243 replies to this topic

[Odyss]

Admittedly each choice covers a spectrum of responses. You're invited to choose Pirelli improves racing if you think Pirelli is the best thing since the iphone or you only mildly approve of them. Similarily, choose Pirelli prevents racing if you're in the Schumacher or even Jackie Stewart camp (Pirelli is dangerous..risks 'multiple car accidents') or are just mildly disappointed.

The other Bridgestone v Pirelli poll defined a very narrow frame of reference, and did not imho get to the heart of the debate. Lets see where the chips fall.

EDIT -- The poll is not trying to assign blame or credit to Pirelli. The tires/tyres can be bad/good for racing, and it may not be Pirelli's fault/or to their credit, though some may think that way.

Edited by Odyss, 09 May 2012 - 23:10.

[Dunder]

Improves or detracts are relative terms. What are we comparing to?

[Odyss]

Improves or detracts are relative terms. What are we comparing to?

Comparing to -- what you think racing tyres should be? Comparing them to an actual racing tire in a specific historical year, doesn't capture the full flavor of the current debate imo. Even if Pirelli is better than xyz 2007, are they helping racing in 2012? If cars have evolved tyres should too, and comparing tires across time is fraught with similar issues as comparing drivers across time.

[Dunder]

My view is that you cannot have racing which is both 'pure' and non-processional unless/until the movers and shakers take it upon themselves to control/regulate the turbulent wake produced by F1 cars.

As long as we have cars which understeer within 1.5 seconds of a car in front, we have a problem. Processional races were not good for the sport and the 'artificial' elements introduced by the Pirelli tyres and DRS are not a sustainable solution either.

Tyres are just the symptom.

[ascension]

I voted that they prevent proper racing!

[TheWilliamzer]

If the Pirellis were predictable and had a consistant rate of wear and were not just dying suddenly and gave the driver a possibility to push for a frame of time, I'll be happy regardless of the softness/hardness of the compounds.

So I can't really choose any poll option.

Edited by TheWilliamzer, 09 May 2012 - 23:19.

[Wander]

My view is that you cannot have racing which is both 'pure' and non-processional unless/until the movers and shakers take it upon themselves to control/regulate the turbulent wake produced by F1 cars.

As long as we have cars which understeer within 1.5 seconds of a car in front, we have a problem. Processional races were not good for the sport and the 'artificial' elements introduced by the Pirelli tyres and DRS are not a sustainable solution either.

Tyres are just the symptom.

I can agree with this.

I don't think Pirelli tyres really detract from racing. They make it different and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. The races this year have been exciting. I suspect that if indeed the aerodynamics were changed so that the problem of driving in "dirty air" disappeared, we could switch back to more long-lasting tyres.

[Sakae]

Based on their history, should Pirelli decide to change a manager, I think a more capable person would give us a tire with proper pedigree. They can do it, but they have wrong people in charge right now.

[Vesuvius]

People are never satisfied, it`s thanks to Pirelli that we now have exciting races with lot`s of overtaking, in the past people complained races were boring because of no overtaking but now when we finally have overtaking and Pirelli is the main reason for this, people complain it spoils racing? :s

[Sakae]

People are never satisfied, it`s thanks to Pirelli that we now have exciting races with lot`s of overtaking, in the past people complained races were boring because of no overtaking but now when we finally have overtaking and Pirelli is the main reason for this, people complain it spoils racing? :s

A few posts back someone had an apt analogy; paraphrasing, we have a racing alright, but it's like playing a football with wet ball. Could be done, but with a dry ball is much better game. I think the same way about tires.

Edited by Sakae, 10 May 2012 - 00:21.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Wtf is 'proper racing'?

[ali_M]

Wtf is 'proper racing'?

If you're looking for some fancy definition for that then I guess, don't vote. There's a spirit to the pole that's quite clear and straightforward.

[GotYoubyTheBalls]

W need Goodyear to make a good rock hard compound to last a full distance and then male a qualifying tyre as well. Then a few compounds in between.

We need to get rid of the cars we have now. Wings are giving off turbulent air.

We need to get rid of DRS

We need ground effect cars

We need Manual shift boxes 5 speed maximum

We need unlimited gear box changes

We need freedom on enigine choice, V10 V8 V12 Flat 12 turbo

We need no car park run offs

We need worse reliability. Racing was fun to watch when machine was being pushed to its limits. You knew everyone was pushing when engines were exploding left right and center. Both developmentally and during the race. This also gave oppurtunity for smaller teams on the podium.

What we dont need is 24 safe cars cruising around at 100% reliability because every bit of mechanical development possible was perfected 2 or 3 years ago.

This is F1

[Sakae]

good stuff

[BellisEndis]

do we need ANOTHER thread on this garbage...

[BigCHrome]

We need proper tires that can actually be pushed. They should degrade, but you should be able to get 15+ laps of hard racing first.

[V8 Fireworks]

We need Manual shift boxes 5 speed maximum

...

This is F1

So the people driving to the track in their Mercedes-Benz people mover will have a seven-speed paddle shifter, and the race cars will be limited to 5 speeds and a good ol' h-pattern. I don't follow! Sure blame Ferrari for their stupid and widely copied button and later paddle shifting system but it's hardly the FIA's fault.

[V8 Fireworks]

They should degrade, but you should be able to get 15+ laps of hard racing first.

And if you don't push and get 30 laps??? What will you do?

Go 0.5s faster for 15 lap and make a pitstop and then go again (gaining only 7.5 s), or go 0.5s/lap slower and save a pitstop?

[BigCHrome]

And if you don't push and get 30 laps??? What will you do?

Go 0.5s faster for 15 lap and make a pitstop and then go again (gaining only 7.5 s), or go 0.5s/lap slower and save a pitstop?

Nothing. Because they don't have to be that hard. Even if it worked out like that, it would still be better.

Now we have drivers trying to go slow as possible to just to make sure the tires don't crap out in 5 laps.

[DanardiF1]

Some light reading on this subject (apologies for the plug)...

http://dancleggf1.wo...one-too-far-12/

I think we are getting to the point where enough is enough. In trying to make tyres important again, Pirelli have gone too far and made a tyre that no-one can push on for more than a couple of laps.

[pingu666]

if there was tyre compertion then a tyre is made to have the fastest elapsed time, plus some other varibles like feel, toughness etc

apart from toughness (theres only be a couple of times ive seen something structuraly wrong with a tyre), pirelli are quite far from that, but they seem to want to be :/

[stevesingo]

If the tyres are used within their optimum operating window, the I think the level of degredstion is fine. The issue is that the operating window is too narrow. We find now that there is inconsistancy as to the performance a teal my get from the tyre changes from event to event, so at on event team A's car is in the window and team B is not, and this changes every event so far this year. The window must be wide enough for the majority of teams to be in the operating window at the majority of events. Then if a driver chooses to push, he doesn't face a disproportionate penalty in degredation due to the increased tyre temp this causes.

[packapoo]

What an absolutely useless and pointless post!

Try something along these lines for a poll:

1. Pirelli tyres suck.

2. Pirelli tyres don't suck.

I'd be punting on the suck.

An old and trusted name on the round black things with the hole in the middle, is getting trashed in the Mickey Mouse lottery they're driving, yet the Pirelli hierarchy don't seem to be noticing. Not an MSchu fan but presently he's talking sense.

[iotar]

Another worthless 'OMG tyres - made up problem' thread.

What annoys me the most that if you asked independently all tyres whiners if there's something wrong just from watching the races they wouldn't notice a difference . But since they heard about from an old, bitter, disgruntled mid-life crisis type of guy, there's some agenda behind it and media amplified it, they are all smart and smug. Stroking their chins and saying, oh yes we the connoisseurs, those tyres, ehh. Mindlessly repeating it without own reflection.

The same happened with flexing wings, it came in waves, when some TV commentators knew what was on the agenda and talked about it so did the general public. When they didn't, general public pretended it was solved (you see FIA did something). While in fact it was the same all the time.

Just because one or two drivers don't enjoy themselves doesn't mean I'm not enjoying myself. Guess what? I don't care if they are not enjoying themselves as long as the races are great. And they certainly WERE GREAT this season.

OMG "they're not pushing 100" is particularly annoying. Have you heard of engine saving modes? Have you heard of hold station orders? Have you heard of 'I have a gap so I'm fine'? Have you heard of 'I'll stay longer so I can overtake in the pits'? Have you heard of 'overtaking is difficult', I give up on trying? Or 'overtaking is difficult' so 'I have nothing to worry about'. Have you heard of 'I need to take care about engine/gerabox/whatever else beside tyres'? Have you heard of 'I'm in front on points' or 'way behind on points' no point in risking?

'Not 100% pushing' made up problem happens, happened and will happen all the time. Guess what? Now it's the same for everybody, thus it creates more wheel to wheel racing.

Hembery put it best, you wanted the tyres like that (Ross Brawn cough, cough), so now if you want something else and you can agree on it, go on and do it instead of lobbying in public. Fat chance, he knows that teams can't agree on anything, don't know what they want and can change their minds five times in the process.

Not matter what, there will be someone who is bad at something, can benefit from the change and will complain. There would be complaints about any set of rules, tyres, anything. Until teams agree unanimously that there is a problem and actually DO something about it this fake discussion is pointless.

Or at least stop acting like there is some golden standard of F1 racing to which current tyres don't conform. BS, when cars that are 1-2 seconds faster are nowhere near the overtake they don't push 100% either.

[iotar]

BTW another nice choice of options poll to steer it in the direction OP wanted. Five negative ones and one positive choice type of.

With every poll here there should be a disclaimer: remember that these people 'voted' double world champion and arguably the best F1 driver as a 'pay-driver'. And a wink/facepalm emoticons.

[blackonyx4]

W need Goodyear to make a good rock hard compound to last a full distance and then male a qualifying tyre as well. Then a few compounds in between.

...

This is F1

Here you go

[ivand911]

Hembery put it best, you wanted the tyres like that (Ross Brawn cough, cough), so now if you want something else and you can agree on it, go on and do it instead of lobbying in public. Fat chance, he knows that teams can't agree on anything, don't know what they want and can change their minds five times in the process.

iotar ,tell us exactly what tyres RB wanted from Pirelli(in 2010)? Pirelli 2011 or Pirelli 2012 or Bridgestone 2010(Canada style). For sure he didn't want narrow tyre window and tyres that work differently on different cars. Did they have to change half of the car to make tyre work on their cars in 2010? I guess not. If tyres have different performance on different cars in same conditions( I mean something bigger that 0,2sec) then tyes are not the same. You don't have to change your car to suit the tyres.

[Lazy]

Based on their history, should Pirelli decide to change a manager, I think a more capable person would give us a tire with proper pedigree. They can do it, but they have wrong people in charge right now.

Pirelli are just doing what they were asked, the manager is perfectly capable.

The only issue I have this year is the temperature sensitivity which is a bit random but I'm sure they are working on this.

I have to say I have enjoyed every race so far this season, even when my driver has done badly, which is a lot more than can be said for the Bridgestone years, I think people forget just how boring the races were.

It's pretty much impossible to control by regulation the dirty air behind a car, push anything through the air at 200 mph and it will leave a long wake.

F1 is difficult, if the tyres are a problem, it's up to the engineers to come up with technical solutions and the drivers to drive accordingly, as it always has been.

Drivers who can't adapt aren't good enough for this formula.

[BellisEndis]

iotar ,tell us exactly what tyres RB wanted from Pirelli(in 2010)? Pirelli 2011 or Pirelli 2012 or Bridgestone 2010(Canada style). For sure he didn't want narrow tyre window and tyres that work differently on different cars. Did they have to change half of the car to make tyre work on their cars in 2010? I guess not. If tyres have different performance on different cars in same conditions( I mean something bigger that 0,2sec) then tyes are not the same. You don't have to change your car to suit the tyres.

how the car is setup (and designed) WILL effect the tyres and it isn't the tyres fault and it is up to the team to make the car work with the tyres... Same thing happen in every form of motorsport that uses tyres ;)

[ivand911]

how the car is setup (and designed) WILL effect the tyres and it isn't the tyres fault and it is up to the team to make the car work with the tyres... Same thing happen in every form of motorsport that uses tyres ;)

Where it happens with 1,5 sec difference? What setup can beat that? How there wasn't such big problem even last year? So, it is the tyres, that were made even softer and with narrow window, to challenge the teams. It is not the cars, they are different every year. But , tyres suit them all in the past, when 2012 tyres suit only some teams in every race. Which tyre window is easy to miss , 10 degree or 30 degree one? If tyres were the same like last year, there wouldn't be so many tyre threads. Everyone can hit the bigger window. They all can push more and we can be happy and see real racing. Teams can focus on car development.

Edited by ivand911, 10 May 2012 - 07:47.

[sharo]

how the car is setup (and designed) WILL effect the tyres and it isn't the tyres fault and it is up to the team to make the car work with the tyres... Same thing happen in every form of motorsport that uses tyres ;)

Problem is that they design their cars based on accumulated data only to find out that the tyres have been changed in the meantime.

[jamiegc]

Couldnt this have gone in one of the many other Pirelli hysteria threads?

[ivand911]

Couldnt this have gone in one of the many other Pirelli hysteria threads?

You mean the poll? I doubt that. Who is you favorite team and driver?

[BellisEndis]

Where it happens with 1,5 sec difference? What setup can beat that? How there wasn't such big problem even last year? So, it is the tyres, that were made even softer and with narrow window, to challenge the teams. It is not the cars, they are different every year. But , tyres suit them all in the past, when 2012 tyres suit only some teams in every race. Which tyre window is easy to miss , 10 degree or 30 degree one? If tyres were the same like last year, there wouldn't be so many tyre threads. Everyone can hit the bigger window. They all can push more and we can be happy and see real racing. Teams can focus on car development.

well if the tyres don't work it is time to re think your car design.. Everyone else has to use the same tyres, so we are seeing real racing..

Problem is that they design their cars based on accumulated data only to find out that the tyres have been changed in the meantime.

See above, time to rethink your design then with the new data you have collected from tests and 4 GPs... Oh and the teams knew of the tyres changing it is not like they have been thrown this giant curve ball (and some random lottery of which tyres teams get each week) which all you guys keep harping on about..

Edited by BellisEndis, 10 May 2012 - 09:12.

[ivand911]

well if the tyres don't work change it is time to re think your car design.. Everyone else has to use the same tyres we are seeing real racing..

See above, time to rethink your design then..

How that wasn't problem before? Then tyres have to change. How is that cost saving if you have to change your car design? It is better to have tyres that work on all cars(like last year, and year before, and year before and year before and in 1992,1991,1990 and ....). Not to make them artificially challenging. We want to see cars and drivers in battle , not in resolving tyre puzzle.
Who is you favorite team and driver?
I don't know why everyone is hiding their favorite driver and team(fill it in your profile). Are you embarrassed? Are you ashamed?

Edited by ivand911, 10 May 2012 - 09:17.

[Lennat]

Best thing since the iPhone? Well... I don't really like iPhones and much prefer Android devices, but it doesn't change the fact that pretty much every current smart phone owes it existence to the iPhone. And even if the first iPhones were complete crap (they got descent by the time of the 3GS and pretty good by the iPhone 4 if you ask me) you can't deny the fact they they laid a lot of ground for other phone makers. I had an iPhone 3G that absolutely SUCKED compared to the Nokia that it replaced, slower, worse camera, less functions in general... BUT, it still had some nice functions as well, that I surely didn't wanna lose either.

One could apply the same logic to the tires: In some aspects, the current Pirellis DO suck compared to the Bridgestones they replaced, but in some ways they don't. Better or worse in total? Good question. But if they tried to combine the good things from both, something better than EITHER could be created. That would be tires that didn't last forever, but could still be pushed for a reasonable number of laps.

[BellisEndis]

How that wasn't problem before? Then tyres have to change. How is that cost saving if you have to change your car design? It is better to have tyres that work on all cars(like last year, and year before, and year before and year before and in 1992,1991,1990 and ....). Not to make them artificially challenging. We want to see cars and drivers in battle , not in resolving tyre puzzle.

we have what we have just let it be for **** sake... there doesn't seem to be any plans to change anything from the FIA so just shut up with all the artificial racing/mario kart racing/ tyre lottery crap; you and other have kept on saying all this **** over many threads and the argument keeps going in circles because ultimately EVERYONE HAS TO USE THE SAME TYRES and it is up to the team to make them work not just give them easier tyres to use.. it is clear some don't like it but many do so lets just give it a rest till after the weekend at least and see how the tyres go in Spain..





Edit, driver/team has nothing to do with my opinion on tyres, if it did I should of been making all these polls and shitty threads about them last year when MW had problems all year... Also you all talk of making tyres do this and that, I don't think it is as easy as just plugging some numbers into a computer and press make tyre haha...

Edited by BellisEndis, 10 May 2012 - 09:29.

[ivand911]

But if they tried to combine the good things from both, something better than EITHER could be created. That would be tires that didn't last forever, but could still be pushed for a reasonable number of laps.

10-12 will be OK. I feel that some fans don't want fair fight, they want to have advantage, because they are not sure enough in their driver or team can do it without tyre advantage, they think they have. That is, some fans are insecure about their favorite driver/team.

Edited by ivand911, 10 May 2012 - 09:40.

[Ali_G]

How many more threads are we going to have on this rubbish.

DRS which is abominable in my opinion doesn't get as much coverage on here.

[ivand911]

we have what we have just let it be for **** sake... there doesn't seem to be any plans to change anything from the FIA so just shut up with all the artificial racing/mario kart racing/ tyre lottery crap; you and other have kept on saying all this **** over many threads and the argument keeps going in circles because ultimately EVERYONE HAS TO USE THE SAME TYRES and it is up to the team to make them work not just give them easier tyres to use.. it is clear some don't like it but many do so lets just give it a rest till after the weekend at least and see how the tyres go in Spain..

What are you doing in this thread then? Nobody put you here against your will. You are free to go! Why are you answering me?
Who tell Pirelli to give them complicated tyres? Teams ask about that? I am sure all teams want easy tyres, that just do the job. So ,the teams can focus on racing.
It is against the forum rules to say to somebody to shut up!!!!

Edited by ivand911, 10 May 2012 - 09:32.

[Kraken]

Here we go again. Every day there seems to be another thread about tyres. When will people realise that the vast majority of people are perfectly happy with the way it is now and the minority who aren't happy are never going to be. Creating thread after thread which spiral down into the same arguments is not going to solve anything.

See here for some sanity and a view that most people share - http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99464

[ali_M]

Another worthless 'OMG tyres - made up problem' thread.

What annoys me the most that if you asked independently all tyres whiners if there's something wrong just from watching the races they wouldn't notice a difference . But since they heard about from an old, bitter, disgruntled mid-life crisis type of guy, there's some agenda behind it and media amplified it, they are all smart and smug. Stroking their chins and saying, oh yes we the connoisseurs, those tyres, ehh. Mindlessly repeating it without own reflection.
......

So if you find out that a particular team is cheating to gain an unfair advantage, would you have necessarily been able to tell the difference from honest competitiveness by watching the races? I think you get my point.

Even then, this is still different.

I've been watching drivers helplessly passed because their tyres are shot from race to race. I watched Nico have to manage his tyres for most of his final stint in China and was wondering if he'd get overhauled by Button who may not have ended up having the same issue with his tyres. Turns out that he was also similarly castrated in pace.

When I really found things odd was when I witnessed Kimi's fall from 2nd in China. Never in my years of watching F1 have I seen a car and driver drop from 2nd to 12th within 2 laps and there's nothing wrong with either car or driver or for that matter, tyres. That's how the tyres work!!! Deal with it... it's the same for everyone, right?

Schumacher's progress through the field in Bahrain was quite unexciting. Hamilton has been less exciting with his racing of late. It's been put down to a more mature approach. Now we know what's really happening. The pieces of the puzzle fell into place with Michael's comments.

We all get a buzz with the knowledge of the tech that goes into the cars. We all get a buzz out of the knowledge of what the drivers go through and need to be capable of to drive the cars on the limit. We get a buzz out of seeing the evidence of this, when they lose control, and the things they say after the racing and what they say over the radios.

I don't know how you'd manage without hearing anything from the drivers etc. during and around the races.

Michael has spoken in a way that he has never had... it can't be ignored. There's no imagined problem here. There's evidence and we can see it.

[skid solo]

Improves or detracts are relative terms. What are we comparing to?

Just vote.. already...

[BellisEndis]

What are you doing in this thread then? Nobody put you here against your will. You are free to go! Why are you answering me?
Who tell Pirelli to give them complicated tyres? Teams ask about that? I am sure all teams want easy tyres, that just do the job. So ,the teams can focus on racing.

you keep talking about racing, but tyres are the most important thing in RACING; they are the only thing that connects the car to the track, so the team should be focusing on them ;-)

I'm in this thread because of muppets like you..

Edited by BellisEndis, 10 May 2012 - 09:34.

[BellisEndis]

When I really found things odd was when I witnessed Kimi's fall from 2nd in China. Never in my years of watching F1 have I seen a car and driver drop from 2nd to 12th within 2 laps and there's nothing wrong with either car or driver or for that matter, tyres. That's how the tyres work!!! Deal with it... it's the same for everyone, right?

I'm not too sure why it is so hard to believe that once you drive on these Pirellis out side their operating window you WILL LOSE SECONDS A LAP, yes the window can be small but that's just how it is going to be for this year at least... I don't see the problem here, we have seen other drivers lose out as from it and no doubt see it again..

[FenderJaguar]

Here we go again. Every day there seems to be another thread about tyres...

Edited by FenderJaguar, 10 May 2012 - 09:44.

[Abranet]

Quite happy with the tyres degradation rates, just don't think they should be so fussy about being in the zone. A team should not be able to design a WDC contending car only to be undone by using a tyre that can make the car uncompetitive, something which they have no control or input into. The tyres should be slapped on the car and not become the defining factor if a car is quick or not.

Edited by Abranet, 10 May 2012 - 09:46.

[ali_M]

Here we go again. Every day there seems to be another thread about tyres. When will people realise that the vast majority of people are perfectly happy with the way it is now and the minority who aren't happy are never going to be. Creating thread after thread which spiral down into the same arguments is not going to solve anything.

See here for some sanity and a view that most people share - http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99464

Gee... could have been Bernie talking there. Bernie would be happy there.

His comments are a commercial one and he needs his sponsors. Which team boss in his right mind will say anything, and I mean, anything to make the sport seem officially and deliberately artificial. They'll scream about cheating, unfairness of rules and perpetuated unfair advantages. Why? It's not just and it's not honest racing. The public loves this since it ensures honest racing. The perception of honesty and fairness is essential to the overall appreciation of the proceedings, whether such honesty is genuinely there or not.

The tyre issue is quite different. It's the same for everyone and Pirelli's approach has apparently been officially sanctioned. Even though, I think it's overdone and a lot may be happening under the public eye to address this. No team principal will speak against it. It would be crazy. You simply cannot use a team principal's word on an issue as this since he has a team to run and sponsors to please.

Michael has been bold to even mention it and persistently so. It takes someone in a special position to feel reasonably safe in saying anything of that nature especially since there are 4 winners after 4 races.....etc!!

[FenderJaguar]

Michael has never been "bold". He wants an advantage/or a way out.

Edited by FenderJaguar, 10 May 2012 - 09:52.

[Kraken]

Gee... could have been Bernie talking there. Bernie would be happy there.

His comments are a commercial one and he needs his sponsors. Which team boss in his right mind will say anything, and I mean, anything to make the sport seem officially and deliberately artificial. They'll scream about cheating, unfairness of rules and perpetuated unfair advantages. Why? It's not just and it's not honest racing. The public loves this since it ensures honest racing. The perception of honesty and fairness is essential to the overall appreciation of the proceedings, whether such honesty is genuinely there or not.

The tyre issue is quite different. It's the same for everyone and Pirelli's approach has apparently been officially sanctioned. Even though, I think it's overdone and a lot may be happening under the public eye to address this. No team principal will speak against it. It would be crazy. You simply cannot use a team principal's word on an issue as this since he has a team to run and sponsors to please.

Michael has been bold to even mention it and persistently so. It takes someone in a special position to feel reasonably safe in saying anything of that nature especially since there are 4 winners after 4 races.....etc!!

The point is that the majority of viewers just don't care if the racing is artificial or not. They want action and excitement which is what the current F1 is delivering.

Team principals are running multi-million pound businesses so they will happy with what keeps the viewers happy. Why on earth would they want to make "non-artificial" racing that only hard core fans find interesting?