42 replies to this topic

[sosidge]

When the F1 championship leader chooses not to set a time in Q3, you know that something has gone very badly wrong with the qualifying rules.

There has been a lot of debate about the Pirelli tyres - this is not a debate about the Pirelli tyres. This is a debate about the link between qualifying and the race.

My view is that the rule forcing drivers to use their Q3 tyres at the start of the race must be stopped. Immediately.

I also believe that the drivers should be given a "free" set of options for the qualifying session as well.

Then, Saturdays will go back to their original purpose of setting the grid for Sunday, and Sunday will be a pure race.

[korzeniow]

New set of tyres for Qe and problem solved

[zk12]

new set of tyres for q3!

Edited by zk12, 12 May 2012 - 14:14.

[SpaMaster]

Saturday's purpose is to set the grid. That's right, and only that. It does not say that grid should be set only by one defined way. I don't know why people want Saturday to be so important. In racing terms, there is no need for Saturday to be important. You have a set of resources, and you do the best compromise possible to get the best result possible on Sunday. I really don't see what is so amiss here. If one driver choose to remain at P10 starting position to win, and while the other goes for pole, that is perfect recipe for a great race. Saturdays have to be exciting because we want them to be? I mentioned elsewhere that qualy is only there because we cannot have all 24 cars starting off at the same time from the same line. If there is a virtual way where all cars can start from identical/equivalent grid position and slot in nicely as the gap opens up, then qualifying would not even be necessary. Qualifying does not need to be a show just for the sake of it.

[Skinnyguy]

One new option set for Q3, that then Pirelli takes back. So then they start on whatever tyres they want.

[jrg19]

I think the set you qualify on you give back for equivalent set, everyone will run in Q3.

[ForzaGTR]

The top 10 starting on tyres they qualified on has always been an odd rule. Why should drivers take a tyre penalty for out qualifying the slower cars? It could be said that 11th is a better position than 10th because you can choose new tyres. It's a silly attempt to try and make the field closer.

[Dunder]

Q3 qualifiers get an extra set of the tyre they set there fastest Q3 lap on as long as it is within x% of the pole time.

Wasn't something like this proposed, and rejected by the teams, last year?

[joshb]

just give those that get into Q2 an extra set and those that get into Q3 another extra set.
Stop penalising those drivers for actually going quick and getting further into qualifying

[sharo]

Remove the start on the same tyres rule.
Remove the obligatory 2 compound for the race. Let some use their softs for Q and try different strategy for the race.

[MeatPopsicle]

i like the current quali format, brings the midfield closer to the front runners in the race and makes for good racing

[TheWilliamzer]

We see this kind of discussions when there's a mixed grid, if it was a Redbull Macca Ferrari Lotus Merc top ten nobody will complain...

[SenorSjon]

60 minutes / 12 laps. 'nuff said

Warm up on sunday morning.
No dual compounds in race.
No parc ferme, that isn't needed between friday and saturday, so why on sunday?
Bring three compounds to te weekend. Teams have to choose which one to take. I read those were the GoodYear rules.

[WatchingF1since4yearsold]

3 sessions I think works okay, but let them have a free set of tyres for qualy, and fix the tyres as well.

[blackonyx4]

60 minutes / 12 laps. 'nuff said

Warm up on sunday morning.
No dual compounds in race.
No parc ferme, that isn't needed between friday and saturday, so why on sunday?
Bring three compounds to te weekend. Teams have to choose which one to take. I read those were the GoodYear rules.

Sorry, I don't want to pay over-expensive tickets to watch nothing for the first 30-40 minutes of the qualifying session.


Warm-up and no parc-ferme sounds good, but are Bill Gates and the other billionaires prepared to throw some billions to every team? Because that's how much it would cost if there's no limit.

[redbroccoli]

Two sets of supersoft tyres for each qualifying session.
Start the race on whatever the tyre they want, and 2 sets of primes and 3 sets of options reserved for the race.
No more both compound BS.

[SenorSjon]

Sorry, I don't want to pay over-expensive tickets to watch nothing for the first 30-40 minutes of the qualifying session.


Warm-up and no parc-ferme sounds good, but are Bill Gates and the other billionaires prepared to throw some billions to every team? Because that's how much it would cost if there's no limit.

Paying those tickets and no real Q3 is good? Stopping parc ferme would still mean no engine or gearbox changes. They can however use proper setups and we can see a rain race again. How can that cost a load of money?

[Ulysses777]

Sorry, I don't want to pay over-expensive tickets to watch nothing for the first 30-40 minutes of the qualifying session.

People like you are part of the problem, demanding entertainment from qualifying and stupidly paying too much for it.

[Dispenser89]

Agree with you OP. Extra set of tyres for qualy and eradicate that ridiculous 'start on the tyres you qualified on' rule for the top 10.

[iakhtar]

I'd love 60 minutes/12 laps and parc ferme rules relaxed, back to how it used to be with quali tyres also.

I really had no big problem with nothing happening on track for first 30mins, these Pirellis don't rubber the track in anyway so that shouldn't be a problem.

[DrProzac]

Prior to 2010 each driver had 14 tire sets for the whole weekend. Now he has 11 (5 option 6 prime IIRC). Give them 2 extra option and 1 extra prime set and we will see a lot less tire saving, especially in qualifying.

Remove the start on the same tyres rule.
Remove the obligatory 2 compound for the race. Let some use their softs for Q and try different strategy for the race.

I also second that. Especially the first sentence.

Edited by DrProzac, 12 May 2012 - 16:16.

[blackonyx4]

People like you are part of the problem, demanding entertainment from qualifying and stupidly paying too much for it.

You should thank me and other stupid people that actually buy the tickets and support this show (not the sport. F1 isn't and will never be sport) by doing so. I am sorry if it sounds ridiculous to you that I expect some good value for the money I paid. And I expect entertainment, yes. The worst thing I ever spend my money for was Belgian GP in 2002. It was so utterly boring, that I can't find anything to compare it with, yet you and hordes of armchair whiners long for those times to come back. No, thanks.

[pdac]

I voted change to something else. My something else is a single compound and a simple tyre allocation for the whole race weekend (FP, Qual and Race). Maybe an extra allocation for the race to ensure no-one runs out beforehand. But certainly get rid of prime and option and just have one compound.

[1001]

Stop drivers having to start the race on Q3 tyres. Maybe give extra tyres for Q3.

I like the three part format, but I've always disliked the starting on Q3 tyres rule as it often gives an advantage to 11th place over the places directly ahead. It was just as bad if not worse when drivers in Q3 had to qualify with race fuel. No fun when your driver beats his teammate in qualifying only for it be an disadvantage.

[Sevach]

Remove the start on the same tyres rule.
Remove the obligatory 2 compound for the race. Let some use their softs for Q and try different strategy for the race.

Yes please, set them totally free.

There's no reason (except perhaps economy) to give the teams so few sets for the race too.

[gm914]

Pirelli should bring SuperSofts just for qualifying.

Two sets- they can be used in any manner seen fit by the teams, but they must only be used for qualifying purposes.

Do you want to use one set for Q1+2, leaving the second set purely for a Q3 blast (providing you make it in), or do you use a set in Q1, a new set for Q2 and run used tyres in Q3?
The strategy is still there.

Pirelli takes the tyres away on Saturday evenings.
All drivers who qualify to the next round MUST post a timed lap.
Tyre choice to start the race on Sunday is purely up to the Teams.
Teams must still use Two Compounds throughout the race.

[Longtimefan]

Qualifying seems to have gone from a 'who is the fastest' competition to a 'pirelli lottery' competition.

[DrProzac]

We see this kind of discussions when there's a mixed grid, if it was a Redbull Macca Ferrari Lotus Merc top ten nobody will complain...

I said the same thing in 2010 as I did now. I also added that while the 11 sets were enough with Bridgestones, it's a bad idea to maintain such allocation with more fragile Pirelli tires.
It's good when we get different drivers fighting for top positions. As log as there is a fight instead of mass tire saving.

Some strategy in qualifying is welcome, but a strategy involving not going out at all should be very, very, very rare.

Edited by DrProzac, 12 May 2012 - 17:21.

[Paco]

We see this kind of discussions when there's a mixed grid, if it was a Redbull Macca Ferrari Lotus Merc top ten nobody will complain...

That insulting to the F1 community as whole.

Everyones fustration as a rule has nothing due to with which team is at the front etc. but the fact that racers are not racing but putting around soooo afraid of cooking their marshmellow tires that they cant race to their limits and are forced to be conservative on every lap & every corner. The penalty for even pushing your tires even for a few corners on a given lap could be disasterous.

That isn't F1.. that isn't racing..

[BigCHrome]

just give those that get into Q2 an extra set and those that get into Q3 another extra set.
Stop penalising those drivers for actually going quick and getting further into qualifying

You really can't do that. You never know who is going to make it and who will not. Obviously you can't fit the wheel in the tire and get it ready to race in the 4-5 min break between Q sessions.

I think the only thing they can do is qualifying tires. Bring 1 race tire and 1 qualifying tire. You start the weekend with 5 sets of Q tires and 7 sets of race tires, and can do whatever you want with them before Sunday, where you can only use the race tire.

[Paco]

60 minutes / 12 laps. 'nuff said

Warm up on sunday morning.
No dual compounds in race.
No parc ferme, that isn't needed between friday and saturday, so why on sunday?
Bring three compounds to te weekend. Teams have to choose which one to take. I read those were the GoodYear rules.

COMPETELY DISAGREE WITH:
No parc ferme, that isn't needed between friday and saturday, so why on sunday?
The madness of qualifying spec cars in late 90s had to end. Teams were having to develop 2 sets of cars: a qualifying variant which was almost completely taken apart and rebuilt for the race. For example: whisper thin brake pads and rotors to remove unsprung weight. Qualifying spec engine with ridicoulous short life engine components. Crazy light and weak suspension components that could only last a few laps etc.

That being said, if weather conditions change from wet qualifying to dry race or dry qualifying to wet race.. parc ferme should be opened for setup changes only.

Agree completely with:
60mins/12laps.
Warm up on sunday morning. There was no need for a Sunday warmup. Unless... unless... it was opened as a test session or young driver program to put some laps in etc. Teams are already there, why not use Sunday as a test day on a 3rd car - reintroduction of the spare (not one of the 2 race cars locked in parc ferme)


Disagree with:
No dual compounds in race.
Let the teams decide how they chose to use 2 compounds brought to the track: Use only 1, Use both etc. No rules regarding what they need to do with the tires provided to them.

Edited by Paco, 12 May 2012 - 17:42.

[SenorSjon]

COMPETELY DISAGREE WITH:
No parc ferme, that isn't needed between friday and saturday, so why on sunday?
The madness of qualifying spec cars in late 90s had to end. Teams were having to develop 2 sets of cars: a qualifying variant which was almost completely taken apart and rebuilt for the race. For example: whisper thin brake pads and rotors to remove unsprung weight. Qualifying spec engine with ridicoulous short life engine components. Crazy light and weak suspension components that could only last a few laps etc.

That being said, if weather conditions change from wet qualifying to dry race or dry qualifying to wet race.. parc ferme should be opened for setup changes only.

When you have one engine/gearbox per weekend rule, it has no use to switch engines. The other parts are less of a hassle to exchange. And the car still needs to have a certain weight.

Agree completely with:
60mins/12laps.
Warm up on sunday morning. There was no need for a Sunday warmup. Unless... unless... it was opened as a test session or young driver program to put some laps in etc. Teams are already there, why not use Sunday as a test day on a 3rd car - reintroduction of the spare (not one of the 2 race cars locked in parc ferme)

Warmup was used for the conditions and final tweaks on raceday, even MotoGP still has it.

Disagree with:
No dual compounds in race.
Let the teams decide how they chose to use 2 compounds brought to the track: Use only 1, Use both etc. No rules regarding what they need to do with the tires provided to them.

We mean the same. I meant that they don't HAVE to use both compounds.

Why not 7 sets of ties for Friday/Saturday and 5-6 for Sunday? Have 3 compounds to choose from (each 2 sets or so). You prevent USA2005 probs when there are no suitable tires by having a full spread at the track.

[TheWilliamzer]

That insulting to the F1 community as whole.

Everyones fustration as a rule has nothing due to with which team is at the front etc. but the fact that racers are not racing but putting around soooo afraid of cooking their marshmellow tires that they cant race to their limits and are forced to be conservative on every lap & every corner. The penalty for even pushing your tires even for a few corners on a given lap could be disasterous.

That isn't F1.. that isn't racing..

That's what Pirelli caused. Some drivers complained but nobody listens, and with this tires you can't have it all 100% because you have to save for the race and strategy, and also think about the margins of the changeable conditions.

Unless there's a change in Pirelli's and F1's politics,I'm happy with the current format. Nobody can get everything right 100%.

[Paco]

That's what Pirelli caused. Some drivers complained but nobody listens, and with this tires you can't have it all 100% because you have to save for the race and strategy, and also think about the margins of the changeable conditions.

Unless there's a change in Pirelli's and F1's politics,I'm happy with the current format. Nobody can get everything right 100%.

This situation has nothing to do with Pirelli.. but the FIA and F1 instance on having weekly constructed tires as mandated. Pirelli is simply supplying what has been asked of them by the F1 governing bodies.

Formula 1 needs to decide clearly what it wants to be moving forward in the next agreement.

The direction has been more and more towards a spec series which is a shame. I've already gotten to the point of missing several races a year just from lack of interest and that was unheardof for me in late 90s and early 2000s. With each passing year, i keep tuning out more and more.

F1 today isn't what it once stood for. IMO it started 1st with grooved tires from a technical point and also when they adopted single lap qualifying.. then long life engines and gearboxes pretty much sealed the deal.

[sharo]

This situation has nothing to do with Pirelli.. but the FIA and F1 instance on having weekly constructed tires as mandated. Pirelli is simply supplying what has been asked of them by the F1 governing bodies.

While you are right in principle, I highly doubt the FIA has specified a 3-5 degrees centigrade track tolerance, lack of grip even on the first lap, littering the track surface and sudden drop off the cliff.

[RealRacing]

This thread does not have anything to do with Pirelli tyres? One reason many drivers don't care to go for a lap in Q3 is because they want to save tyres for the race. Why do they want to save tyres? 1. Because they have a limited quantity. Culprit: FIA, and 2. Because the tyres provided to them are not performing well. Culprit: FIA and, arguably, Pirelli.

Another reason is because they want to have the (obvious) choice of which tyre to start with. Culprit: FIA with parc ferme rules.

Notice that even if FIA granted to provide more sets of tyres or even special qualifying tyres, the race tyres would still be bad and the races would still be delta-races. What would be the use of FIA giving teams unlimited sets of any compound if the tyres degrade so quickly as to make a 100% pushing stint not even possible?

Qualifiyng used to be a race within the race. Sometimes drivers would go out just to improve their own time, increase the difference with pursuers and prove a point or psychologically play with their rivals (see Senna). Many times just watching one driver doing an amazing lap all by himself was better than the whole race (plenty of on and off board camera proof of this on youtube).

First and foremost, tyres need to improve. These drivers have to be allowed to push to the max at least for the shortest possible, but still practical, stint.

Then:

-Tyre allotment needs to increase.
-Parc Ferme rule needs to be scrapped.
-Two compound rule needs to go.
-Drivers should be allowed to choose from x number of compounds on a given weekend and use any of them.

[Szoelloe]

The ideal solution would be bringing back qualifying tyres. 4 lap life span, extreme grip, 12 sets for everyone for a qualifying session. Parc fermé rules need to change accordingly. For the race, they can still keep the mandatory 2 compounds, without the design flaw they came up with this year.

[RealRacing]

The ideal solution would be bringing back qualifying tyres. 4 lap life span, extreme grip, 12 sets for everyone for a qualifying session. Parc fermé rules need to change accordingly. For the race, they can still keep the mandatory 2 compounds, without the design flaw they came up with this year.

Mandatory use of 2 compounds makes no sense.

[Szoelloe]

Mandatory use of 2 compounds makes no sense.

I agree with that, my mistake. As long as the grip induced lap-time difference between the two compounds present the teams with room for creative strategies, excluding one-stoppers.

[RealRacing]

I agree with that, my mistake. As long as the grip induced lap-time difference between the two compounds present the teams with room for creative strategies, excluding one-stoppers.

Why do you exclude one stoppers? Nothing should be excluded, including zero stops...

[mursuka80]

Do you guys know why rules will not be changed? Its too easy and logical, so of course FIA wont do it.

[black magic]

but its all about the tyres.

make them so on/off, make set ups such a gamble and this was inevitable.

it might be making a topsy turvy season but the means is artificial and contrived.

[bourbon]

There should never be a time when a team considers 'not running' during a qualifying session a good strategy. Unfortunately that is the case at present from time to time. It doesn't matter whether one argues it is for the 'show' or for purposes of good old 'pure racing' - if the cars aren't out on track, there is no show and there is no pure racing either. There is only "nothing".

Qually tyres would likely solve the problem.