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Unidentified Formula B car


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#1 Allen Brown

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:17

Can anyone identify this Formula B car? I bought this transparency recently on eBay and all I can figure out is that it was taken at Riverside in 1971 or 1972.

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#2 D-Type

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 21:04

It says "Kasprzycki .. something" on the end plate. I googled Kasprzycki and all I found was Jan Kasprzycki an artist and Kasprzycki Designs - they are both based in Hawaii so could there be a Danny Ongais connection? Tenuous, I know.

Any idea what the "something" is?

#3 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 21:11

A Crossle of some kind? The side pods seem similar but the screen shape seems wrong.....

#4 Allen Brown

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 21:13

I have no idea what it is Duncan. I thought maybe a Winkelmann but it doesn't seem to be - or maybe a LeGrand Mk 6 but I'm only suggesting that because I don't know what a LeGrand Mk 6 looks like!

I'm genuinely stumped on this one.

#5 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 21:35

Now I am pretty sure its a Forsgrini with funny fuel tanks - hope this helps. When I say Forsgrini I meant Lotus 41 - the giveaway is the missing top front radius rods. It is a fairly donald Lotus 41 but there are a lot of points of similarity - I think.

Edited by Simon Hadfield, 22 March 2012 - 22:02.


#6 Bloggsworth

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 22:48

Must say that at first glance I immediately thought Lotus. At second glance I thought Lotus 41ish front and top bodywork, but the sides seem to have been on a course of steroids - Maybe someone added tankage for longer distance races.

#7 Allen Brown

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 23:21

There is a Lotus 41 here for comparison but I can't say how donald it is

http://www.oldracing...9/southwestdiv/

#8 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 23:27

I am pretty sure it is a 41, front lower wishbone leg, bodywork, what I think are six bolt wheels, rear radius rod angles, etc.
And donald, derived from the vernacular -donald ducked - f***** ( as I am sure you knew...)

#9 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 00:02

Doesn't it droop a bit in the middle?

#10 E1pix

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 00:45

I Googled 'Kasprzycki Formula B' in every which way and only came up with folks with that name. It's an unusual name and really close to an old friend's name from Milwaukee. It seems the name may be the clue, beyond SCCA records and such.

That kinda looks like a Lotus badge on the nose to me... and if those are fuel tanks, with such a spring rate they look like a barn-burner waiting to happen. :eek:

Edited by E1pix, 23 March 2012 - 00:48.


#11 gdonahoe

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:09

I believe I recognize the helmet as Frank Monise Jr. Riverside early seventies would be correct and he ran number 25. This will be easy to confirm.

#12 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:26

It says "Kasprzycki .. something" on the end plate. I googled Kasprzycki and all I found was Jan Kasprzycki an artist and Kasprzycki Designs - they are both based in Hawaii so could there be a Danny Ongais connection? Tenuous, I know.

Any idea what the "something" is?

However it looks like he was in LA prior to 1976. No doubt Allen you'll ask Frank?

Edited by Andrew Fellowes, 23 March 2012 - 02:27.


#13 Bloggsworth

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:27

Geoff Monise, dragster driver, grandson of:

Geoff was born in Glendale, CA to a family of racers & race fans. Geoff watched grandfather, Frank Monise, have much success in Lotus' and for BRE Datsun. His father, Frank Monise Jr., also had a successful Formula Atlantic career on the west coast and in 2006, began building his own 1965 MG Midget to race with VARA and after a year of building, began racing it in 2007.


Southern Pacific SCCA Formula B 1969 Championship 11. Frank Monise Jr Lotus CSCC 5 pts - Haven't yet come across a model No. for his Lotus

Apparently Frank Jr still races, sharing an Austin Healey Sprite with his two sons.





#14 E1pix

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:02

Frank's a name I surely recalled above...

Of minor consequence I realize, but I looked in my SCCA Runoffs entry lists from 1972 on and do see Frank Monise, Jr. of Pasadena, wearing #25 in FB in 1975, and self-sponsored by Frank Monise Motors.... by then running a Brabham BT29. Frank finished 3rd in SCCA's Southern Pacific division National season points, consistently one of the three best of seven divisions then [along with Northeast and Central divisions]. To those recognizing the name, I found it interesting that 4th in SoPac points was none other than Pete Halsmer.

I did cover that race then, and in my report I list all top 11 and only finishers... so Frank must have DNFed. Bobby Rahal won that Championship in fine style over Jim Crawley and Eric Kerman.

Edited by E1pix, 23 March 2012 - 08:06.


#15 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:30

I would think the rather tasteful add ons, both roll hoop and side pods, are a result of the period international rule changes (and then taken up by the SCCA) to bag tanks and roll hoop width and height. If you think of the change from BT29 to BT35 at Brabham you will get the idea.


And Allen, about the drooping in the middle - ducks are made that way!

#16 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:06

I have emailed Frank Monise Motors and will let you know their reply.

#17 RonPohl

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 15:47

I agree that it is probably Frank Monise in a lotus 41. I was probably at that race with my brabham but have no recollection of that car. I do recall racing against frank in 72 or 73 at riverside but by than he had a bt-29. I recall that race well, since we were racing pretty close when we hit something slick in T-2 and both of us went for a bit of a wild ride. Hard to forget.

#18 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 16:54

Ron, I have two pictures of BT29s at that race but I'm not entirely sure who the drivers are. The #88 is probably Dick Doherty and the #16 may be John Angus. But I'm guessing really.

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#19 RonPohl

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 17:06

Ron, I have two pictures of BT29s at that race but I'm not entirely sure who the drivers are. The #88 is probably Dick Doherty and the #16 may be John Angus. But I'm guessing really.

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The number 16 is definitely John Angus. The 88 is a bit of a puzzle to me. No front wings.... Also, the helmet looks like Ron Dykes. I don't recall dykes in a brabham, but he was a hired gun who could show up in anyone's car. It's been a few years, but I remember Doherty in a March 722 run out of Wilbur Bunce shop.

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#20 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 18:43

The number 16 is definitely John Angus. The 88 is a bit of a puzzle to me. No front wings.... Also, the helmet looks like Ron Dykes. I don't recall dykes in a brabham, but he was a hired gun who could show up in anyone's car. It's been a few years, but I remember Doherty in a March 722 run out of Wilbur Bunce shop.


That fits very well. Only a couple of days ago I noticed an advert placed by Dick Doherty for his Brabham BT29 in early 1972 when he mentioned that it had been driven in SCCA events by Ron Dykes. So that means the pictures were probably taken in 1971, not 1972. There were two Nationals at Riverside in 1971, one on 13 Feb and one on 18 Jul. The normal trick to decide between two such dates would be to check the state of the vegetation but this is Riverside so it always looks the same to me - parched!



#21 E1pix

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 19:24

I suspect this would be the July race. So Cal in February, even in the Mojave, should have hints of green at the very least.

#22 Cynic2

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 22:03

This is Joe Starkey's Lotus 41C at Opelousas, Louisiana in 1967, from the same angle as the original photo. There are some striking similarities to the "Unidentified" Formula B.


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Edited by Cynic2, 23 March 2012 - 22:05.


#23 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 22:16

Great picture David - and yes, that's the car for sure!

#24 D-Type

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 22:52

This is Joe Starkey's Lotus 41C at Opelousas, Louisiana in 1967, from the same angle as the original photo. There are some striking similarities to the "Unidentified" Formula B.


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And several differences: the exhaust, the engine cover (or lack of), the roll bar brace, roll bar cross piece, wings (or lack of), side tanks[?] (or lack of), the angle of the can-shaped thingie between the trailing arm pivots etc. As some are things that rarely get changed, I would say that these are not the same car. But what do I know?

#25 E1pix

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 00:30

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I think Cynic2 nailed it with this comparative photo to the Monise car on Post #1, and it's easier to see if studying both photos together. I see many, many more similarities than differences... and many of the differences are explainable variants and evolutions in the 4-5 years between the photos.

Nose opening and angle, general nose and cockpit slope angles both top and bottom, front suspension cutouts and links, dash and windscreen shape and mounting points, cockpit layout behind driver's shoulders, rear links, all of these are absolutely identical. Comparing the rear suspension links to the roll hoop, the Monise roll hoop is clearly taller and seemingly of a larger-gauge tubing as well, perhaps modified for added bracing and wing supports, and/or a taller pilot. The rear of the windscreen is shorter on the Monise car, my guess is someone broke the tail end of it getting out of the car... note the lack of rubber stripping along the windscreen's rear when the windscreen was trimmed back.

The fuel tanks/pods do not look like a factory item at all, certainly not clean enough for Mr. Chapman's impeccable eye I wouldn't think. The wings could be explained away for lots of reasons... but mainly wings weren't widely used until 1968/1969 anyway... and perhaps the engine cover was removed on what had to be a scorching day in July.

Same chassis IMHO.

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Edited by E1pix, 24 March 2012 - 00:37.


#26 RonPohl

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:19

Most role bars had to be modified in the late 60's when SCCA required the hoops to be 2 inches higher than the top of the of the drivers head.

#27 David McKinney

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:22

My interpretation of what Allen was saying was that cynic2's photo confirmed that the 'mystery' car was a Lotus 41, not that it was the identical car

#28 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:20

My interpretation of what Allen was saying was that cynic2's photo confirmed that the 'mystery' car was a Lotus 41, not that it was the identical car


Correct David - thanks

#29 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:05

I've seen other pictures of the Hutchison 41Cs and as far as I can see the three cars were identical. So it's not unreasonable to believe that this is one of those team cars but we can't really say which one.

Yet ;)

#30 RonPohl

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:45

The 1969 SCCA Pro formula b race at Riverside list Frank Monise in a Lotus 22' with a number 25.

#31 fmonise

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 20:53

The 1969 SCCA Pro formula b race at Riverside list Frank Monise in a Lotus 22' with a number 25.

Yes thats my Lotus 41 around '71 or'72. Don't know why it looks sway backed in the photo. Must be angle of fuel cell covers. The car was very straight and in good shape.
Your correct we changed the roll bar per new rules and the cells because of the total disaster the originals had become. Bruce Burness did all the chassis work to sort
the car and it was great. The car was fast, with FB club lap record at Riverside and top 10 runs in Pro races. Like everyone else our effort was killed by lack of finance.
The car was from Texas but not one of Gus Hutchinson's cars. He sold it new to Sandy Shepard who it's said hated the car. It was stolen (?) from him while out in Ca. for the Runoffs. I purchased the car from an auto shop teacher in Pasadena for a very good price. The teacher let Doug Brenner drive it in a few races. I discovered this story while pitting next to Sandy at a Pro race at Laguna Seca. I was terrified I had one something wrong and would loose my race car but after giving me a hard it became
obvious he was just as afraid he'd get it back!

The Brabham pictures are John Angus in BT29 #1 and Ron Dykes in Dick Dourghety (sp) BT29 that I purchased from Dick thru my frien Byron Hatten.
Cheers Frank

#32 D-Type

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 21:10

Thanks for the story Frank. Purely to satisfy my curiosity, could you shed some light on the "Kasprzycki" connection please?

#33 Allen Brown

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 21:18

Welcome Frank, and thanks for the story on the 41. Do you recall who the 41 went to after you had it?

Can I ask you about your Brabham BT29s? I'm told that you had two BT29s - this ex-Dick Doherty one that you bought through Byron Hatten but crashed at Laguna Seca some time around 1974, and a second BT29 that you bought to replace it. Can you remember where the second one came from?



#34 Chris Townsend

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 18:47

Yes thats my Lotus 41 around '71 or'72. Don't know why it looks sway backed in the photo. Must be angle of fuel cell covers. The car was very straight and in good shape.
Your correct we changed the roll bar per new rules and the cells because of the total disaster the originals had become. Bruce Burness did all the chassis work to sort
the car and it was great. The car was fast, with FB club lap record at Riverside and top 10 runs in Pro races. Like everyone else our effort was killed by lack of finance.
The car was from Texas but not one of Gus Hutchinson's cars. He sold it new to Sandy Shepard who it's said hated the car. It was stolen (?) from him while out in Ca. for the Runoffs. I purchased the car from an auto shop teacher in Pasadena for a very good price. The teacher let Doug Brenner drive it in a few races. I discovered this story while pitting next to Sandy at a Pro race at Laguna Seca. I was terrified I had one something wrong and would loose my race car but after giving me a hard it became
obvious he was just as afraid he'd get it back!

The Brabham pictures are John Angus in BT29 #1 and Ron Dykes in Dick Dourghety (sp) BT29 that I purchased from Dick thru my frien Byron Hatten.
Cheers Frank


Sandy told me a few years ago that his Lotus 41 didn't come new from Hutchinson. He bought it from Bill Wolfe who had it from Hutchison.
Allen, Frank's Lotus 41 is log booked SCCA log 19-262 4.19.72. Next owner was Lloyd Wood [drivers school Watkins Glen only] then Evan Moberg 1976.

And a big welcome Frank! I hope that you can tell us some more stories about racing in California in the 70s. And while Allen is bending your ear about Brabhams, can I ask about the March 75B you had 1977-78 and the Ralt RT1?

Chris

Edited by Chris Townsend, 01 April 2012 - 18:52.


#35 David McKinney

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 19:01

And a big welcome Frank! I hope that you can tell us some more stories about racing in California in the 70s

Seconded - and I'd be delighted if you extended it to the '50s and '60s :)


#36 Brennerfab

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:24

This is Frank Monise Jr in a modified Lotus 41. It originally belonged to Sandy Shepard. I raced it twice in 1969 at Santa Barbara and at a Continental race at Castle Rock Colorado. Sometime after that it got to Frankie. The Kasprzycki wings were made by Paul Kasprzycki who is the younger brother of Jan Kasprzycki. They both now live in Maui Hawaii. Paul is an amazing woodworker and both Jan and Paul are childhood friends of mine. I had Paul make the first set for me but I can't remember if it was for the Lotus 41 or my Chevron B15b. They were made from wood. They were quite light and beautifully done similar to an airplane wing with wood ribs and a thin wood skin.

#37 Brennerfab

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:53

When I drove the car at Santa Barbara (1969) the car had rear brake failure and it would spin coming into a left hand corner under braking after the back strait. The car also turned really good one way and pushed like hell the other. Turns out the car had been hit in the pits when Sandy Shepard owned it and it was shorter on one side than the other.

The next race at Castle Rock Colorado was 100 mile or so, so you had to have a lot of fuel. The Lotus 41 had an auxiliary saddle tank mounted above the frame in back of the dash over my legs. This was before fuel cells so it was just an aluminum tank. As the race progressed (I finished 8th) my right leg above the knee started to sting. When I got out of the car after the race I found that the tank was leaking fuel on my leg.

I have some pictures of the car when I raced it and will see if I can find them and figure out how to post them..........Douglas

#38 E1pix

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:59

I'd be happy to walk you through photo posting if you'd like. Simple when it works, annoying otherwise. :)

I'm in Colorado, it's easiest to describe the process on the phone. PM me if interested.


#39 275 GTB-4

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:51

When I drove the car at Santa Barbara (1969) the car had rear brake failure and it would spin coming into a left hand corner under braking after the back strait. The car also turned really good one way and pushed like hell the other. Turns out the car had been hit in the pits when Sandy Shepard owned it and it was shorter on one side than the other.

The next race at Castle Rock Colorado was 100 mile or so, so you had to have a lot of fuel. The Lotus 41 had an auxiliary saddle tank mounted above the frame in back of the dash over my legs. This was before fuel cells so it was just an aluminum tank. As the race progressed (I finished 8th) my right leg above the knee started to sting. When I got out of the car after the race I found that the tank was leaking fuel on my leg.

I have some pictures of the car when I raced it and will see if I can find them and figure out how to post them..........Douglas


Welcome Douglas....whew! two new forum members associated with the one post asking a question....way to go TNF! :)

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#40 Brennerfab

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:07

I'd be happy to walk you through photo posting if you'd like. Simple when it works, annoying otherwise. :)

I'm in Colorado, it's easiest to describe the process on the phone. PM me if interested.


Will do. It might take me a while to find them though..........

#41 ed holly

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 22:36

Hi Frank,

Firstly welcome to TNF.

This is a bit off topic so apologies for that first.

I own and race a Brabham BT21C here in Sydney Aus and there is a chance that it belonged to Noel McGlothlin (Chatanooga) from new till about 71. The timeline I have been able to work out indicates that a (Dr) Bill Middleton starts to race a BT21C soon after McGlothlin no longer appears in it. I have the history from mid 70's but would really like to find out what it did before that. In your racing from that time, did you ever come across either of these competitors? In the history file for the BT21C are notes that an owner traded the car on a Lola at some stage and Bill Middleton did race a Lola after the BT21C. These notes were as a result of research by a 15 year owner of the car from 1986 to 2001.

Anyone else who may read this - any help would be much appreciated.

regards

Ed

#42 Brennerfab

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 23:24

Hi Frank,

Firstly welcome to TNF.

This is a bit off topic so apologies for that first.

I own and race a Brabham BT21C here in Sydney Aus and there is a chance that it belonged to Noel McGlothlin (Chatanooga) from new till about 71. The timeline I have been able to work out indicates that a (Dr) Bill Middleton starts to race a BT21C soon after McGlothlin no longer appears in it. I have the history from mid 70's but would really like to find out what it did before that. In your racing from that time, did you ever come across either of these competitors? In the history file for the BT21C are notes that an owner traded the car on a Lola at some stage and Bill Middleton did race a Lola after the BT21C. These notes were as a result of research by a 15 year owner of the car from 1986 to 2001.

Anyone else who may read this - any help would be much appreciated.

regards

Ed

Hi
Douglas Brenner here. I do remember Dr. Bill Middleton but can't remember any specifics. Frankie (Frank Monise Jr.) would remember....

#43 RonPohl

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:17

When I drove the car at Santa Barbara (1969) the car had rear brake failure and it would spin coming into a left hand corner under braking after the back strait. The car also turned really good one way and pushed like hell the other. Turns out the car had been hit in the pits when Sandy Shepard owned it and it was shorter on one side than the other.

The next race at Castle Rock Colorado was 100 mile or so, so you had to have a lot of fuel. The Lotus 41 had an auxiliary saddle tank mounted above the frame in back of the dash over my legs. This was before fuel cells so it was just an aluminum tank. As the race progressed (I finished 8th) my right leg above the knee started to sting. When I got out of the car after the race I found that the tank was leaking fuel on my leg.

I have some pictures of the car when I raced it and will see if I can find them and figure out how to post them..........Douglas

Hello Doug .... It's been a while... Like 40 years. Phil Palm and I bought your BT-29 from you back in 1972. When I got the car from you it had an interesting "sportscars nose" made out of wood I think. Was that also made by Kasrycki? We never ran it and I forget if you said you had ever run it. If you did and had some pictures of the car with with the sportscars nose, I think it would be enjoyed by some TNF'ers. Certainly one of the earliest sportscars nose on a small formula car.BTW, I started a thread a few months ago "USA formula b" (kinda hard to find with the search key here, but it's there). Some people have posted some great formula b pictures there, and I will post some eventually. Wonderful to see you here Doug. Happy new year.

#44 275 GTB-4

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:32

http://forums.autosp...;hl=USA formula

#45 E1pix

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:32

Kind of on topic, IIRC, Bill Middleton ran a BT38 at the Runoffs in the early '70s.

#46 RonPohl

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:37

Hi Frank,

Firstly welcome to TNF.

This is a bit off topic so apologies for that first.

I own and race a Brabham BT21C here in Sydney Aus and there is a chance that it belonged to Noel McGlothlin (Chatanooga) from new till about 71. The timeline I have been able to work out indicates that a (Dr) Bill Middleton starts to race a BT21C soon after McGlothlin no longer appears in it. I have the history from mid 70's but would really like to find out what it did before that. In your racing from that time, did you ever come across either of these competitors? In the history file for the BT21C are notes that an owner traded the car on a Lola at some stage and Bill Middleton did race a Lola after the BT21C. These notes were as a result of research by a 15 year owner of the car from 1986 to 2001.

Anyone else who may read this - any help would be much appreciated.

regards

Ed

Hello Ed. I recall Dr. Middleton well since I was racing in FF and formula b at that time. I only recalled him racing a bt-38, but a quick look at our bible (oldracecars) shows that he did indeed race a bt21-c and a lola 240. I purchases a Caldwell d-9 formula ford from Charlie Hayes which he had taken in trade from Dr. Middleton. Hayes was a dealer for both Lola's and brabhams so one or both of those cars may have come through his shop. Good luck with the hunt. Cheers.

#47 Brennerfab

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:48

Hello Doug .... It's been a while... Like 40 years. Phil Palm and I bought your BT-29 from you back in 1972. When I got the car from you it had an interesting "sportscars nose" made out of wood I think. Was that also made by Kasrycki? We never ran it and I forget if you said you had ever run it. If you did and had some pictures of the car with with the sportscars nose, I think it would be enjoyed by some TNF'ers. Certainly one of the earliest sportscars nose on a small formula car.BTW, I started a thread a few months ago "USA formula b" (kinda hard to find with the search key here, but it's there). Some people have posted some great formula b pictures there, and I will post some eventually. Wonderful to see you here Doug. Happy new year.

Wow. I remember you picking it up in Eagle Rock. I heard the car was totaled. What is the real scoop. I think I do have some pictures. Some are already jpgs and some are photo prints. We have moved back to so cal and they are still packed away. If I can figure out how to post pictures I will send what I have. There are a few good pictures on my website www.brennerfab.com The nose was made by Paul Kasprzycki. I think I have a picture of it in Bogota in Feb. 1972. I am really always surprised anyone is interested in all this. Who knew!!

Edited by Brennerfab, 01 January 2013 - 01:48.


#48 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:35

Happy New Year too,

I understand that your car does survive but it's a very involved story with a replacement chassis though the original survives.
Charlie Hayes has posted here from time to time too!