40 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.

[Peter Morley]

John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.

I think Lotus had ZF boxes (would have been 5DS10s) in (some of?) the 18s that they took to America, possibly with 18/21 bodywork, so it is possible they used them elsewhere - they had to be better than the Queerboxes after all.

[Roger Clark]

As far as i know, Team Lotus never had an 18/21.

I thought that the ZF was exclusive to them and that all the 21s and 24s that appeared in private hands had Colotti boxes. Do any of the cars racing today have ZF gearboxes? I had not heard of an 18 with a ZF until i noticed the reference in Thompson.

[Ray Bell]

The Dawson-Damer car, which was ex-BRP I guess, had a Queerbox...

I recall looking at that when Mike Hailwood drove it at Amaroo Park.

[Roger Clark]

That's interesting. I assume that this was one of the 1961 cars. UDT-Laystall started the season with Laystall gearboxes, changed to Lotus in mid-season, and changed again to Colotti by the end of the season.

When did you see it?

[Macca]

John Oakley used to race an 18/21 in HSCC (and contributed to the HLR mag) , and his car had about 3 different brackets for gearlevers in the cockpit, and ISTR he told me it was ex-works (Taylor?) and had been fitted with various boxes in period.

Paul M

[David McKinney]

Taylor drove 18s for Team Lotus and 18/21s for UDT-Laystall, though John Oakley claims his 18/21 is ex-TL/Taylor. Could have been upgraded post-works, of course

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
That's interesting. I assume that this was one of the 1961 cars. UDT-Laystall started the season with Laystall gearboxes, changed to Lotus in mid-season, and changed again to Colotti by the end of the season.

When did you see it?

At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...

D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?

There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.

Edited by Ray Bell, 25 April 2012 - 21:56.

[Roger Clark]

Taylor drove 18s for Team Lotus and 18/21s for UDT-Laystall, though John Oakley claims his 18/21 is ex-TL/Taylor. Could have been upgraded post-works, of course

Which Taylor are you talking about?

[David McKinney]

Trevor

[Roger Clark]

When did he drive for UDT-Laystall?

[2F-001]

I'm getting awfully confused here (nothing new); doesn't a UDT-run 18/21 imply Henry T?
I didn't think Trevor drove with them until they ran the 24 and BRP.

Edited by 2F-001, 26 April 2012 - 07:57.

[David McKinney]

When did he drive for UDT-Laystall?

Whoops
Fooled by my own system
My records for the first UDT-Laystall entries say "Henry Taylor" and from then on just "Taylor"
Having got it into my head that Trevor drove 18/21s for them, I conscientiously ignored mentions of Henry, but then jumped to the wrong conclusion
(My excuse is that I had taken my sleeping pills at 10pm, so by 11 they were clearly working!)

[Paul Hamilton]

At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...

D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?

There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.

Ray, my recollection of the DD Lotus 18 is that, during John's ownership, it only ever had a queerbox and a 1.5 litre Climax engine which reflected its period specification when run by UDT Laystall.

[Roger Clark]

At an Historic meeting in 1976 or 1977...

D-D would have been a stickler for having it right at some particular period in its life. It was running a 2.5 engine, so might that be a clue? Did they run a new 18 in Intercontinental events in '61?

There are more knowledgeable people than myself around who know much more about this car, I would think Doug would be familiar with it as some of the D-D stuff was auctioned and he was present. I'm sure he would have seen or got into discussions about other cars in the collection.

UDT-L did run 18s in Intercontinental Formula races, but Theme Lotus says that the D-D car had chassis number 917 and I can't find any record of that car racing in IF that year.

[Ray Bell]

I defer to Paul's greater knowledge of the D-D car...

He had a lot more to do with those cars than I ever did, I must have confused the engine size in my mind over the years. But I didn't forget that Queerbox!

It would be interesting to know what path it followed to get to D-D, then.

[David McKinney]

The previous (UK) owner ran it with Ford 1500 and then Chevrolet V8, until 1967

I think it joined the DD collection in 1973

[Ray Bell]

A Chev V8 before F5000 came into being?

I'll bet that tested the poor queerbox right out...

[David McKinney]

I'm not sure that he retained the queerbox

In fact, being ex-BRP, would it ever have had a queerbox?

[Roger Clark]

I'm not sure that he retained the queerbox

In fact, being ex-BRP, would it ever have had a queerbox?

See post #5.

[David McKinney]

I knew that

[Rudernst]

I knew that

As far as I know

only 2 Lotus 18s ran 3 different boxes, chassis 912 (Moss Monaco Winner and chassis 915 (mine, ex UDT Clif Allison).
And yes, there were Queerbox, Laystall and Colotti.
Not necesseralily in the order mentioned earlier in this thread by other posters.
These two cars have assymetrical rear diaphragms needed to fit the Laystall box. An extension is welded in to the left.
NOT all UDT cars did get this treatment, they retained the standard symmetrcal rear end

And yes, there was an 18 fitted with a ZF, the ex Wolfgang Seidel Scuderia Colognia car, that still races today.

Rudolf

[Roger Clark]

Are you saying that the Walker car once had a Laystall gearbox? When was that?

[Doug Nye]

John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.

I don't have even a dodgy Team Lotus record sheet for Syracuse, sadly, but in Gregor Grant's report on the 1961 race he mentions that "all three Lotus 18s had their ratios changed" pre-race. That would not have happened (easily) if the two Team cars had been running ZF gearboxes in place of their normal Lotus queerboxes - not impossible, but not likely... Sadly, I have not been able to find a tail shot of the cars at Syracuse, in which a ZF instead of a Lotus 'box would be distinctive.


Here's Innes on the Type 18's Formula 1 debut in the 1960 Argentine GP, distinctive queerbox casing clearly visible within the car's tail (yes, it was hot that day in BA).


This is Moss in the 21-bodied, modified suspension Type 18 owned by Rob Walker - 1961 British GP, Aintree - Colotti gearbox casing on show...


And here's the Lotus gearbox of a Team car in their garage at Reims during the 1960 French GP meeting - in the middle of a ratio change. Oh yes, and with the inboard rear brakes clearly visible...along with the fixed-length drive shafts doubling as lateral upper locating members for those tall, cast hub carriers.

Photos: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 04 May 2012 - 22:00.

[Roger Clark]

Thanks for those. Is that a dent in the exhaust pipe in the Reims picture? No wonder Brabham was so much faster!

[Concreteconrods]

What gearbox was used in the first Rob Walker Lotus 18 in which SCM won the 1960 Monaco GP? I had assumed it to be the queerbox's only decent result - am I wrong?

[Roger Clark]

It was the queerbox.

[DanTra2858]

I defer to Paul's greater knowledge of the D-D car...

He had a lot more to do with those cars than I ever did, I must have confused the engine size in my mind over the years. But I didn't forget that Queerbox!

It would be interesting to know what path it followed to get to D-D, then.

Taken from the Bonhams & Goodman Austion Catalogue of the Dawson-Damer Collection is the following .....



The Engine Number that the 18 was to be sold with is FPF430-17-1123/2, there is no mention of any other gearbox's being used in this car, only the Queerbox.

Hope this helps.

[David McKinney]

I wonder who restored it to "very original condition" after it had run with a V8 Chevrolet a few years earlier, and before D-D bought it

[teegeefla]

Does anyone know which gearbox was in the Louise Bryden-Brown owned Lotus 18 chassis #903 while it was competing in Europe?

Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:

http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0

Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?

Thanks.

Edited by teegeefla, 06 July 2013 - 03:59.

[Michael Oliver]

Does anyone know which gearbox was in the Louise Bryden-Brown owned Lotus 18 chassis #903 while it was competing in Europe?

Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:

http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0

Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?

Thanks.

On the Lotus 19 sports cars, a popular mod was to replace the Queerbox with a Colotti, so maybe they did the same with the 18?

[Peter Morley]

Does anyone know which gearbox was in the Louise Bryden-Brown owned Lotus 18 chassis #903 while it was competing in Europe?

Also, when the car came to America and was owned by the Arciero Brothers, it definitely was not a "queerbox" as you can see in this photo, but I am unsure what gearbox this is:

http://thehenryford....g...age=C&alt=0

Finally, was 903 a left hand or right hand location for the shifter?

Thanks.

The gearbox in the photo looks like a Colotti but not sure which model and has a right hand gearchange.

[Michael Oliver]

John Thompson's Formula 1 Record Book says that the Team Lotus 18s had ZF gearboxes at the 1961 Aintree 200 and Syracuse Grand Prix. Is there any truth in this? DSJ wasn't at Aintree and his Syracuse report only says that the 18s were tatty and well worn.

Roger, did you ever manage to get any further on this query? I guess that Doug's reply suggested it was unlikely.

 

The gearbox fitted to the Gurney 903 when it raced in the US was a Colotti Type 29 5-speed unit, almost certainly taken out of the Arciero Brothers Lotus 19-951, as I have photos of that car running that type of gearbox in 1961.

[Roger Clark]

I must admit that after Doug's reply and with what I already knew, I didn't take it any further.  

[cooper997]

The Thompson book also quotes ZF for the Clark and Ireland Syracuse GP entries three days after Aintree. So perhaps another avenue to explore.

 

In 26/4/61 The Motor's Aintree report there's reference of "... - all the Team Lotus entries were the 1960 type car - ... " The only Lotus related gearbox reference I can see relates to Tony Marsh "(1960 Lotus with Cooper gearbox and other modifications)." That Thompson's book also records.

 

 

Stephen

[Lee Nicolle]

What is a queer box?? 

Open wheel stuff is not my forte. I know the Collotti box and ZF but not the Queerbox. 

Who made them and what made them queer?

[Catalina Park]

 

Who made them and what made them queer?

Lotus made them and because Lotus made them.

[Michael Oliver]

The Thompson book also quotes ZF for the Clark and Ireland Syracuse GP entries three days after Aintree. So perhaps another avenue to explore.
 
In 26/4/61 The Motor's Aintree report there's reference of "... - all the Team Lotus entries were the 1960 type car - ... " The only Lotus related gearbox reference I can see relates to Tony Marsh "(1960 Lotus with Cooper gearbox and other modifications)." That Thompson's book also records.
 
 
Stephen

Thanks for this, Stephen. The general consensus seems to be that there was no Lotus 18 fitted with a ZF box in period by Team Lotus. But by 1967 there was a Lotus 18 in private hands fitted with an FPF and ZF box, apparently from Clark's 1961 Monza crash Lotus 21.

[Michael Oliver]

What is a queer box?? 
Open wheel stuff is not my forte. I know the Collotti box and ZF but not the Queerbox. 
Who made them and what made them queer?

Lee, the 'Queerbox' was designed by Lotus and was a five-speed sequential gearbox, with a shift akin to a motorcycle. It was not very reliable. When Keith Duckworth joined Lotus he was tasked with making it so but concluded the only way to do this was to have completely new parts made and he said Colin Chapman did not wish to spend the money doing this. So Duckworth left to start up Cosworth with Mike Costin...

[Pat Clarke]

Are you saying that the Walker car once had a Laystall gearbox? When was that?

 

I would be very interested to learn more about the Laystall transaxle. 

I understand Mike Hewland was involved with the design before setting up Hewland transmissions.

 

A picture would be nice.

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

Pat

[Michael Oliver]

Pat, you are correct that Mike Hewland was the designer of the Laystall box, he was introduced to BRP by Henry Taylor. It was a big unit and Tony Robinson told me that the main problem with it was that it kept jumping out of gear. He tried a modification to try and stop it doing this but it did not work so they gave up on it and switched to Colotti boxes instead. I'd love to post a photo but I don't have any that I own the copyright to, sorry, so they are not mine to post!

Edited by Michael Oliver, 27 May 2021 - 20:52.