4010 replies to this topic

[jrg19]

pretty much because of Monza and Vettel. The Red Bull got all the updates first, it was the better car.

The 2008 Toro Rosso was nothing than a lower midfield team. Without Vettel even worse than the Honda.

Both Toro Rossos actually retired in pretty much the first 5-6 races costing a lot of points.

[rhukkas]

OK - but people throw Newey name around as if he injects downforce in a chassis , by waving his hands.
No , the car was efficient because of the EBD (and only in Qualy where they could afford it ) , it was Seb , the team and other factors who eked out 11 wins in the races out of it.

Conclusion - In 2008 , borrowed Newey chassis for the Torro Rosso with no updates , no EBD and poorer pitwall and pitstop teams and combined with less skilled drivers (coz of less exp) , 2008 Monza could be considered as a backmarker winning ...

But we know the forum wisdom - whenever Vettel wins , its the car and the magic chassis - So its all good !

Wasn't that the same race where Bourdais qualified forth, and had comparable pace with Vettel during the race?

[gillesthegenius]

But the Toro Rosso of 2008 is more comparable with the Sauber of today which got a podium the other day a bit of luck goes a long way.

Vettels drive was obviously amazing in 2008 but Vettel fan boys make out he was driving a tractor.

I dont think anyone makes it out as a tractor. Besides Perez obviously drove well. But he froze when it mattered. Something that champions dont do, and something that Vettel didnt do in Monza 2008. Perez's drive was more comparable to Fisichella's drive in Spa 2009, while Vettel's drive was more comparable to Senna's drive in Estoril 85.

[goldenboy]

WEB

Horner: "Seb lets have a talk......"

pffft. What's Horner going to say to vettel. Except beg him to stay at Red Bull

[Zava]

Wasn't that the same race where Bourdais qualified forth, and had comparable pace with Vettel during the race?

no, that was the race where Bourdais qualified 1 second off Vettel, then got stuck on the grid at the formation lap, started last, and finished second to last.

[gillesthegenius]

Gotta say to this thread.

For the past two years it was all Vettel because we can't separate driver from car performance and also the notion that Webber had the same car and didn't deliver.

And now it's Newey who produced a dog and suddenly we can separate car and driver and we don't have to look at Webber who is 2-0 in Qualifying,because the car is a dog.

And RB8 is 5th fastest car? Well using Vettel's loyalists logic from last year,it's all Vettel so the car is a rocket,just Vettel can't drive it without EBD and a nicely mapped engine. Look at Webber right?

Funny how now we can suddenly tell it's the car which is a dog!

2 races - in which Seb split the Mclaren's in one and was in contention for the podium in the other untill he got taken out while his team mate hasnt even threatened to get on the podium in either of the races - and you have so much to say. Ever wondered why your boy hasnt been able to repeat his (MA) amazing consistancy of 2007 ever since then? Perhaps the term 'TC' might give you the answer to it.

[fieraku]

2 races - in which Seb split the Mclaren's in one and was in contention for the podium in the other untill he got taken out while his team mate hasnt even threatened to get on the podium in either of the races - and you have so much to say. Ever wondered why your boy hasnt been able to repeat his (MA) amazing consistancy of 2007 ever since then? Perhaps the term 'TC' might give you the answer to it.

2 races in which he has looked nothing like the dominant driver he was presumed to be,his one lap speed has migrated as well it seems,and now his fans are blaming the car and Newey,the same ones that last year said the car was equal to McLaren because we can not categorically assess the cars. But now that Vettel ain't dominating, we can.
As for TC just watch the start of Malaysia,10 second lead on your boy in 4 laps,or the start of Hungary 2011 also in the wet,no signs of missing anything,but keep at it you might get lucky and someone will believe you.

Italy's La Repubblica newspaper said 2012 has been "a nightmare" for Vettel so far, as the once-dominant driver "has become just one of the other drivers".

Edited by fieraku, 27 March 2012 - 13:35.

[sosidge]

2 races in which he has looked nothing like the dominant driver he was presumed to be,his one lap speed has migrated as well it seems,and now his fans are blaming the car and Newey,the same ones that last year said the car was equal to McLaren because we can not categorically assess the cars. But now that Vettel ain't dominating, we can.
As for TC just watch the start of Malaysia,10 second lead on your boy in 4 laps,or the start of Hungary 2011 also in the wet,no signs of missing anything,but keep at it you might get lucky and someone will believe you.

Shouldn't this be in the Hamilton thread?

[gillesthegenius]

but keep at it you might get lucky and someone will believe you.

Well That sounds like a good advice for you and your 'Vettel cant drive without EBD' theory.;)

[fieraku]

Shouldn't this be in the Hamilton thread?

Yeah,uhmmm, the problem is that he's never dominated and is already rubbish according to many,so no,here it's fine.

[gillesthegenius]

Shouldn't this be in the Hamilton thread?

I guess it should.

[Zava]

Yeah,uhmmm, the problem is that he's never dominated and is already rubbish according to many,so no,here it's fine.

but you didn't write "the dominant driver he was", you wrote "the dominant driver he was presumed to be", and that pretty much applies to TDG, especially with you adding "but he was never dominant"

[fieraku]

but you didn't write "the dominant driver he was", you wrote "the dominant driver he was presumed to be", and that pretty much applies to TDG, especially with you adding "but he was never dominant"

When you're compared to Senna,Clark and called the greatest of your generation without any legit evidence to show that it was a rational comparison,it can only be a presumption.

[joshb]

I do find it amusing that again, the media have jumped on Sebs back and are calling iut a nightmare season and that actually, he is just like every other driver
So that explains why there's only 3 men out of 24 with 2+ titles, only 2 men with more wins, only 1 man with more poles (and at a lower strike rate) and all this in 80-odd starts at 24 years.

Sebs 'nightmare season' is
A great recovery drive after a difficult qualy to beat a faster car diven by a very talented driver to 2nd place
A reasonable recovery drive to sit 4th and with a shout of 3rd in a very difficult race before a silly tangle with a backmarker
1 mistake on a hot lap in qualy 1 good lap on the less grippy tyres and being 2-0 down to a very capable qualifier.

Its like if a top footy side won the first game then lost a tricky away game 2nd game, then would we write off their title chances? No

Remember they did the same after Nurburgring and Hungary last year, and were duly made to eat Humble Pie.

[Watkins74]

When you're compared to Senna,Clark and called the greatest of your generation without any legit evidence to show that it was a rational comparison,it can only be a presumption.

Fair enough. That is why I laughed my ass off when they said it about Hamilton.

[LiJu914]

When you're compared to Senna,Clark and called the greatest of your generation without any legit evidence to show that it was a rational comparison,it can only be a presumption.

That coming from a guy who claimed no one - quote: "not even Senna" - could match Hamilton on bridgestone-tyres.

[fieraku]

Remember they did the same after Nurburgring and Hungary last year, and were duly made to eat Humble Pie.

You mean races where RB still got the pole position and it was just a 2 team fight? This year is nothing like last year,nothing.There's only 5-6 tenths from P1 to P10 this year compared to the 2.5 seconds in Nurbugring.

None comparable.

[fieraku]

That coming from a guy who claimed no one - quote: "not even Senna" - could match Hamilton on bridgestone-tyres.

Vettel fans will do that to you.

[fieraku]

Fair enough. That is why I laughed my ass off when they said it about Hamilton.

I've stated here that 'prime' Schumi would eat these guys for breakfast,lets not even go any further.

[LiJu914]

Vettel fans will do that to you.

My deepest condolences.

[gillesthegenius]

That coming from a guy who claimed no one - quote: "not even Senna" - could match Hamilton on bridgestone-tyres.

[dau]

I'm not blaming anyone.

It is just like when you use a crosswalk without looking for cars, and then a bus comes and hits you.
Maybe you were entiteld to cross the road and the bus driver is 100% at fault. But still - you are in hospital, thinking 'why the hell didn't I look for cars?'

This must be one of the most brilliant comparisons i ever read around here.

[repete]

You mean races where RB still got the pole position and it was just a 2 team fight? This year is nothing like last year,nothing.There's only 5-6 tenths from P1 to P10 this year compared to the 2.5 seconds in Nurbugring.

None comparable.

Do you just make up stats? it was 1.5s between p1 lewis and p10 perez in malaysia and 1.5s from lewis to p9 hulk in aus (p10 no time).

Also the mclaren has locked out the front row, the mighty rb7 didnt even pull off that feat in the first 2 races.

Yes the field as a whole is closer, but at the front, Mclaren do have a gap to the field in qual pace. Lewis' pole time in Malaysia was definately not representative of the cars real pace. Everyone was criticizing RBR and Vettel when they would barely miss an apex and get pole, while Vodafone/Hamilton can lock up and run wide in his first run and get pole, and its "car is not much faster"

note: i am just re-using your guys logic from last year in how you determined the rb7 was the most dominant car ever.

Realistically the only conclusion anyone can draw from last race is, Ferrari have fixed up there pitstop woes. They are blinding fast now.

[goingthedistance]

The clash led to Vettel saying the following after the race: "Like on normal roads, you have some idiots driving around. It seems there is also one driving here," he told the BBC.

Force India's Hulkenberg disagrees, and believes it was Vettel at fault on Sunday.

"I heard about whatever happened and I also saw it on TV," he said. "From what I saw, it was not Narain's fault. So, I don't really understand why he [Vettel] said all of that.

"I think Vettel was just emotional at that point of time. He lost out on points, it was frustrating for him and his team. At the end of the day, he is just human and sometimes you get emotional."

http://thef1times.co...s/display/05685

Interesting coming from Nico, who has been quite supportive of Seb in the past. If an F1 driver can interpret the incident that way maybe the uber-Seb fans will pause for thought?

Edited by goingthedistance, 27 March 2012 - 16:27.

[Zava]

When you're compared to Senna,Clark and called the greatest of your generation without any legit evidence to show that it was a rational comparison,it can only be a presumption.

you misunderstood me. I just pointed out that even Hamilton never dominated, you wrote "the dominant driver he was presumed to be" and not "the dominant driver he was", so it could be applied to Hamilton as well.

[puxanando]

The clash led to Vettel saying the following after the race: "Like on normal roads, you have some idiots driving around. It seems there is also one driving here," he told the BBC.

Force India's Hulkenberg disagrees, and believes it was Vettel at fault on Sunday.

"I heard about whatever happened and I also saw it on TV," he said. "From what I saw, it was not Narain's fault. So, I don't really understand why he [Vettel] said all of that.

"I think Vettel was just emotional at that point of time. He lost out on points, it was frustrating for him and his team. At the end of the day, he is just human and sometimes you get emotional."

http://thef1times.co...s/display/05685

Interesting coming from Nico, who has been quite supportive of Seb in the past. If an F1 driver can interpret the incident that way maybe the uber-Seb fans will pause for thought?

Interesting how it was seen by another driver

[Sakae]

Realistically the only conclusion anyone can draw from last race is, Ferrari have fixed up there pitstop woes. They are blinding fast now.

FA did print purples, and one would have to now make them front runners, but problem is, tires that propelled him to P1 last weekend might next race leave him very much behind. Bookies must be going crazy. Seb is facing biggest challenge yet in his life with F1, IMO. Nothing is stable, and for next little while all bets are off.

[KateLM]

I'm not usually one to jump to Seb's defence, but whilst I still think the incident was mostly his fault it's still worth keeping in mind that the Force India drivers are in India right now, so it's most likely a member of the Indian press who asked Hulkenberg that...

[apoka]

It took less than 2 months to fill up 50+ pages in this thread. Hamilton level has been reached.

[syph0nJZ05]

Seriously, you need to think before you make posts about how dominant the RB cars were... McLaren have 2 front-row lockouts from two this year, RB only managed 6 from 19 in 2011, when Vettel completely dominated the championship. Vettel won from his first two poles that year by the way, something McLaren's polesitter hasn't managed.

It's funny that you're trying to water down how dominate the RB7 was last year by actually posting a statistic that they locked out the front row in a 1/3 of all races . If you genuinely think that the RB7 wasn't an extremely dominant car then you are mad. It was the most dominant car since 2004. But maybe you're one of those guys that thinks Schumi was the reason the championship was wrapped up so quickly that year ?

[TheBunk]

FA did print purples, and one would have to now make them front runners, but problem is, tires that propelled him to P1 last weekend might next race leave him very much behind. Bookies must be going crazy. Seb is facing biggest challenge yet in his life with F1, IMO. Nothing is stable, and for next little while all bets are off.

The kid is doin fine imo. Well on course to win his 3rd consecutive world title.

[gillesthegenius]

Do you just make up stats? it was 1.5s between p1 lewis and p10 perez in malaysia and 1.5s from lewis to p9 hulk in aus (p10 no time).

Also the mclaren has locked out the front row, the mighty rb7 didnt even pull off that feat in the first 2 races.

Yes the field as a whole is closer, but at the front, Mclaren do have a gap to the field in qual pace. Lewis' pole time in Malaysia was definately not representative of the cars real pace. Everyone was criticizing RBR and Vettel when they would barely miss an apex and get pole, while Vodafone/Hamilton can lock up and run wide in his first run and get pole, and its "car is not much faster"

note: i am just re-using your guys logic from last year in how you determined the rb7 was the most dominant car ever.

Realistically the only conclusion anyone can draw from last race is, Ferrari have fixed up there pitstop woes. They are blinding fast now.

Dont you know about the forum logic?

''If Vettel wins, the car has be to the fastest. And if Vettel dominates, it has to be because his car is one of the most dominant ever. How can one explain otherwise? ... when only Lewis Carl Hamilton is the real deal!''

[goingthedistance]

I'm not usually one to jump to Seb's defence, but whilst I still think the incident was mostly his fault it's still worth keeping in mind that the Force India drivers are in India right now, so it's most likely a member of the Indian press who asked Hulkenberg that...

So Nico blamed Seb because he's in India? Seems a bit cynical.

I think it shows that it's not a clear cut incident, and anyone trying to argue it was 100% one or the other's fault is being a bit silly. Coulthard after the race seemed to believe it was mostly SV's doing too.

[fieraku]

Do you just make up stats? it was 1.5s between p1 lewis and p10 perez in malaysia and 1.5s from lewis to p9 hulk in aus (p10 no time).

Also the mclaren has locked out the front row, the mighty rb7 didnt even pull off that feat in the first 2 races.

Yes the field as a whole is closer, but at the front, Mclaren do have a gap to the field in qual pace. Lewis' pole time in Malaysia was definately not representative of the cars real pace. Everyone was criticizing RBR and Vettel when they would barely miss an apex and get pole, while Vodafone/Hamilton can lock up and run wide in his first run and get pole, and its "car is not much faster"

note: i am just re-using your guys logic from last year in how you determined the rb7 was the most dominant car ever.

Realistically the only conclusion anyone can draw from last race is, Ferrari have fixed up there pitstop woes. They are blinding fast now.

In OZ it was 7 tenths to P7 and in Mal 4 tenths to P8,numbers which Vettel by himself was enjoying beginning of last year,so the field is indeed the closest it has been in a while,you can paint which way you like but the RB7 was opening its DRS in forbidden places last year that's how much DF it had on the competition,so the 27 doesn't even come close.
And as to race pace the 27 is no better than Lotus,unlike last year when Vettel pushed the magic button,got a 7-8 second lead and cruised to the finish.Engine mapping is banned and EBD is gone and the advantage is gone with it.

All predicted here in the past,btw,so it comes as no surprise.

[LiJu914]

It's funny that you're trying to water down how dominate the RB7 was last year by actually posting a statistic that they locked out the front row in a 1/3 of all races

Well McLaren did that also in 2007. Does that make the car dominant?


Ps. Not saying that the RB7 wasn´t the best car - it was.

[Sakae]

So, Seb is in trouble with his boss. I guess in the environment we have, I am not much surprised, but, if it is true and Seb knew what were his orders, yet he has disobeyed those, than he should face consequences. I am very fond of him, and will defend him 7/24, but not in such case. One wonders if this started with Webber and Turkey 2010 when allegedly he too ignored what he was told by his control. If they let it slide then, Seb will remind them now. Still, he should have listen, and park it. I am sorry Seb, but that's how cookie crumbles sometimes, and its woodshed for once. I am with management on that one.

Edited by Sakae, 27 March 2012 - 17:12.

[fieraku]

Dont you know about the forum logic?

''If Vettel wins, the car has be to the fastest. And if Vettel dominates, it has to be because his car is one of the most dominant ever. How can one explain otherwise? ... when only Lewis Carl Hamilton is the real deal!''

Are you kidding?Vettel loyalists were pushing "he won in an equal car" BS here,none stop.Some of us suggested that his car might have something to do with it, only to be replied with rotfl smileys,and endlessly reminded how he won in a STR so it wasn't the car,and how he was 6-7-8 tenths faster than Webber.

And now it's the car!
Well if he is that much faster than Webber since he was used as the benchmark last year than we can conclude the RB8 is the fastest car and Vettel is underperforming.
Being that much faster he should be on pole.

And that's the logic that was debated last year here.

[zeph]

And that's the logic that was debated last year here.

QFT.

[LiJu914]

QFT.

Yeah, except it isn´t.

The only guy i can remember constantly exaggerating in favor of Vettel in here was Alarcon.

Most users didn´t deny that RB7 was the best car over whole season (even though not invincible in every single race)

Edited by LiJu914, 27 March 2012 - 17:53.

[gillesthegenius]

Are you kidding?Vettel loyalists were pushing "he won in an equal car" BS here,none stop.Some of us suggested that his car might have something to do with it, only to be replied with rotfl smileys,and endlessly reminded how he won in a STR so it wasn't the car,and how he was 6-7-8 tenths faster than Webber.

And now it's the car!
Well if he is that much faster than Webber since he was used as the benchmark last year than we can conclude the RB8 is the fastest car and Vettel is underperforming.
Being that much faster he should be on pole.

And that's the logic that was debated last year here.

Oh come on Fieraku. How can you make up so much of false stuff? Even Alarcon hasnt denied that the RB7 was the fastest car last year. What was argued though was that the MP4-27 was a match for it in quite a few races last year and that the RB7 wasnt 'one of the most dominant cars in the history of f1' like you and some others were claiming.

I can understand that you have been left frustrated by Seb's dominance over the past year or so. But why dont you try and enjoy your boy's endeavours now that he has got his hands on a car that has the potential to help him to, god willing, do what Seb did last year.

But wait a minute...
Your boy isnt giving you much enjoyment, is he?

Edited by gillesthegenius, 27 March 2012 - 18:00.

[H2H]

Do you just make up stats? it was 1.5s between p1 lewis and p10 perez in malaysia and 1.5s from lewis to p9 hulk in aus (p10 no time).

Also the mclaren has locked out the front row, the mighty rb7 didnt even pull off that feat in the first 2 races.

Yes the field as a whole is closer, but at the front, Mclaren do have a gap to the field in qual pace. Lewis' pole time in Malaysia was definately not representative of the cars real pace. Everyone was criticizing RBR and Vettel when they would barely miss an apex and get pole, while Vodafone/Hamilton can lock up and run wide in his first run and get pole, and its "car is not much faster"

note: i am just re-using your guys logic from last year in how you determined the rb7 was the most dominant car ever.

Realistically the only conclusion anyone can draw from last race is, Ferrari have fixed up there pitstop woes. They are blinding fast now.

Sadly your logic is lost in this case on fieraku as he has his specific agenda. Still it shows the hypocrisis of him and some here on this forum, ever ready to twist the narrative to fit their bias.

McLaren is indeed ahead of the pack despite their drivers making mistakes during their fast laps and of course Martin was not happy after failing to get the 1-2 at each of those races.

I also wonder why so many come here from other threads to state obvious rubbish. Is it insecurity? Childish 'revenge' for having suffered the dominance of another driver? Envy against a driver who had more success then their loved one?

Anyway I love the fact that Mark has been able to more then challenge Seb in Q3 and in the race, but I do think that in the long run Seb will overcome and adapt thanks to his great talent, work ethic and intelligence. His ability to compete for the WDC of course depends on the ability of RBR to close the gap to the McLaren and relies to some degree on the mistakes those guys in front make. So far they have not been able to get the most out of their so far dominant car, unlike Seb in 2011.

Edited by H2H, 27 March 2012 - 18:34.

[puxanando]

Red Bull will sit with Sebastian Vettel following reports the German deliberately ignored the team's race instructions in Malaysia.

WEB

What do you think? Vettel had done right?

[robefc]

WEB

What do you think? Vettel had done right?

If they were basically trying to cheat then I take my hat off to him

[Sakae]

WEB

What do you think? Vettel had done right?

Depends what really happened, but on face of it - No! [Post 2090]

Edited by Sakae, 27 March 2012 - 19:12.

[robefc]

Sadly your logic is lost in this case on fieraku as he has his specific agenda. Still it shows the hypocrisis of him and some here on this forum, ever ready to twist the narrative to fit their bias.

McLaren is indeed ahead of the pack despite their drivers making mistakes during their fast laps and of course Martin was not happy after failing to get the 1-2 at each of those races.

I also wonder why so many come here from other threads to state obvious rubbish. Is it insecurity? Childish 'revenge' for having suffered the dominance of another driver? Envy against a driver who had more success then their loved one?

Anyway I love the fact that Mark has been able to more then challenge Seb in Q3 and in the race, but I do think that in the long run Seb will overcome and adapt thanks to his great talent, work ethic and intelligence. His ability to compete for the WDC of course depends on the ability of RBR to close the gap to the McLaren and relies to some degree on the mistakes those guys in front make. So far they have not been able to get the most out of their so far dominant car, unlike Seb in 2011.

To be frank you're twisting the narrative as much as anyone else.

You're ignoring lewis's clutch and SC issues at australia and the complete mayhem of malaysia and the fact that 2 cars were clearly quicker in malaysia for whatever reason.

Regardless, whilst I feel a certain level of satisfaction at vettel being brouhgt back into the fold and being challenged by webber, it's more in a 'look he's just mortal' kind of way. I suspect other fans had a similar attitude to the lewis hype in 2009.

I find the eagerness of people to jump on him pretty distasteful and the bitterness is pretty transparent. It's also ironic that many of the people jumping on him are guilty of bigging their driver up far more than most vettel fans do.

[FlashMaster]

WEB

What do you think? Vettel had done right?

He's a RACER and he wants to see the chequered flag. Hats off Seb

[syph0nJZ05]

Well McLaren did that also in 2007. Does that make the car dominant?


Ps. Not saying that the RB7 wasn´t the best car - it was.

I didn't say it didn't, I simply said it is a strange stat to pick to try and suggest the car wasn't dominant.

[puxanando]

If they were basically trying to cheat then I take my hat off to him

IF you are right!

[Afterburner]

Just saw the race a few minutes ago but unfortunately never saw what happened to Seb. Looked up footage of the incident on YouTube (here) and have to say it's almost entirely Karthikeyan's fault, mistake or not. I'm sure it's been discussed to death here already, but he tucked behind Seb too early and unfortunately Seb paid the price for it. Not his fault, but hey, that's racing. There's still 18 rounds to go and even though the extra points would've been very helpful, you play the hand you're dealt.

I find the eagerness of people to jump on him pretty distasteful and the bitterness is pretty transparent. It's also ironic that many of the people jumping on him are guilty of bigging their driver up far more than most Vettel fans do.

So incredibly true that I think I'm going to make this my signature.

[Alarcon]

In OZ it was 7 tenths to P7 and in Mal 4 tenths to P8,numbers which Vettel by himself was enjoying beginning of last year,so the field is indeed the closest it has been in a while,you can paint which way you like but the RB7 was opening its DRS in forbidden places last year that's how much DF it had on the competition,so the 27 doesn't even come close.
And as to race pace the 27 is no better than Lotus,unlike last year when Vettel pushed the magic button,got a 7-8 second lead and cruised to the finish.Engine mapping is banned and EBD is gone and the advantage is gone with it.

All predicted here in the past,btw,so it comes as no surprise.

Button also pushed the magic "button" in Melbourne and go away in the first laps from Hamilton...

You still can´t accept the other drivers success. Vettel in 2010 and 2011. Sorry for you, now it´s your time to enjoy.