67 replies to this topic

[david venables]

Does anyone have photos of this race or can someone direct me to a source. I am particularly interested in Aston Martin race. no 42 driven by Freddie Clifford

[john medley]

For event description try Anthony Blight's "French Sports Car Revolution" -- but no Aston Martin pic there,
and John Medley's "John Snow Classic Motor Racer"-- none there either

[Otto Grabe]

Does anyone have photos of this race or can someone direct me to a source. I am particularly interested in Aston Martin race. no 42 driven by Freddie Clifford

Try the Pilette archives. There is at least one photo of DLB 53B.
Otto

[david venables]

Try the Pilette archives. There is at least one photo of DLB 53B.
Otto

Many thanks, can you give me the web adress of the Pilette Archives please.

[Vitesse2]

Many thanks, can you give me the web adress of the Pilette Archives please.

It's not a formal archive as such. Are you on Facebook, David?

http://www.facebook....antoine.pilette

[david venables]

It's not a formal archive as such. Are you on Facebook, David?

http://www.facebook....antoine.pilette

Unfortunately I am not on Facebook. Does he have an email address, if not I will get a family member who is on Facebook to make conatct

[Elwing]

A brief Google of the search term in Dutch ("groote prijs van Antwerpen") got me this great photograph. I live in Antwerp, and I was unaware of this piece of local motoring history. Thank you for pointing this out! It looks like the circuit was on "Linkeroever".. If the information under the link is correct, all the streets are still there. Maybe I will go there and do a lap. On my bicycle, yeah!

[Tim Murray]

Unfortunately I am not on Facebook. Does he have an email address, if not I will get a family member who is on Facebook to make conatct

Antoine posts here as 'Pils1989':

http://forums.autosp...?showuser=11020

although he hasn't checked in since March. His email address in the above profile is:

swisscow@hotmail.com

[Tim Murray]

Maybe I will go there and do a lap. On my bicycle, yeah!

Please take a camera - we'd love to see photographs of the old circuit.

[david venables]

Antoine posts here as 'Pils1989':

http://forums.autosp...?showuser=11020

although he hasn't checked in since March. His email address in the above profile is:

swisscow@hotmail.com

Thank you Tim, I have emailed him. Adam Ferrington came up with an alternative email address, so one or the other should find him,

[Elwing]

Please take a camera - we'd love to see photographs of the old circuit.

I might do that, but for now you can use Google street view to do a virtual lap. Start was on the Halewijnlaan, where the Sint-Anna college is now, southern direction, and (assuming the race was run clockwise??)the turn right at the Chinese restaurant, Blancefloerlaan (N70), until you get to a roundabout. A small lane, Dwarslaan, starts there, and ends abruptly, cut off by the connection of the R1 highway, which was built later. A small portion of the Dwarslaan is no longer accessible for cars, but it is still there and I should be able to get there on bike. This ends on the Charles de Costerlaan (N49a), where the pits must have been. Then again right at the gas station, and we're back on the Halewijnlaan , to the finish and the location where the photograph that was posted above was probably taken. Linkeroever ("Left Bank") was a newly laid out city extension then, and wide open polderland. But now the area is surrounded by old trees. It's quite nice.


*edit because of typo

Edited by Elwing, 12 May 2012 - 17:13.

[Tim Murray]

Thanks, Elwing.

[david venables]

Thanks, Elwing.

There is an aerial photo with the outline of the cicuit superimposed on it at http://antwerpgrandprix.wordpress.com/

[Elwing]

There is an aerial photo with the outline of the cicuit superimposed on it at http://antwerpgrandprix.wordpress.com/

Yes, that's the one I followed. How correct it is I cannot say, but the length is roughly 6 kms, so it's looking good. Also, if I get really bored one of these days, I may visit the offices for the local newspaper, de Gazet van Antwerpen and ask them if I can have a look into their archives. Their office is actually right at the Blancefloerlaan. But, I have no idea if they allow this.

[Vitesse2]

Yes, that's the one I followed. How correct it is I cannot say, but the length is roughly 6 kms, so it's looking good. Also, if I get really bored one of these days, I may visit the offices for the local newspaper, de Gazet van Antwerpen and ask them if I can have a look into their archives. Their office is actually right at the Blancefloerlaan. But, I have no idea if they allow this.

By my reckoning - based on back-calculations from published race speeds in km/h - the circuit was 6.005km. Martin Krejci has it at 6.437km, which I suspect has been calculated from a British race report which said that it was 4 miles.

[Rob Semmeling]

The circuit map is correct, of course. I believe the exact track length of this uninspiring angular course was 6.011 km (from a newspaper clipping, I think).

Here are the reports of the Antwerp GP from Dutch magazine "Motor":

http://www.wegcircui...ntwerpen_01.jpg
http://www.wegcircui...ntwerpen_02.jpg
http://www.wegcircui...P_Antwerpen.jpg

Antwerp hosted two further road race meetings: a motorcycle race on 03.09.1950 and a Formula 3 race on 09.05.1954. All Antwerp meetings took place in the same area, on the western-bank of the Scheldt river.

[Rob Semmeling]

And here is the programme cover for the 1938 event (scanned from one of Delsaux's books):

http://www.progcover...erpen380522.jpg

[Vitesse2]

Well, what's 6 metres between friends ;) I think the speeds I had may have only been to two decimals, so over an 84-lap race that's well within an acceptable margin of error.

Edited by Vitesse2, 13 May 2012 - 08:38.

[D-Type]

The circuit map is correct, of course. I believe the exact track length of this uninspiring angular course was 6.011 km (from a newspaper clipping, I think).

Here are the reports of the Antwerp GP from Dutch magazine "Motor":

~

Interesting - I see the writer of the report is Jacques Ickx

Edited by D-Type, 13 May 2012 - 09:32.

[Elwing]

Ooo all that woolly pre-war language. Thanks Rob! I will give it a thorough read tomorrow, too late now.

[Vitesse2]

Can anyone shed any light on the mysterious Impérias which were in the entry list in 1938? I find Blight's explanation less than convincing ...

[Doug Nye]

Best we can do - I suspect the (tiny) fourth car here might be Clifford's Aston.



The Antwerp paddock area...

Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

Edited by Doug Nye, 13 May 2012 - 22:55.

[david venables]

Best we can do - I suspect the (tiny) fourth car here might be Clifford's Aston.



The Antwerp paddock area...

Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

Thank you Doug. My problem is solved if someone can confirm that Clifford's Aston Martin was a 2-litre carrying the reg. no BLB 538. Otto mentioned DLB 53B which is very close

Edited by david venables, 13 May 2012 - 23:38.

[Otto Grabe]

Thank you Doug. My problem is solved if someone can confirm that Clifford's Aston Martin was a 2-litre carrying the reg. no BLB 538. Otto mentioned DLB 53B which is very close

I hope it goes with the TNF regulations. If not

David, judge yourself. IMHO 2 litres because of the starting number: The bigger cars wore numbers from 2 through 24 and the 2-litre class from 26 upward.
Otto

Edited by Otto Grabe, 14 May 2012 - 07:17.

[Doug Nye]

"Hello, Directline claims department?" - just found this amongst our few Antwerp negs...presumably Gaston Serraud's car from the over 2-litre race. Scratch one Delahaye, in any case.

On another tack, interested to notice that the SS Jaguar pictured in the paddock photo above was apparently Leon Sven's. Presumably the same Leon Sven who postwar became organiser of RACB events at the Spa-Francorchamps circuit, and whom I remember presiding there way into the late 1960s or early '70s?

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 14 May 2012 - 09:41.

[david venables]

I hope it goes with the TNF regulations. If not

David, judge yourself. IMHO 2 litres because of the starting number: The bigger cars wore numbers from 2 through 24 and the 2-litre class from 26 upward.
Otto

Otto, brilliant! Problem solved, it is a 2-litre and was sadly the car in which Richard Stallebrass was killed at Spa in 1948. For many years it has been said in AMOC records that Clifford drove LM21 a 1.5 litre which was then alleged to belong to Mathieson. The contemporary press reports said it was a 1.5 which added to the confusion. I have always believed that Mathieson had sold LM21 in the autumn of 1937 to George Taylor, a friend of my father as I remember the car in my childhood. Some Aston "experts" said I was wrong, even though George assured me in the 1960s that he had bought the car in 1937. Perhaps I will now be able to put the record straight.

[Otto Grabe]

"Hello, Directline claims department?" - just found this amongst our few Antwerp negs...presumably Gaston Serraud's car from the over 2-litre race. Scratch one Delahaye, in any case.

DCN

I do not think 1938. No 12 was Pierre Goldschmid, Bugatti 43A, dnf (in the back of your paddock-area pic and also in the middle of the second row in the grid picture Elwing linked to), Serraud was #20.
But maybe 1939. Near the bottom of the left column of Rob's report (http://www.wegcircui...P_Antwerpen.jpg) an incident is mentioned concerning the Delahaye of Paul. I'm not capable of translating it in a proper way...

Otto

Edited by Otto Grabe, 14 May 2012 - 10:42.

[Vitesse2]

Just realised that, Otto: the number 12 is just faintly visible on the Bugatti on the grid picture.

edit: one problem! Paul was apparently #18 in 1939!

http://wsrp.ic.cz/prewar1939.html#4

Edited by Vitesse2, 14 May 2012 - 10:47.

[Otto Grabe]

edit: one problem! Paul was apparently #18 in 1939!

http://wsrp.ic.cz/prewar1939.html#4

Richard, you are right indeed. But in the 2nd heat ...
12 Robert Mazaud (F) Delahaye 135CS 46094? Robert Mazaud DNF

Otto

[Spaceframe]

(assuming the race was run clockwise??)

It was indeed run clockwise:

http://theracingline...racingcircuits/

[Doug Nye]

Richard, you are right indeed. But in the 2nd heat ...
12 Robert Mazaud (F) Delahaye 135CS 46094? Robert Mazaud DNF

Otto

Interesting if this was Robert Mazaud's Delahaye. If that is so then the poor chap bracketed the war with massive racing accidents, folding his Delahaye around a tree here at Antwerp in 1939 and then suffering his fatal accident at Nantes in 1946 in a Maserati 4CL. He was regarded as a hard charger, as well as being under dark suspicion postwar since some (but not all) had denounced him as a collaborator. But at Nantes, if the reports are to be believed, it seems his Maserati 4CL was barged off the road when trying to overtake Louis Gerard's wandering old ex-Etancelin 8CM...

DCN

[Elwing]

I do not think 1938. No 12 was Pierre Goldschmid, Bugatti 43A, dnf (in the back of your paddock-area pic and also in the middle of the second row in the grid picture Elwing linked to), Serraud was #20.
But maybe 1939. Near the bottom of the left column of Rob's report (http://www.wegcircui...P_Antwerpen.jpg) an incident is mentioned concerning the Delahaye of Paul. I'm not capable of translating it in a proper way...

Otto

Let me see if I can translate that for you in my own questionable way. Writer sure likes his lines long and complicated. I left out the last bit, which was about a motercycle race that was also run that day (350cc). The sportscar race was run in 3 manches (sets, rounds? etappes?)


"Now that we have again passed the tunnel under the river Sheld, and have left behind the lovely landscape of Left-Bank, lit by bright sunlight all afternoon, we return in our thoughts to the magnificent day of sports, which we experienced there, and then several conflicting thoughts appear to us

On one side glows the great admiration for the performance of the new uncompressed 12-cylinder 4,5 liter Alfa's, which Farina and Sommer steered to victory with incomprehensible ease.

The two Alfa Romeo's were entirely new models, that were baptised in fire for the first time here. As opposed to popular expectation, they entirely followed the example of the 1,5 liter Mercedesses in Tripolis, and turned out to be free of any teething troubles, so that they could finish both the training and the race without any problems, and this with an avarage speed that was 10 km/h higher than that of the previous year.

From a purely sportsmanlike-technical point of view this is admirable, but this overwhelming superiority took from this race an important factor, namely the suspense.

Now we can only ponder what would have happened if just the drivers of Delage, Delahaye and Talbot would have battled "between them" for the victory.
Because they tried so viciously and with so much fire and bravery to attack the front group that this -as futile as beautiful- fight was the high point of the day.


The race was run in 3 etappes of 102 kms each. At the start of each etappe Farina literally jumped to the front, and put a good distance between himself and the field, while Sommer in turn only needed just two laps to extract himself from the field of backmarkers and get far in front of the field.
But almost immediately the whole lot of french drivers, Monneret (Delage) Gérard (Delage) Paul (Delahaye) and Mazaud (Delahaye) threaded on the heels of the two leaders and decreased their lead down to a few meters.

All of this at the price of a sensational demonstration of artful driving and bravery, which came very close to the limit of human ability. Wheel to wheel the four cars stormed trough the corners, passing each other three, four times a lap, by surprise.

Then the speed became too powerful, and each in turn has to give up a few places. Gérard at first, after a successful "spin". Paul leaves the track, without harm to himself or the audience, but his car is worse for wear and he has to give up. Both others, Mazaud and Monneret, see their efforts crowned with success and they manage to get within 5 seconds of front man Farina. Only the end of the etappe prevents them from decreasing the distance even more
In the first etappe Farina is the winner with a time of 43 minutes, 52 seconds, followed by Sommer (43 min, 54 sec) Mazaud (43 min, 57 sec), Monneret (43 min, 59 sec) and Gérard. A very extreme "close finish!".


The second etappe appears to be be a repeat of the first, because Farina grabs the first place after the start and fights out a lead. This time however he has to drive faster, 143 km/h instead of the 140 km/h in the first etappe, because the three remaining frenchmen put in the same speed with which they ended the first etappe. The result of this forced high average speed is, that Sommer does not manage to lose the field, and is forced to join the melée.
But then the too fast start of the etappe wreaks revenge on the three hot-headed French drivers. In the third lap Gérard misses a turn and damages his Delage, while in the next lap the chances of Mazaud end in perfectly identical style.
Left over at his own, Monneret lowers his speed out of caution. But there was nothing he could do about the end result of the race. A peculiar point system was used, in which the winner of each etappe got 1 point, the second 4, the third 5 and all others 6.
After the second etappe (which was won by Farina with Sommer and Monneret behind him) the points had formed an end result which was impossible to change so that the third and last etappe was nothing but a formality.


Because of this, Sommer was given permission to overtake his team mate, and finish fist for a change. Thus the Grand Prix of Antwerp ended with the following result: 1st place Farina with Alfa Romeo with 6 points (1+1+4) 2nd Sommer, Alfa Romeo (4+4+1) 3rd Monneret (Delage) 16 points (6+5+5) while all the rest ended on a shared 4th place."

[Elwing]

Best we can do - I suspect the (tiny) fourth car here might be Clifford's Aston.



The Antwerp paddock area...

Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

Oh and gorgeous photos! But the landscape does not look familiar to me. Especially the last photo, I don't think there ever was an urban department store-like building on Linkeroever. Maybe this photo was taken downtown, but I can't pin point that building.

*edit* I identified the building. It is now the Hilton hotel, on Groenplaats square downtown. This was the Grand Bazaar department store back then; a conservatory was added to it later.

Edited by Elwing, 14 May 2012 - 13:15.

[Otto Grabe]

Elwing, many thanks for the quick translation.

"...Gérard misses a turn and damages his Delage, while in the next lap the chances of Mazaud end in perfectly identical style."
Though there is no mention of a tree involved I'm pretty much sure that Dougs No 12 is the crashed Delahaye of Mazaud in 1939.

Otto

[david venables]

Elwing, many thanks for the quick translation.

"...Gérard misses a turn and damages his Delage, while in the next lap the chances of Mazaud end in perfectly identical style."
Though there is no mention of a tree involved I'm pretty much sure that Dougs No 12 is the crashed Delahaye of Mazaud in 1939.

Otto

I believe the slightly dented Delahaye was the car which won at Le Mans in 1938 driven by Chaboud and Tremoulet. According to the listing of Competition 135s prepared by Andre Vaucourt it was 47190 reg no 8158RK9. Vaucourt says it didn't survive the accident.

[Otto Grabe]

I believe the slightly dented Delahaye was the car which won at Le Mans in 1938 driven by Chaboud and Tremoulet. According to the listing of Competition 135s prepared by Andre Vaucourt it was 47190 reg no 8158RK9. Vaucourt says it didn't survive the accident.

The same car (#6) Tremoulet drove to third at the Antwerp GP in 1938

[VDP]

About the Impéria, notice the "é". There is 2 possibilities, The normal derivated standard based on the Adler car from 1934/1936 models non streamliner or
the "sans soupapes 1900 cc" from Spa 24 hours. Impéria was one of theleading companies with those engines.

[Vitesse2]

About the Impéria, notice the "é". There is 2 possibilities, The normal derivated standard based on the Adler car from 1934/1936 models non streamliner or
the "sans soupapes 1900 cc" from Spa 24 hours. Impéria was one of theleading companies with those engines.

Well, I agree that either of those is a possible, Robert. But why would they enter either of those for three German drivers - von Guilleaume, Orssich and Sauerwein - all of whom were part of the works Adler team? You have to wonder whether there was some sort of plan to run rebadged Adler Rennlimousins in the same way that the works BMWs became Frazer Nash BMWs at Donington ...

[VDP]

The archive of the firm were throw away, from 1936 till 1939, infos are very scarce to get for this company, it was a miracle already that I could spoke to the son of Decerf ex chief mechanic at Impéria, In 1938, they build FWD derivaed Adler. The other one royalties were never paid. In 1934, works Adler drivers took part in the 10 hours, the car hadto be repainted, the night before the race.

[Elwing]

The archive of the firm were throw away, from 1936 till 1939, infos are very scarce to get for this company, it was a miracle already that I could spoke to the son of Decerf ex chief mechanic at Impéria, In 1938, they build FWD derivaed Adler. The other one royalties were never paid. In 1934, works Adler drivers took part in the 10 hours, the car hadto be repainted, the night before the race.

I have mailed the local newspaper, Gazet van Antwerpen, with the question of am I allowed to go trough their records. But these won't give me any information on chassis numbers, and if this is all you are interested in I will save myself the effort of going there. And they won't have any photographs either, because these were sent to the city archives (Felixpakhuis) earlier this year and and probably not yet available...

[VDP]

I was a few year, months ? ago in touch with Le soir archivist, pictures should exist from the Belgian side, mostly taken by Robyns,free lance photographer who sold his pictures a little bit everywhere, sic !

[Vitesse2]

I have mailed the local newspaper, Gazet van Antwerpen, with the question of am I allowed to go trough their records. But these won't give me any information on chassis numbers, and if this is all you are interested in I will save myself the effort of going there. And they won't have any photographs either, because these were sent to the city archives (Felixpakhuis) earlier this year and and probably not yet available...

You may find more than you expect! Local newspapers often really went to town (pardon the pun!) on races like this and sometimes provide better reports than the specialist magazines. The Belgrade paper Politika provided days of coverage before the Belgrade GP in 1939. I only wish I could read Cyrillic script Serbo-Croat ...

Do have a look at 1939 too, if you'd be so kind.

[Doug Nye]

Against the background of information emerging in this thread I am puzzled by the handful of Robert Fellowes negs that we have, taken at Antwerp pre-war. They are all captioned '1938' yet it appears at least one of them is from 1939... We believed that Fellowes only attended one Antwerp race meeting, not two. Can anyone definitively put me right?

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 14 May 2012 - 21:35.

[Vitesse2]

Well, I might be stating the bleedin' obvious, but the 1939 race was the same day as the Eifelrennen ...

[Doug Nye]

Precisely - and RF was there so the crashed Delahaye photo must have been taken in 1938, if that incident was indeed at Antwerp. Yet there's another claimant for No 12 at Antwerp 1938...the aforementioned Bugatti seen in the 'paddock' shot above...

DCN

[Vitesse2]

The number would fit for the Trémoulet/Chaboud Delahaye at Spa in 1938. DNF - accident.

It wouldn't be the first or last car to have been wrapped round a tree there

[Doug Nye]

The number would fit for the Trémoulet/Chaboud Delahaye at Spa in 1938. DNF - accident.

It wouldn't be the first or last car to have been wrapped round a tree there

Distinctly possible - extra headlamp, as for a 24-hour race, in the background that fenced meadow slopes steeply...entirely consistent Spa 24-Hour race features... Not consistent with daylight racing at Antwerp, at an estuarine venue flat as a pancake. Race run on the weekend between the French and Geman GPs, so entirely consistent with Fellowes covering it en route from Reims to the Nurburgring. Thank you...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 14 May 2012 - 22:24.

[john medley]

According to my information the ex Ecurie Bleu Delahaye registration number 8158RK9 with centre spotlight hole hit the tree Spa 1938

[Otto Grabe]

Finally Spa. I was just a little bit affected by Doug's remark "just found ... amongst our... Antwerp negs".

Last night I came across this:

http://www.forum-aut...t342119-595.htm
"Posté le 17-05-2006 à 06:39:43" and "Posté le 17-05-2006 à 10:59:40"

Otto

Edited by Otto Grabe, 15 May 2012 - 06:40.

[Doug Nye]

Thanks Otto. Another one to follow up. Note the difference in image quality...

What a disgusting thread, by the way - "le tartare est pret" etc. I think the attitude is attributed to "cultural differences".

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 15 May 2012 - 08:45.