeV1987, 19 May 2013 - 08:31.

[Cool Beans]

Facts are:

- Alonso out-scored Trulli 101 vs 80 points during their 31 races together for Renault.
- Massa out-scored Raikkonen 213 vs 195 points during their 43 races together at Ferrari.

Therefore, even if I take age out of the equation, the initial point Spa-Master and Cool Beans made is still invalid.

For some reason you left out Tarso Marques also out-scoring Alonso at Minardi. So the initial point I made is very valid, there are drivers who have 'come close' to Alonso. Actually Alonso has more (3) team mates that have out scored him than those who haven't (2).

[PurpleHam]

How about Button beating Hamilton during his second McLaren year? How about Trulli beating Alonso once too? Hamilton has the technical skills to set up a car? Who doesn't?

Maldonado and Massa had more to do with Button beating Hamilton that season than Button himself.

Like I have said before, a fair team mate comparison is to tot up all the races where both finish races without retirements or collisions, I believe James Allen did that on his site once and Hamilton was a clear winner over their 3 seasons together at Mclaren.

Go back to 2007/8 and watch Hamilton on proper racing tyres, go watch how he eats into gaps ahead of him, people forget just how he can hunt down a car like no other, and once he gets there, he will pass you, it's guaranteed.

Alonso only talks about one driver...Hamilton only talks about one driver, because they know what we know, that they are the two best in the sport.

Edited by PurpleHam, 19 May 2013 - 08:34.

[Kingshark]

To me thats like saying Button is a better driver than Hamilton just because he beat him in 2011, even though he clearly isn't better.

He was being sarcastic, obviously.

Zava, aren't you ever clever? Smart and funny.;)

For some reason you left out Tarso Marques also out-scoring Alonso at Minardi. So the initial point I made is very valid, there are drivers who have 'come close' to Alonso. Actually Alonso has more (3) team mates that have out scored him than those who haven't (2).

What? Alonso's outscored 6 teammates (Grosjean, Massa, Trulli, Fisichella, Villeneuve and Piquet) and and only been beaten in the championship by 2; and even on both of those occasions, it was the count-back rule that decided it.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 May 2013 - 08:50.

[Torsion]

For people sighting Kimi getting beaten by Massa in 08, we have to remember that in addition to circumstances being against the Finn as discussed elsewhere, he was beaten by a Massa who was at the top of his game - and who was fighting Hamilton for the championship, loosing at the end narrowly.

Kimi also raced Massa on equal grounds within the team, which isn't really the case for most of Alonso's latter career, except in 07, where he was beaten by Lewis.

At the end, surely it wasn't great for Kimi to get beaten by Massa in 08, but we have to remember it was a totally different driver to what Massa is now.

Edited by Torsion, 19 May 2013 - 08:52.