109 replies to this topic

[AlexS]

One more evidence how much the Tilke circuits limit variability and pilot quality in F1:

Weber:

While the fast and flowing Mugello circuit is radically different to most of the tracks that make up the Formula 1 calendar, Webber still feels that the team will be able to collect some useful data from some parts of the lap.

"There are parts of the lap that we don't really race on these days - the very, very fast stuff is not how we race on the modern tracks these days.

Difference is essential to have different winners if we don't want it to be only tires or wet...

An engineer only needs to project the car for the Tilke ones, if they are the big majority everyone will make the same. There are no alternatives.

We have fast tires and slow more durable tires, this build two possible strategies.
We should also in circuits have an equilibrium of super fast circuits with medium/slow ones and not only medium some with mickey mouse annoying curves.
This also means the pilots compete in more comprehensive manner instead of being the Tilke Champion...

Edited by AlexS, 02 May 2012 - 21:42.

[Risil]

Indeed. Not going to happen though. And I'd rather they didn't make any changes to the circuit to accommodate F1.

[Atreiu]

I'd love to see it, as long as the cars didn't ruin the circuit and leave bumps all around for the MotoGP bikes.

[Dunder]

It is similar in nature to Silverstone (before the 2010 changes) albeit It has some changes in elevation.

I am all in favour of more diversity in terms of the tracks F1 races on but overall I think we have a fairly good mix ATM.
Get rid of Valencia and replace some of the acres of tarmac run-offs (to something that is still safe but involves much more 'penalty') and I would be happy.

Edited by Dunder, 02 May 2012 - 15:52.

[engel]

Get rid of Valencia and replace some of the acres of tarmac run-offs (to something that is still safe but involves much more 'penalty') and I would be happy.

tungsten tarmac paul ricard style?
off topic but I am really curious about how the Pirellis would handle going across the red bits at Paul Ricard

on topic, Mugello is a great circuit to drive but it would be crap to race F1 in

[hunnylander]

Who would be the promoter of it? Who would pay the licence fee for hosting an F1 grand prix there?


Also, there is an Italian Grand Prix already.


The fans must understand the basics; making the calendar is not by picking up nice tracks built on planet Earth.

[Atreiu]

What fairly god mix? It's all high downforce.
There is definitely nothing like Mugello on the calendar. Maybe Suzuka, but I think Mugello would be significantly faster.

Obviously hunnylander, this is just wishfull thinking.

[keiichi]

Switching Valencia with the Autodromo Internacional do Algarve in Portimao, Portugal, IMO would be nice. But yeah, not gonna happen...

[engel]

Switching Valencia with the Autodromo Internacional do Algarve in Portimao, Portugal, IMO would be nice. But yeah, not gonna happen...

Valencia will be alternating with Barcelona for the Spanish Grand Prix from next year so ... unless they wanna turn it to the Iberian Peninsula GP it wouldn't work practically. Plus I have heard that Portimao while great in terms of layout is a bit too narrow for F1 to race in.

[TimRTC]

Who would be the promoter of it? Who would pay the licence fee for hosting an F1 grand prix there?
Also, there is an Italian Grand Prix already.

San Marino?


I agree with the original sentiment though, even if not specifically at Mugello. It would make for more of a challenge if there were some more high speed tracks included, such as the full-length straight version of Paul Ricard or the original Hockenheim with its forest runs. One interesting thing about Indycars is the difference between the ovals and the road tracks, which requires a completely different set-up and can often favour different drivers, I would love to see that sort of variation in F1.

[KWSN - DSM]

Who would be the promoter of it? Who would pay the licence fee for hosting an F1 grand prix there?


Also, there is an Italian Grand Prix already.


The fans must understand the basics; making the calendar is not by picking up nice tracks built on planet Earth.

Has happened before that multiple races were held in one country already hosting one.

Luxembourg Grand Prix 1997 and 1998 on the German track of Nürburgring
European Grand Prix before being given to Valencia have been held at Nürburgring, Germany, Jerez de la Frontera, Spain, Donington, England, Brands Hatch, England total of 21 European Grand Epreuves.
Pacific Grand Prix 1994 and 1995 at Aïda, Japan.
Swiss Grand Prix 1982 at Dijon-Prenois, France.
San Marino 21 times between 1981 and 2006 at Imola, Italy

So really think that fans know that if a race were to be held in a country which already have one, then it is very doable.

[keiichi]

Valencia will be alternating with Barcelona for the Spanish Grand Prix from next year so ... unless they wanna turn it to the Iberian Peninsula GP it wouldn't work practically. Plus I have heard that Portimao while great in terms of layout is a bit too narrow for F1 to race in.

Yeah, forgot that Valencia will be alternating with Barcelona, but instead of alternating between two Spanish tracks they could alternate just Barcelona with Portimao making an Iberian GP as you said. As for being to narrow for F1, I wouldn't say that it would be an issue. See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

It's basically an onboard from an A1 GP car and IMO I'd say that F1 could race there without any big issues at all...

Edited by keiichi, 02 May 2012 - 16:18.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's a nice lap but a terrible 'race'track for cars.

[Dunder]

What fairly god mix? It's all high downforce.
There is definitely nothing like Mugello on the calendar. Maybe Suzuka, but I think Mugello would be significantly faster.

Obviously hunnylander, this is just wishfull thinking.

Mugello would be medium/high downforce too (like Silverstone and, as you say, Suzuka).

The only places where the need to shed drag outweighs the need for speed through the corners are Monza and Montreal.

[keiichi]

It's a nice lap but a terrible 'race'track for cars.

Fair point, but I still think it is at least as good as a racetrack as Valencia and it certainly makes a better lap.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Valencia at least has some heavy brake zones. Mugello is just Silverstone minus the stops.

[sofarapartguy]

Valencia at least has some heavy brake zones. Mugello is just Silverstone minus the stops.

And that is what makes these tracks sooooooooooooo exiting.

Webbo's twit
http://twitter.com/#!/AussieGrit/statu...420171080634370

Did 10 dry laps today around Mugello, which is the same as doing 1000 laps around Abu Dhabi track in terms of satisfaction.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 02 May 2012 - 16:41.

[keiichi]

Valencia at least has some heavy brake zones. Mugello is just Silverstone minus the stops.

Sorry, thought you were talking about Portimao. My bad.

[Ross Stonefeld]

And that is what makes these tracks sooooooooooooo exiting.

Exciting to drive yeah, but for the fans there won't be much passing.

[sofarapartguy]

Exciting to drive yeah, but for the fans there won't be much passing.

DRS gives plenty of passing, but are they exiting?

Mugello track is way better than all Tilkedromes grabbed together. Even if there was no passing at all, racing there would be just crazy and breathtaking.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 02 May 2012 - 16:51.

[Dunder]

tungsten tarmac paul ricard style?
off topic but I am really curious about how the Pirellis would handle going across the red bits at Paul Ricard

on topic, Mugello is a great circuit to drive but it would be crap to race F1 in

Actually that was what I was thinking of.
We did see a few cars tear tyres to shreds when going off during FP at T8 in Turkey one year (2010?). Seems fair to me.

Edited by Dunder, 02 May 2012 - 16:56.

[hunnylander]

Has happened before that multiple races were held in one country already hosting one.

Luxembourg Grand Prix 1997 and 1998 on the German track of Nürburgring
European Grand Prix before being given to Valencia have been held at Nürburgring, Germany, Jerez de la Frontera, Spain, Donington, England, Brands Hatch, England total of 21 European Grand Epreuves.
Pacific Grand Prix 1994 and 1995 at Aïda, Japan.
Swiss Grand Prix 1982 at Dijon-Prenois, France.
San Marino 21 times between 1981 and 2006 at Imola, Italy

So really think that fans know that if a race were to be held in a country which already have one, then it is very doable.

Those were in an era which won't come back anytime soon. Nowadays European countries are struggling even to host a single GP on a yearly basis.

You didn't answer the questions; who would be the promoter, who would pay the licence fee?

[sharo]

Overtaking has never been a paramount, an absolute must for exciting races with the exception of the last 2-3 years. It's the chase and the fight which bring tension and excitement. And then, if an overtake happens, that's the bonus. Something to be remembered.
Overtaking left, right and center is just a false idea of real racing.

Edited by sharo, 02 May 2012 - 16:55.

[Ross Stonefeld]

That's just an ignorant idea of racing.

[Sakae]

Tilke is our favorite whipping boy, I realize that, but credit for new tracks should be shared with promoters/FOM (cost, demands on amenities), and developers who allocate usually unused and otherwise useless piece of land good for nothing else but entertainment. (Re: Korea).

Tilke works under a lot of restrictions before he draws a first line on a clean sheet of paper. His tracks are derivate what's left to him in terms of space, and money, as opposed to his starting point for a great circuit. One wonders that we have actually any track to race on. Natural tracks like traditional Imola, Spa and or Suzuka could not be created anymore with money allocated for such projects, thanks to other people than Mr. Tilke. Mugello is welcomed change in the routine, but it’s not used because teams are after brand exposure in new markets, and Mugello isn’t it. Money first, racing second (or third)?

[Risil]

Exciting to drive yeah, but for the fans there won't be much passing.

I'm not sure how much fans want "lots of passing", compared to cars simply being able to run close together. Monaco in 1992 (or even 1970!) and Imola in 2005 are remembered very fondly. And to switch genres, haven't they just repaved Bristol Motor Speedway because "the fans" demanded less passing? Anyway, Mugello has a pretty big braking zone at the end of the pit straight.

Can't see an F1 race working there though. The circuit's pretty difficult to get to and Mugello would struggle to win a "moral victory" if it meant taking Monza off the calendar. Its existence is an argument for having race series that aren't F1, however.

Edited by Risil, 02 May 2012 - 17:06.

[Atreiu]

Mugello would be medium/high downforce too (like Silverstone and, as you say, Suzuka).

The only places where the need to shed drag outweighs the need for speed through the corners are Monza and Montreal.

True.
Mugello alone wouldn't promote diversity but it would be a refreshing addition against any of these cookie cutter circuits in the middle of deserts.

I don't know how racy it would be. The main straight is very long, but I guess turbulence would be an issue at the last corner unless it were possible to take different lines through it. OTOH, as long as DRS and Pirelli stick around...

[Seanspeed]

I'm not sure how much fans want "lots of passing", compared to cars simply being able to run close together. Monaco in 1992 (or even 1970!) and Imola in 2005 are remembered very fondly. And to switch genres, haven't they just repaved Bristol Motor Speedway because "the fans" demanded less passing? Anyway, Mugello has a pretty big braking zone at the end of the pit straight.

Can't see an F1 race working there though. The circuit's pretty difficult to get to and Mugello would struggle to win a "moral victory" if it meant taking Monza off the calendar. Its existence is an argument for having race series that aren't F1, however.

Being able to race closer together is what creates the potential for overtaking. Its not like people just like seeing two cars nose-to-tail. They like the prospect of seeing some action and somebody being able to put one over on somebody else.

Your NASCAR example is irrelevant because F1 fans want completely different things to NASCAR fans. They repaved it because it was creating less 'bumping and shoving' which is obviously not what F1 fans want.

Mugello I think would work as an F1 track so long as they put DRS in there on the main straight. The braking zone at the end is decent after coming down from top speed, but its not as heavy a braking zone as China or anything. They'd all be running max downforce, too, minimizing the braking distances. But I think you could make up for that with DRS. Hell, even Barcelona looked raceable with the system. I'd like to see it.

But I think Portimao would be even better. The video posted above used the non-chicane version for Turn 1, but if you put that in there, it becomes much more of a hard-braking zone(its downhill as well). The last corner is easily flat in an F1 car, most likely still flat even if follow behind somebody closely, stretching the length of the 'straight' out a bit. End it with the hard-braking for the Turn 1 chicane, and its a genuine overtaking spot. Stick DRS on the entire straight from Turn 5 to Turn 6 to create an additional overtaking spot.

Here's a vid of GP2 running at with the chicane-Turn 1 version of Portimao.

[pingu666]

ive driven around mugello in a bunch of games, i dont get why its suddenly special and amazing and everyones got a hard on for it.

[Seanspeed]

ive driven around mugello in a bunch of games, i dont get why its suddenly special and amazing and everyones got a hard on for it.

What dont you like about it?

[BRK]

No thanks, Italy already hosts a pretty good race. Mugello doesn't suddenly become a great circuit just because Mark Webber says he likes the track, I'm sure someone like him enjoys racing at Spa and Silverstone, or at other quick tracks that aren't on the calendar, doesn't mean it's relevant.

[Risil]

It is a great circuit though.

[pingu666]

bunch of chicanes

its not like rouen or mosport which are scary fast.

[Seanspeed]

Mugello doesn't suddenly become a great circuit just because Mark Webber says he likes the track

What? Mugello is a great circuit regardless of what Webber says.

bunch of chicanes

its not like rouen or mosport which are scary fast.

There's a lot of quick sequences of corners where you need a car that can change direction well, but I wouldn't say there's a single 'chicane' on the track at all.

Here's a better video of an open-wheel actually driving in anger:



Video you posted was just a shakedown lap.

EDIT: Best lap time today averaged 143mph over the lap. They would certainly go a few seconds quicker if going all-out for qualifying, so it would most likely have a higher average speed than Spa.

Edited by Seanspeed, 02 May 2012 - 19:06.

[Cavani]

i very much agree with the opinion that says its a very good drivers circuit with high speed corners and direction change but in the race i dont want to see train of cars going around the circuit with only one spot to be able to overtake

[Atreiu]

Great video.

There are no chincanes, but fast left and right corner sequences. Chincanes are stop and go sections put to create overtaking zones or simply take the speeds down. Think of old Hockenheim, Monza, the first and famous bus stop or Abu Dhabi and you'll see the enormous difference. Or does anyone think the Parabolica is actually a hairpin?

The outright record is a 239,9 km/h lap done by Barrichello in 2004. That's damn fast for a circuit filled with chincanes if you ask me.

[Atreiu]

i very much agree with the opinion that says its a very good drivers circuit with high speed corners and direction change but in the race i dont want to see train of cars going around the circuit with only one spot to be able to overtake

If I had to guess, I'd say races there would be like Barcelona, but faster. And I think/guess there would be more overtaking because the last corner is less likely to create the slingshot effect and the first corner is more favourable to overtaking than Barcelona's first corner.

Who knows?

[Cavani]

If I had to guess, I'd say races there would be like Barcelona, but faster. And I think/guess there would be more overtaking because the last corner is less likely to create the slingshot effect and the first corner is more favourable to overtaking than Barcelona's first corner.

Who knows?

it would be better than barcelona but will have as many overtakes or less. and i want to see passing passing passing

[KWSN - DSM]

Those were in an era which won't come back anytime soon. Nowadays European countries are struggling even to host a single GP on a yearly basis.

You didn't answer the questions; who would be the promoter, who would pay the licence fee?

I stated factually that we have had multiple Grand Prix in same country for many many years, including up to and including 2011 so no need to hide behind an era which have passed regardless of how it fits your agenda.

As to who would pay, how would I know if a country saw a possible additional Grand Prix someone could be found, Do you know who pay for all the current Grand Prix's? Give me a race anywhere and I would raise the cash to host, I would lose money like almost all other promoters, but that is how the model works under the current regime.

[jee]

That are all s-curves and not chicanes, especially with an F1.
F.e. the bus stop chicane at watkins glen would be almost flat out with an F1 even though of the long straight before it.

[CroatiaALONSOfanclub]

Very very nice circuit much better than Bahrain for sure! it has the spirit like Imola!

[Seanspeed]

If I had to guess, I'd say races there would be like Barcelona, but faster. And I think/guess there would be more overtaking because the last corner is less likely to create the slingshot effect and the first corner is more favourable to overtaking than Barcelona's first corner.

Who knows?

The braking zone is pretty similar to Barcelona in terms of the corner not requiring you to slow down to a very low speed, but there's more straight for drivers to make use of a draft and pull alongside and they would be arriving at a slightly higher speed, extending the braking zone marginally. Combined with DRS, I'm sure it'd be a very legit overtaking spot.

Edited by Seanspeed, 02 May 2012 - 20:09.

[Hippo]

I'm sure driving a modern F1 car at Mugello is what every F1 driver would love to do. But I don't think it would be very pleasant to watch for the normal fans. Cars that rely heavily on aerodynamic downforce don't produce much entertainment for the fans on such circuits.

Heck, even a track like Monza is nowadays won by cars set up for corner speed as Vettel showed last year or 2 years ago. With limited engine power but ever more development in aerodynamics that's what happens.

And Spa is different. It has 2 extremely long quasi-straights, that are spiced up with bends which require balls to go through there full throttle. And between those 2 quasi-straights are 2 hairpins and the difficult downhill twisty section. This is why it produces good racing imho.

[RedOne]

I would 100% love to have this circuit on the calendar over tracks like Bahrain. Also Ferrari owns it and it's in Italy, what more could one ask for!

[Seanspeed]

I'm sure driving a modern F1 car at Mugello is what every F1 driver would love to do. But I don't think it would be very pleasant to watch for the normal fans. Cars that rely heavily on aerodynamic downforce don't produce much entertainment for the fans on such circuits.

Heck, even a track like Monza is nowadays won by cars set up for corner speed as Vettel showed last year or 2 years ago. With limited engine power but ever more development in aerodynamics that's what happens.

And Spa is different. It has 2 extremely long quasi-straights, that are spiced up with bends which require balls to go through there full throttle. And between those 2 quasi-straights are 2 hairpins and the difficult downhill twisty section. This is why it produces good racing imho.

Eau Rouge and Blanchimont require no balls to go through flat anymore, even with full tanks. They do it with ease and I even remember Vettel doing it one-handed to use the f-duct through it as well back in 2010.

[RedOne]

No thanks, Italy already hosts a pretty good race. Mugello doesn't suddenly become a great circuit just because Mark Webber says he likes the track, I'm sure someone like him enjoys racing at Spa and Silverstone, or at other quick tracks that aren't on the calendar, doesn't mean it's relevant.

Add Nico Rosberg to that list! He just went out of his way just to say what he thought of the track

[JimmyRecard]

I think the only driver to criticise the track has been Petrov so far. The poor guy is a little worried the walls are too close on certain parts of the track. Typical of some of these new boys coming in, so used to running on tilke-dromes with 2km of runoff, there's nothing wrong with a few consequences for running wide, tends to sort the wheat from the chaff and I suspect Mr Petrov to be chaff.

[AlexS]

The main straight is like the Suzuka straight maybe even a little longer, so passes can easily be done there.

[midgrid]

Did 10 dry laps today around Mugello, which is the same as doing 1000 laps around Abu Dhabi track in terms of satisfaction.

Wow, it must be really boring to equate to a thousand laps of Yas Marina.


Anyway, Mugello is a good track but I prefer Monza, as it's also a unique circuit: the last truly low-downforce track on the calendar.

[pingu666]

That are all s-curves and not chicanes, especially with an F1.
F.e. the bus stop chicane at watkins glen would be almost flat out with an F1 even though of the long straight before it.

blimey, your right

the later part of the lap at mugello is fairly quick, but reminds me alot nurbergring or magny cours, with fast chicanes/ or s bends
its a nice track, i just dont think its anything super special *shrugs*