73 replies to this topic

[KUMO]

HHF said that the reason Ferrari was against TC is because they already have it via clever engine mapping and softwares, which they used on last year's car to win the championships. Do u think he's right?

[sepolo2]

HHF is right, and I even think that Ferrari were not even discreet and subtle about it, the vetoed the comeback of TC to maintain their edge... McLaren did not object about it...

[smarty]

KUMO, what is your source please?

sepolo2, as far as I know Ferrari did not veto TC. I thought it was unanimous decison by all the teams.

[The RedBaron]

HHF has no proof. It's funny that in the 1999 the team considered cheating were either the Jordans or Stewarts (the team I believe).
What about Mclarens extraordinary starts?

He should go on record and make that public, then Ferrari & co. can sue his arse!
Like his driving, I bet he bottles out!

[MN]

smarty,

http://www.f1-live.com/en/
Find the article titled as "Heinz warns of unfair advantage".

[andy_bee]

Originally posted by The RedBaron
It's funny that in the 1999 the team considered cheating were either the Jordans or Stewarts (the team I believe).

I thought it was Stewart or Sauber actually

[HartleyHare]

The pension fund embezzler Robert Maxwell successfully sued various people before the full magnitude of his wickedness was uncovered, and the actuality was FAR worse than had been suggested and then knocked down in the libel courts. Success in a suit is not proof of innocence. Or guilt. And HHF would be mad to accuse such a financially girded behemoth as Ferrari on his meagre retainer. Armies of lawyers would descend and tear at his flesh. He would need the car as evidence, which Ferrari are unlikely to supply.

RedB, I see that while you object to HHF's comments you have no qualms about making accusations about other teams yourself. Would you welcome a trip to court where your backside could be sued too?

Where is your evidence? Pots and kettles?;)

Good point about the bottling out, though. Shame. Quick guy, but rarely a racer.

The unanimous decision was to reintroduce TC. As I understand it, all the teams except Ferrari and her satellites wanted to introduce the ruling from the start of the season.

There is an exact quote from HHF on another thread which is what KUMO is referring to, I believe.

[DangerMouse]

Good point RedBaron, we have no proof than HHF exists either. Has anyone actually touched him? Might be a mass hallucination, and even if he does exist (a laughable concept I know) what would an F1 driver know about F1 anyhow?

It’s strange that we have two highly respected team managers (one of which is a gifted designer too) and at least one driver openly point the finger at Ferrari but this is all poo-poohed as sour grapes and hear-say.

Of course nothing but a document signed by the entire Ferrari team stating, “we cheated, Signed Ferrari” – would be good enough. And even then Schumiphiles would find ways to ignore the documented evidence as irrelevant.


And what of McLarens extraordinary starts? They have two drivers who have managed the same in every car they have ever driven throughout their whole careers.
MH and DC have always been nothing short of brilliant in this respect even back in their pre F1 days.

MSs starts have always been touch and go, At Benetton he went from disappearing off into the distance at every start to lousing some up or being average just after Benetton were caught with “Software options we didn’t use - honest guv” All more coincidence.
At Ferrari when he first joined, again his starts were very average and at times terrible, by 1997 they were excellent – the same year Ferrari were caught with “Throttle Control” All again mere coincidence which could never be construed as evidence to even suggest that when MS makes regular decent starts, you can be sure a microchip is involved – oh no.
Same as he never rams his opponents – they were an act of god on an innocent bystander that happened to be Michael Schumacher – poor persecuted soul. And how dare anyone criticise an obviously defect free human being such as Michael.

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by HartleyHare

RedB, I see that while you object to HHF's comments you have no qualms about making accusations about other teams yourself. Would you welcome a trip to court where your backside could be sued too?

I'm only repeating what was banded about at the time, quite frankly I don't give a damn whether it was Jordans or Stewarts.
I believe it to be Stewarts though, on the back of comments made by an ex-FIA employee who I had the pleasure of meeting during a social occasion.

[AyePirate]

the Fretzen quote from the afformentioned page:

“As you probably know, thanks to objections from Ferrari, the use of traction control remains outlawed until the Spanish GP in April. The big advantage of such a system comes in the start of a race or if its wet. There are several ways to prevent wheel-spin and thus improve acceleration, but the hardest to detect is a system that employs the engine mapping,” Frentzen remarked. “By devising a different program to overcome the excessive torque that creates wheel-spin you have what is effectively a traction/launch control system that provides a huge advantage off the start-line or in the wet. It's a very delicate job to write the right program and to be able to use it at the right moment. A job which Ferrari certainly seemed to have mastered last year, which is certainly why they are keen to delay any rule changes on the subject. Whether there system is legal or not, is something that even the FIA admit they are unable to verify. Honda does not have a system as sophisticated as the Ferrari one and probably nobody else in the paddock has with the exception of McLaren. So all I can say for the first four races of this season is that I hope it stays dry! At least then I think we can give them a good run for their money.”


It looks like he doesn't rule out MercLaren either.

In a way I think Frentzen has little to worry about in the
way of a lawsuit. Think about it, do you think any cheating
team would want to risk having their technical data
subpoenaed? It's much easier to blow him off in the press
as a midfield crank than to go to court and risk
having his assertions proven correct.

[tifosi]

I thought this topic was already covered in great detail. What it boils down to is so what? What HHF is accusing Ferrari of is not cheating. Using engine mapping as he described is PERFECTLY LEGAL, so where does KUMO's accusation of cheating come into play. HHF also said that Ferrari's performance last year demonstrated they had mastered launch control. If last year's effort was mastering launch control, I'd hate to see what happens if they get wrong. Ferrari had to have some of the worst starts in F1 history.
I hope this is just a case of typical idiotic journalists misquoting HHF. He is one of my favorite drivers, but if he is just going to become another "Eddie Irvine whiner", I don't think I can support him. Cry-babies can all jump off the nearest bridge as far as I'm concerned.

[RedFever]

Actually Frentzen said both Ferrari and McLaren had TC in 2000.....so, Mika is as much as a cheater as MS????

[desmo]

I think it would be naive to suggest that any particular team was "more guilty" of using engine mappings or other arguably legal means to control wheelspin. Some people inside the sport have suggested that TAG's system was more sophisticated, while others feel Magneti Marelli's was. I doubt if the full truth will ever be known in this regard. I await the re-introduction of legal TC so this rather pointless debate can be put into the past. I have a feeling that 10 years from now, some will still be debating this on the Nostalgia Forum though.

[Romulus]

Thank u KUMO for copying my thread..
I posted about this a coupple of days ago..

U will find the link here..

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=16360


And the original article is found at HH:s hompage www.hhf.de

[Lantern]

Actually, he doesn't say that Ferrari have TC. He simply states that they have the technical people employed that can create an engine map that dumbs the engine BEFORE the start of a wet race. You are allowed one engine map......just not multiple maps during the duration of the race. He states that they have the ability to make better maps and the intelligence to know when to employ them before a race. In other words they guess correctly on when and where they should use each map.

[B.Traven]

There's no need of much thinking to figure out which big team was cheating with illegal use of traction control last year.

-Ferrari’s TC isn’t ready yet so they need time until the Spanish GP to make their system fully operational; McLaren’s TC has been in use in the last 2 or 3 years, so the British team has no need of supplementary time.

-It’s well known that TC provides a most smooth power transfer to the track, thus helping to save rubber; anyone knows that the Ferrari has been invariably much more harder on tires than McLaren;

-TC is particularly helpful in slippery conditions like when it’s raining - And it wasn’t amazing than Mikka Hakkinen, a driver known for his mediocre wet track performances in the past - suddenly in last couple of years became quite decent rain driver ?

- Another well known advantage TC gives to the driver , it’s to enable fantastic starts. And who was making blistering starts the last years, letting constantly the Ferrari duo far behind in the dust ?

[RedFever]

;)

[Raelene]

Kumo

he also said that others had it, just not as SOPHISTICATED... apart from McLaren that is....

[Ricardo F1]

B. Traven - what are you on dude?

- Ferrari didn't want traction control brought back full stop, hence why people think they instigated the whole delay, hence why people think they had it already.
- I think everyone knows why the McLaren is better on its tyres than the Ferrari, add one Adrian Newey, take away one Michael Schumacher.
- EXCUSE ME? There's only one team that seems to shine in the wet and that's Ferrari. That's the clearest case of traction control there is if you ask me. McLaren's have never been easy in the wet, DC used to be a good wet weather driver and Hakkinen is no slouch.
- Starts, well that's launch control as opposed to traction control, similar but different.

[Type61]

B.Traven asks: And who was making blistering starts the last years?
Answer: JV

Guess that makes him the T.C. King.

[gray_cat]

Ricardo,

The whole fuss started from HHF saying :

"... a traction/launch control system that provides a huge advantage off the start-line or in the wet. ... A job which Ferrari certainly seemed to have mastered last year ..."

If the launch part of this system, by your own admission, was missing on Ferrari - HHF doesn't seem to know what he is talking about - what launch system Ferrari certainly seemed to have mastered last year ?

[baddog]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
B. Traven - what are you on dude?

- Ferrari didn't want traction control brought back full stop, hence why people think they instigated the whole delay, hence why people think they had it already.

It gives people who already think something food for their theory, but if you didnt already have this plot in your head, you wouldnt think it up on the basis of these facts. that being so the henc-hence-hence chain is valueless. Take a different supposition (that ferrari dont think TC is a good thing for F1 and them) and your chain of reasoning leads elsewhere.. but not somewhere YOU want to go.

- Starts, well that's launch control as opposed to traction control, similar but different.

so Frentzens views are good when they back up your theories, but invalid (he clearly says one of the biggest advantages of TC is the start) when they make things look rather different to the way you would like them to look. no surprise there then

Shaun

[Gladiator]

I hate cheating in sports and therefore I don't like Schumacher.

Everywhere he is there is cheating!!! What a whimp!!

Here is the full article: http://www.f1today.c...m.asp?item=9879

[Ricardo F1]

Not invalid at all, but launch control is quite seperate to traction control as far as I'm aware - similar systems but different applications. Of course if you're doing one then the basics to the system are probably in place for the other, but you couldn't claim that JV or the Macs had TC based on wet weather performance where it would generally show the greatest.

[Williams]

A job which Ferrari certainly seemed to have mastered last year, which is certainly why they are keen to delay any rule changes on the subject.

OK so Ferrari among the accused

Whether there system is legal or not, is something that even the FIA admit they are unable to verify.

But the systems may not have even been illegal !

Honda does not have a system as sophisticated as the Ferrari one

And BAR is another "guilty" party

and probably nobody else in the paddock has with the exception of McLaren.

And McLaren is yet another.

I don't understand why there is an argument between McLAren and Ferarri supporters. Seems like both sides, and some others, are equally guilty, and it seems that possibly NOBODY is guilty, since even the FIA don't know if the systems are illegal !

[The RedBaron]

The man that was responsible for the current F1 behaviour on track was Senna!! His bullying, punting and aggression was the start of things to come.

[JayWay]

Frenztens claims are interesting, to totally wave them off is silly.

Ferrari had massive pressure on them to win the championship. Both from fans, press, and the fact that they had a financial ticking time bomb in Schumacher, as well as quickly expiring contracts with the Ferrari heads.

It's no secret that Ferrari were totally getting dominated in the start category, which I think after early 98, is where they were losing the most ground. It would not surprise me one bit if Ferrari became desperate and resorted to cheating to make up ground. Justifying it by telling themselves "it's only for starts, after that we even it up more, and we play it clean." Hhhmmm.

[Samurai]

I just read this thread, but LOL! Good stuff!

Originally posted by DangerMouse
Good point RedBaron, we have no proof than HHF exists either. Has anyone actually touched him? Might be a mass hallucination, and even if he does exist (a laughable concept I know) what would an F1 driver know about F1 anyhow?

Touche!

MSs starts have always been touch and go, At Benetton he went from disappearing off into the distance at every start to lousing some up or being average just after Benetton were caught with software options we didn't use - honest guvEAll more coincidence.
At Ferrari when he first joined, again his starts were very average and at times terrible, by 1997 they were excellent Ethe same year Ferrari were caught with Throttle ControlEAll again mere coincidence which could never be construed as evidence to even suggest that when MS makes regular decent starts, you can be sure a microchip is involved Eoh no.
Same as he never rams his opponents Ethey were an act of god on an innocent bystander that happened to be Michael Schumacher Epoor persecuted soul. And how dare anyone criticise an obviously defect free human being such as Michael.

Great post! putting things in the proper perspective.

(P.S. Jeez RedB where did talk of Senna come from?;))

[Gladiator]

I think that is why Ferrari has been so good in rain the last seasons, Frentzen is right there.

Schumacher was really horrible in rain prior to joining Ferrari.

Spa 92: Brundle pushes Schuey in the rain and Schuey goes off, enter the pits and wins after Mansell while catching runs into to trouble

Donington-93: Qualify 4th but is dead last after a few laps.

Suzuka-93: Gets overtaken by Hill and then crashes out.

Suzuka 94: Hill wins a rainy race and Hill is not known to be the master in rain. He beats Schumacher.

Imola 95: Schumacher flies off in rain after putting slicks on.

Monaco 96: Crashes heavily when trying to keep Hills pace at the first lap

Then suddenly Schumacher started to improve in rain. What? Why?Frentzen might have the explanation now.

[Samurai]

OT but Suzuka 94 was a great drive by Damon. That took guts man!!

[black magic]

whilst ferrari has been accused of trying to block the entry of traction control and maclaren all for it the drivers seem to have a different view.

one ms has been a stand out IN FAVOUR of its reintroduction and coulthard the reverse. why would schuey want to lose his advantage if ferrari had and no one else had it. seems to pour water on the conspiracy theories.

I thought it more likely that ferrari wanted longer to perfect their system as they had suspicions that maclaren had a more advanced form than they did.

[MacFan]

Originally posted by B.Traven
There's no need of much thinking to figure out which big team was cheating with illegal use of traction control last year.

-Ferrari’s TC isn’t ready yet so they need time until the Spanish GP to make their system fully operational; McLaren’s TC has been in use in the last 2 or 3 years, so the British team has no need of supplementary time.

-It’s well known that TC provides a most smooth power transfer to the track, thus helping to save rubber; anyone knows that the Ferrari has been invariably much more harder on tires than McLaren;

-TC is particularly helpful in slippery conditions like when it’s raining - And it wasn’t amazing than Mikka Hakkinen, a driver known for his mediocre wet track performances in the past - suddenly in last couple of years became quite decent rain driver ?

- Another well known advantage TC gives to the driver , it’s to enable fantastic starts. And who was making blistering starts the last years, letting constantly the Ferrari duo far behind in the dust ?

Laughable.

-Both Ferrari and McLaren, as well as most of the other teams, have perfectly good TC systems dating back to 1993. The concept of traction control has not changed in the last 7 years AFAIK.

-TC doesn't necessarily save rubber - in fact if it is set up for maximum possible traction, it will use up rubber much faster than a fast smooth driver.

-TC helpful in slippery conditions? People in glass houses should not throw stones!!!!

-Controlling traction is 1 aspect of making a good start. Also important are quick reactions to the lights, a torquey engine, and the ability not to stall the car.

Any more comical theories where these came from?

[Brent]

K i'm just gonna have some more fun here before it all really starts to happen.

KUMO said that Frentzen said this.

said that the reason Ferrari was against TC is because they already have it via clever engine mapping and softwares, which they used on last year's car to win the championships.

So that's what you call a "double quote". (yeah k it was in Atlas news. Don't make it fact)

On the subject of "KUMO" tyres, i was very apprehensive when i had to use them, but they really are a great tyre, infact i did 1/4 million k's with 2 sets (10) with only one delamination due to massive heat! Impressed!

This comment by a Gladiator really is interesting.

Schumacher was really horrible in rain prior to joining Ferrari.

hehee...hahahaaaa, fark i don't know what to say except for this. Gladiator, please go and check out the history of a sport such as F1 before you start sprouting forth such rubbish. I'm sure you really do love F1 and one day you may contribute some opinions that actually have some true relevance to the said sport. Until then ppl are going to have alot of fun with you.

On the subject of "Gladiator" i thought it was a totally over-rated movie. Probably because of that useless Kiwi actor that starred in the flick.

This one by JayWay

Ferrari had massive pressure on them to win the championship. Both from fans, press, and the fact that they had a financial ticking time bomb in Schumacher

Excellent oppinion. If MS did'nt win last year i'm possitive there would have been some [more] changes made. The 2 previous years were close, especially 99. No way you can knock a fact like Jay stated there.

But this quote by Hartlyrabbit is truely incredible. I LOVE IT!!

The pension fund embezzler Robert Maxwell successfully sued various people before the full magnitude of his wickedness was uncovered

AHHHHHHHhahahaaaheheheee gotta love it. Tell me if i'm wrong, but is Mr. Maxwell, Schumachers uncle?

Well only a few days left, and if the Mac's can beat the Red machine i'll be pretty happy. But i'd be happy if JV came thru and taught a few guys a lesson as well. Prost will look good in blue. Those BLACK cars will look the BEST. And Minardi will do us Aussies/NZers proud. (As will Scott Dixon in the US this year)

I'm off for a DB Export. (glug)(glug) and a steak&egg burger.

All the best to all ya respective teams, lets have a good clean fight, and no punching before the bell!

[baddog]

Originally posted by JayWay
Frenztens claims are interesting, to totally wave them off is silly.

Ferrari had massive pressure on them to win the championship. Both from fans, press, and the fact that they had a financial ticking time bomb in Schumacher, as well as quickly expiring contracts with the Ferrari heads.

It's no secret that Ferrari were totally getting dominated in the start category, which I think after early 98, is where they were losing the most ground. It would not surprise me one bit if Ferrari became desperate and resorted to cheating to make up ground. Justifying it by telling themselves "it's only for starts, after that we even it up more, and we play it clean." Hhhmmm.

Your theory would be at least interesting except for the fact that ferraris starts, lamentable as they have often been, did not suddenly get better, in fact this year they were worse. if they had you might have some credibility, as it is... none at all. Only one team got perfect start after perfect start (and we are talking PERFECT not just good, and it wasnt ferrari now was it?

I have no doubt at all that ferrari, just like everyone else, have tried to develop software that maximises start potential, but they just havent done it as well as the macs. both of them are borderline legal of course like any top team, but if ferrari cheated they did it astonishingly badly.

on the general subject, a sequence of events occured this year which I DO NOT believe indicated the team involved were cheating, but which I know beyond doubt would have resulted in many of you being certain ferrari were cheating if it happened to them. the events occured like this.

1:The team had fabulous low/mid speed corner traction, the best starts in the sport, and very efficient tyre usage for both (very different) drivers equally.

2:One of the drivers performed a remarkable spin recovery manouver on a damp track which was not shown on any but digital TV, but which gave the appearance of being impossible in a car not equipped with some sort of rear wheel turning assist.

3:The FIA released a 'rule clarification' that such devices in differentials were not allowed.

4:the team lost ground against their main rivals starting at the next race

Based on MUCH thinner evidence than this many conclude ferrari have been cheating. draw you own conclusions.

Shaun

[BigWig]

I thought they were KumHo tires....that is a really unfortunate name either way.

[Brent]

Hey Shaun,

One of the drivers performed a remarkable spin recovery manouver on a damp track which was not shown on any but digital TV

I was trying to tell some-one else about this incredible recovery but i could'nt remember which race it was (yeah ko i could look it up but i have a social life). But was it . ...... ...... getting incredible drive out of a 4wheel drift and put a couple of wheels on damp grass and still powered off? It looked like "all wheel drive"!

Well i don't have digital coverage so i guess it was another team using similar 4 wheel drive techniques.

[baddog]

brent, Certainly I didnt see the whole incident on terrestrial (and I was glued to the screen throughout), I saw the end of the recovery, but when I saw it on an overhead mpeg of a digital feed it was much more striking. and Yes, it was the incident you describe (spa for the slow memoried). The driver applied power which SHOULD by rights have induced further spin, but appeared to right the car instead.. perhaps an odd effect of the dynamics of a sliding car, perhaps not. I guess my point was that that single incident would have absolutely confirmed illegal traction control systems for many people if it had occured on a red car. Asit was It barely warranted a mention.

Shaun

[Brent]

Yip, Shaun, i remember better now, "but when I saw it on an overhead mpeg of a digital feed it was much more striking". I forgot that it was actually the mpeg of the said incident that i watched (with some-one that was equally amazed).

heh oh well it could have just been one of those beautiful saves that we're lucky enough to see (once or twice) in a life time.

Also i like your style notice we have'nt discussed who actually performed this incredible save! No doupt some-one will tell us?

[JayWay]

Shaun,

Very well, but then you admitt that Ferrari made an attempt at illigal means?

[Brent]

Hey BigWig (you know, from WatershipDown) you got me there bud, of course you are right. Kumho Tyres. AHH what the heck, i'm off to watch The Coors. See ya

[Brent]

One quick response to you Jay. Nope.

[JayWay]

A team that has so much resources, in an enviroment like F1 where cheating is clearly out there, it is hard to believe they would not inquire with such pressure on them.

[Brent]

True, and i agree. So i change my reply from a "nope" to a possible "possibly".

Gotta bolt, or the wife will kill me.

[baddog]

Originally posted by JayWay
Shaun,

Very well, but then you admitt that Ferrari made an attempt at illigal means?

nope, but I freely 'admit' that ferrari, like every other team, tried to make a car whose start system is the best possible (this is NOT CHEATING, all cars have a complex electronic start system, you think they have a roadgoing 2 plate clutch with cable and spring mechanical release for chrissakes?;) )

Whether any teams have stepped over the edge of clever rule interpretation into outright rule breaking we really can't know. frentzen cant even know unless its jordan.. he might not even know then, the toyota drivers had no idea of the great toyota turbo scam in rallying till it broke.. they where gutted about it too. those who claim they can identify illegal systms from the way a car looks or the way it sounds are living in a fantasy world.. the edge between legal and illegal is too grey and fine for that.

The reason I doubt ferrari have been over that edge is youd expect a team would only risk the penalties for some benefit, and their starts havent shown any benefit at all. I dont honestly even think mac were cheating on starts, just htey had some damn clever ideas which payed off week after week. (mika is a pretty good starter but he isnt a computer)

Shaun

[JayWay]

Sorry but I think it's naive of you to outright claim that no one can know. I know enough to know the F1 community is one that is tight knit and filled with political warfare. What goes inside none of us on this board can now. So you can't tell us like your an authority that no one knows. Words slip, secrets get out.

Frentzen all of a sudden finds himself back in a winning seat, he is known for being quite, but all of a sudden he sences a shot a WDC, he gets alot more competitive and is willing to open his mouth.
The Mac was the best car, if he was cunning he would go for them to cause havoc. But he went for Ferrari, he fears more then McLaren, Ferrari will ruin his WDC chances the illigal way. Thats the way I see it.

Once again, with so many rumours going around, a rich team like Ferrari would probably be stupid to atleast not have some illigal resources on the side, just in case. I refuse to believe that all that goes on behind those gates in Maranello is good clean F1'in. And the same goes for the boys in Woking.

[baddog]

okay I can respond to two things you say in different ways. I think you are reading far too much into frentzens words, you talk of him 'going after' ferrari (he makes it clear he's talking about ferrari AND mac being better than the others), about him being in a winning seat (that was 99 remember?), and about him fearnig ferrari cheating more (he clearly is going to fear them more because theyve won 3 out of the last 4 available WCs). When I say noone can know, they only know about runour and supposition. I can positively guarantee you that if ferraris systems are past legal, then noone outside the gates knows it for sure.. rumour is more powerful than fact, especially in that tight F1 environment. also frntzen never claims anyone is illegal, he even points out that honda just arent as advanced in these complex systems as the big boys.. not that they arent and havent been trying to be.

on the second issue.. Im afraid the days when technical people in the top teams played with out of it stuff on the side in the off chance are long gone.. ALL resources are focussed into slots in these amazingly efficient organisations, and I dont think they have any to spare for this. developing parts you might not use and which have the potential to cause you trouble when the silver boys paid spies break in and photo it etc etc is a waste of energy. developing solutions at the very edge of the rules to gain that tiny edge..THATS worth the time it takes and thats what I think both teams do, they just do it better than the rest.

THAT SAID. either or both may from time to time go further with these rule-testing devices than the FIA intend.. in fact we know they do. thats NOT the same as systematic deliberate cheating though, its the stuff of a technology sport.

Shaun

[SanePerson]

I think that is why Ferrari has been so good in rain the last seasons, Frentzen is right there.

Schumacher was really horrible in rain prior to joining Ferrari.

Spa 92: Brundle pushes Schuey in the rain and Schuey goes off, enter the pits and wins after Mansell while catching runs into to trouble

Donington-93: Qualify 4th but is dead last after a few laps.

Suzuka-93: Gets overtaken by Hill and then crashes out.

Suzuka 94: Hill wins a rainy race and Hill is not known to be the master in rain. He beats Schumacher.

Imola 95: Schumacher flies off in rain after putting slicks on.

Monaco 96: Crashes heavily when trying to keep Hills pace at the first lap

Then suddenly Schumacher started to improve in rain. What? Why?Frentzen might have the explanation now.

Spa 92: wins and drove a Benetton. So, no Ferrari and he won while Senna and Mansell were still in the race? But yes, the Benetton was the best car in 1992!

Suzuka 93: another great overtaking attempt by Damon Hill which crashes both drivers out. See Adilade 94, Monza/Silverstone 95.

Suzuka 94: Hill wins with 3,3 secs. Schumacher was leading the first part of the race and in the second there was a misunderstanding with the pit stops. After he was told so he catched up about a SECOND per lap from Hill. In a Benetton.

Imola 95: nice, one time right, but fails to mention races like Spa where MS drove on slicks in the wet and beat Mr. Hill on wets.

Monaco 96: he is human. What do you belive? And he drove a Ferrari, so no TC or what?

Maybe you should go back and write up all the rain races won by Schumacher. Maybe you want tell us how Senna cheated all the time by pushing opponents from the track or crashing while leading.

[pRy]

Originally posted by JayWay

Frentzen all of a sudden finds himself back in a winning seat, he is known for being quite, but all of a sudden he sences a shot a WDC,

Since when was a Jordan seat a winning seat? and a WDC shot seat?? dream on.

[Max Attac]

Originally posted by SanePerson



Suzuka 93: another great overtaking attempt by Damon Hill which crashes both drivers out. See Adilade 94, Monza/Silverstone 95.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Hill had already overtaken the very slow Schumacher so what the f*uck are you talking about. Incompetence.

Schumacher was really shitty 90% in rain prior to Ferrari and that's a fact.

[Max Attac]

And yes I forgot,

Hill finished 4th in Suzuka 1993. HAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Frentzen, Ron Dennis, Newey etc etc have all accused one team only, one team only.

Where ever Schumacher is there is traction control and cheating.

He is going to history as the greatest cheater of all time