4002 replies to this topic

[Gareth]

It's not that sudden at all. I wouldn't just defend this behavior to then pop out the rule and start questioning it when I deem it appropriate, completely changing my viewpoint on the situation halfway through that 4 year period that you speak of.

It's interesting you bring up the Alonso vs Kubica thread. That's pretty much where I discovered that, sadly, the rule is that you can hang people out to dry (thanks to the various conversations had at that time). You will note that the guy I was defending there was the "arch enemy" !

As I've consistently said since 2010 and over this incident: I wish that was not the case. I wish the rule was interpreted so that you have to give the same room to the car on the outside as to one on the inside (ie halfway alongside = give a car's width). I think F1 would be much the better for that kind of change. I have no idea why anyone would be resistent to making that change.

But the standard that we have got in F1 right now is abundantly clear from what we've seen on track and what we see decided by the stewards: you can legitimately hang someone on the outside out to dry. Hamilton's racing on Sunday was absolutely right and proper in the standards of F1 today - he did nothing wrong. I would love for those standards to change so that this type of driving becomes unacceptable. But he can only be expected (as any other F1 driver) to drive to the standards of the day - this is F1, you can't give up any edge.

[Lights]

It's interesting you bring up the Alonso vs Kubica thread. That's pretty much where I discovered that, sadly, the rule is that you can hang people out to dry (thanks to the various conversations had at that time). You will note that the guy I was defending there was the "arch enemy" !

As I've consistently said since 2010 and over this incident: I wish that was not the case. I wish the rule was interpreted so that you have to give the same room to the car on the outside as to one on the inside (ie halfway alongside = give a car's width). I think F1 would be much the better for that kind of change. I have no idea why anyone would be resistent to making that change.

But the standard that we have got in F1 right now is abundantly clear from what we've seen on track and what we see decided by the stewards: you can legitimately hang someone on the outside out to dry. Hamilton's racing on Sunday was absolutely right and proper in the standards of F1 today - he did nothing wrong. I would love for those standards to change so that this type of driving becomes unacceptable. But he can only be expected (as any other F1 driver) to drive to the standards of the day - this is F1, you can't give up any edge.

Well there aren't many instances where this actually brought up a discussion. Only in the case of a penalty or an accident with top drivers, like Spa'08, Silverstone'10 and now, it's been discussed in depth. It happens more often than that but if it merely results in a change of position it's quickly forgotten. The problem with it is the definition. If this is allowed, why can't drivers do it on straights? Why can't they just push other drivers into the wall? Where does it say this only applies on the exit of corners? It doesn't. Movements concerned, there's no difference to what Hamilton, Maldonado, Kubica, Kimi etc. did. If this was so normal, than all F1 drivers must be stupid for not doing this all the time. Why didn't Lewis do it to Grosjean? He could just go wide on purpose and remove any chance for Grosjean to overtake.

On the same note, why would any driver ever try sticking to the outside line, if it takes all your right of driving on tarmac away from you? If I would really have to accept this as 'normal', it directly changes my view on most battles I've seen in F1. It would make anyone defending Hamilton for Montreal 2011 wrong by default, because Lewis was on the outside before a right-hander and Jenson was on the 'racing line' for that corner, so Jenson would have every right to drive him into the wall. It's fine to hang someone out to dry right? Who cares if there's a wall, that's not described anywhere. This by itself would make applying the rule like this completely pathetic. This is getting quite off-topic however.

[Rocket73]

Well its all good when nobody gets in the way - its just when they do disaster strikes.

[hammibal]

oh
my
god...

Its true in the races were both drivers finished the score was 7-7, i believe the score this year is 4-2 in Lewis's favour also bear in mind that Lewis never got lapped by Jenson so there is a bigger gap between the two this year than last year

[hammibal]

Scorecard:

Lewis 18 - 6 Jenson

[LH08WDC]

Some of the Lewis fans in here need to chill. Many of you seem to have forgotten how bad 2011 was and how some reacted to it. Now you guys are acting even worse than some of the Lewis detractors. There's a long way to go and anything can still happen. We know Jenson is a great driver and that he's having problems at the moment, but he can still bounce back.

[speng]

Some of the Lewis fans in here need to chill. Many of you seem to have forgotten how bad 2011 was and how some reacted to it. Now you guys are acting even worse than some of the Lewis detractors. There's a long way to go and anything can still happen. We know Jenson is a great driver and that he's having problems at the moment, but he can still bounce back.

You should include some of Button's fans as well.
I would not say that Button is a great driver, I consider Alonso and Hamilton to be great drivers.

[P123]

If this is allowed, why can't drivers do it on straights?

They do, and they get away with it too. Crowding another driver beyond the line of the track and sudden late direction changes is worse than weaving (despite the hysterical reaction that goes with that due to the visual impact) and have actually resulted in accidents, but the stewards seem to turn a blind eye to it unless a wall is in close proximity. But any overtaking manouvre takes the cooperation of both parties to be successful.

[PARAZAR]

Wow...it's posts like these that make me want to stay away from this thread. I find no point in trying to defend Jenson, it's like running into a brick wall. I just hope he bounces back soon so we can get this "he has been found out" talk out of the way. How people can come up with things like this after an F1 driver has had a 12 year career is beyond me. I'm sure people in F1 aren't daft, if he was a bad driver, he wouldn't be in F1 this long. Just to continue in the same spirit, he who laughs last, laughs best.

Edited by PARAZAR, 28 June 2012 - 18:54.

[P123]

Very reminiscent to 2000-2008 hence we are seeing the Button we remember for most of his career. It's not daft. Soon we will be praising button for getting 5ths and 4ths.

You mean when he beat Trulli, Villeneuve, Barichello, was the closest challenger to the dominant Ferraris in '04, etc To write him off is daft.

[MightyMoose]

Way too many posts discussing the poster and not the post, also a lot of "generalizing" - Button fans this, Hamilton fans that etc etc.

Time to behave ladies & gentlemen, the forum rules exist for a reason, please abide by them.

Thank you.

[Dalton007]

Wow...it's posts like these that make me want to stay away from this thread. I find no point in trying to defend Jenson, it's like running into a brick wall. I just hope he bounces back soon so we can get this "he has been found out" talk out of the way. How people can come up with things like this after an F1 driver has had a 12 year career is beyond me. I'm sure people in F1 aren't daft, if he was a bad driver, he wouldn't be in F1 this long. Just to continue in the same spirit, he who laughs last, laughs best.

I know. It's sad. Jenson has been the mire in his career -- he always bounced back. He'll be back strong - he's a great driver and a decent bloke. I don't care if Lewis is faster, Jenson has done well against him in the past; he'll be kicking butt again, no doubt about it.

[jjcale]

I know. It's sad. Jenson has been the mire in his career -- he always bounced back. He'll be back strong - he's a great driver and a decent bloke. I don't care if Lewis is faster, Jenson has done well against him in the past; he'll be kicking butt again, no doubt about it.

[dave12]

I know. It's sad. Jenson has been the mire in his career -- he always bounced back. He'll be back strong - he's a great driver and a decent bloke. I don't care if Lewis is faster, Jenson has done well against him in the past; he'll be kicking butt again, no doubt about it.

[Lazy]

Lewis never lost his form last year.

So Jenson kicked the arse of an on form Lewis?

[PNSD]

I know. It's sad. Jenson has been the mire in his career -- he always bounced back. He'll be back strong - he's a great driver and a decent bloke. I don't care if Lewis is faster, Jenson has done well against him in the past; he'll be kicking butt again, no doubt about it.

After last year, it obviously comes as a relief for some Lewis fans that Jenson is struggling.

Go back to pre-season and how many Lewis fans MOANED about the 2012 regulations favouring Button (aswell as apparently the 2011 :S). What you are seeing is relief on their part because they suspected the god-like image Lewis was given (rather than earned) by his fans was under threat, as it was in 2011.

There is no doubt Lewis has started 2012 strongly, he has raced how you expect a champion of his ability to race but I dont see anything to suggest he has stepped up another level as Alonso appeared to have. Once Button gets back in the groove he will be challenging, and helping Lewis.

The suggestions that Button is finished are completely unfounded, and very desperate.

[ZooL]

After last year, it obviously comes as a relief for some Lewis fans that Jenson is struggling.

Go back to pre-season and how many Lewis fans MOANED about the 2012 regulations favouring Button (aswell as apparently the 2011 :S). What you are seeing is relief on their part because they suspected the god-like image Lewis was given (rather than earned) by his fans was under threat, as it was in 2011.

There is no doubt Lewis has started 2012 strongly, he has raced how you expect a champion of his ability to race but I dont see anything to suggest he has stepped up another level as Alonso appeared to have. Once Button gets back in the groove he will be challenging, and helping Lewis.

The suggestions that Button is finished are completely unfounded, and very desperate.

You'll probably disagree but Button's WDC challenge this year IS finished. That is the only thing that matters.

[PNSD]

You'll probably disagree but Button's WDC challenge this year IS finished. That is the only thing that matters.

I dont disagree with you, but Alonso came back in 2010 from a huge lead. Then again that's Alonso.

How many Lewis fans last year said it was all about winning GP's and that the WDC did not matter to them? (once they realized Vettel was champ?!). But as I say, I agree. To overcome Webber, Kimi, Grosjean and Lewis is perhaps do able. To overcome Alonso is his current form is not do able.

Smitten - Want to tell me precisely what you mean from that comment? Ill tell you what I meant ....

Lewis is in 2007 was as good as he is now. Likewise, in 2010 at the start Lewis was sublime. You want to tell me how he is any better this year?! Lewis reached his peak mid way in 2007. Since then in terms of raw speed and ability he has not improved. He was a world champion beater then, and he is now.

Edited by MightyMoose, 29 June 2012 - 18:29.
Removed: Im sorry you disagree with me, but is that perhaps because I have not got my head up his arse? So please tell me what you mean by your post :).

[speng]

After last year, it obviously comes as a relief for some Lewis fans that Jenson is struggling.

Go back to pre-season and how many Lewis fans MOANED about the 2012 regulations favouring Button (aswell as apparently the 2011 :S). What you are seeing is relief on their part because they suspected the god-like image Lewis was given (rather than earned) by his fans was under threat, as it was in 2011.

There is no doubt Lewis has started 2012 strongly, he has raced how you expect a champion of his ability to race but I dont see anything to suggest he has stepped up another level as Alonso appeared to have. Once Button gets back in the groove he will be challenging, and helping Lewis.

The suggestions that Button is finished are completely unfounded, and very desperate.

not me as I know Button will not beat a focused Hamilton over a season

Edited by speng, 29 June 2012 - 18:11.

[ZooL]

I dont disagree with you, but Alonso came back in 2010 from a huge lead. Then again that's Alonso.

How many Lewis fans last year said it was all about winning GP's and that the WDC did not matter to them? (once they realized Vettel was champ?!). But as I say, I agree. To overcome Webber, Kimi, Grosjean and Lewis is perhaps do able. To overcome Alonso is his current form is not do able.

Smitten - Want to tell me precisely what you mean from that comment? Ill tell you what I meant ....

Lewis is in 2007 was as good as he is now. Likewise, in 2010 at the start Lewis was sublime. You want to tell me how he is any better this year?! Lewis reached his peak mid way in 2007. Since then in terms of raw speed and ability he has not improved. He was a world champion beater then, and he is now.

Surely you are bound to improve with 5 years F1 experience compared to race 9 of your rookie year...to say otherwise is to deny Charles Darwin and evolution. You should write your underlying theory to a science journal ;)

[smitten]

Surely you are bound to improve with 5 years F1 experience compared to race 9 of your rookie year...to say otherwise is to deny Charles Darwin and evolution. You should write your underlying theory to a science journal ;)

I'm not sure it works like that But the maturity and composure that Hamilton has shown in the face of adversity leads me to suggest he is currently the most complete driver on the grid.

[Rocket73]

You'll probably disagree but Button's WDC challenge this year IS finished. That is the only thing that matters.

to the desperados...of which there seem to be many....

[MrPodium]

Completely irrelevant as Jenson didn't do either. He didn't try to lessen the blame for himself and always took responsibility since these problems started. But please, give me another page on the differences between nouns and verbs, I find it fascinating.

I'd very much like for someone to compare the quotes from both McLaren drivers where they used either singular or collective references to describe their respective performances.

[PNSD]

Surely you are bound to improve with 5 years F1 experience compared to race 9 of your rookie year...to say otherwise is to deny Charles Darwin and evolution. You should write your underlying theory to a science journal ;)

2011 would suggest otherwise. Likewise the end of 2010, some elements of 2009 (awesome season for lewis despite result!) and 2008 suggest Lewis has improved little since 2007.

He got his Mclaren seat because he was quick from the word go. He wasn't just quick, he was only 1-2 tenths slower than the reigning two time champ at the time! Lewis was a MEGA rookie. No other rookie will ever achieve what he has. Jacques and Lewis were special in that respect. Lewis found his form quickly and was leading the title for most of the season!

In 2008 he certainly made a few mistakes he should not have, and even on occasion looked rather... so-so. He limped over the line to take his title after his rival dominated the race.

In 2009 he got every bit of the car's performance and used it! He used the Mclarens low speed grip to amazing effect and arguably out performed drivers in better cars! Still he made errors you would not expect from a driver of his ability. Monaco is the big one for me, and of course Monza. But Monaco was a killer mistake and I have never before, or even since been so disappointed in him. It was a race where he had the chance to show the world just how mega he could be. Instead he stuffed it in the wall and we were left to wonder.

2010. Epic start and mid season. He again got the max out of the car 100% of the time. Then once again in classic Lewis style, he lost it when it mattered the most.

2011. What do you want me to say about this season? It was perhaps his worst in F1.

2012. Similar to 2010 IMO. Getting 100% out of the car 100% of the time... so far.

Let me put it this way. I do not believe it is possible for Lewis to improve in terms of pace or ability. I believe he has NOT improved his race craft, or ability to read a race or even read a season. I think he is rash with decisions and sometimes shows to be a little too eager. He needs to learn when to stop, and when he has lost.

Ultimately this is going to come down to you, proving to me that he has improved. Based on your idea, Rubens should have been the best F1 driver ever. DC should have got better rather than turn to sh*t. And Jenson should be blitzing Lewis.

What seems to hurt Lewis is that we have Vettel who seems to learn from his mistakes and be a better driver because of it. With Vettel, Lewis can not rely on his talent or pure speed because Vettel is as quick, if not quicker. When was the last time Vettel was involved in a tangle with another driver? Or even when he made a mistake in qualifying or a race? I can't remember so it would be great if you could tell me?

[PNSD]

I'm not sure it works like that But the maturity and composure that Hamilton has shown in the face of adversity leads me to suggest he is currently the most complete driver on the grid.

Face of adversity?

I don't follow, care to elaborate? Maybe add to the discussion why you believe he is more complete than say, the obvious favourite, Alonso?

Edited by Mandzipop, 29 June 2012 - 20:44.
And Mods, perhaps you should move the last few posts to the Lewis thread? Perhaps my fault it got taken off course a little! Please use the report function.

[smitten]

Face of adversity?

I don't follow, care to elaborate? Maybe add to the discussion why you believe he is more complete than say, the obvious favourite, Alonso?

Unlike Ferrari, McLaren don't have a stated policy of favouring one driver over the other and so developments are not tailored to Lewis in particular.

The adversity is fairly obvious if you have followed the season; with obvious exception Hamilton has consistently delivered better results in both quali and the race than Button yet has suffered nearly all the pit-stop issues, underfuellings, and 50% of the being rammed by other drivers yet has kept he composure, kept his cool and council, and turned up the following weekend and delivered it all over again. Tell me he's not complete.

[speng]

2011 would suggest otherwise. Likewise the end of 2010, some elements of 2009 (awesome season for lewis despite result!) and 2008 suggest Lewis has improved little since 2007.

He got his Mclaren seat because he was quick from the word go. He wasn't just quick, he was only 1-2 tenths slower than the reigning two time champ at the time! Lewis was a MEGA rookie. No other rookie will ever achieve what he has. Jacques and Lewis were special in that respect. Lewis found his form quickly and was leading the title for most of the season!

In 2008 he certainly made a few mistakes he should not have, and even on occasion looked rather... so-so. He limped over the line to take his title after his rival dominated the race.

In 2009 he got every bit of the car's performance and used it! He used the Mclarens low speed grip to amazing effect and arguably out performed drivers in better cars! Still he made errors you would not expect from a driver of his ability. Monaco is the big one for me, and of course Monza. But Monaco was a killer mistake and I have never before, or even since been so disappointed in him. It was a race where he had the chance to show the world just how mega he could be. Instead he stuffed it in the wall and we were left to wonder.

2010. Epic start and mid season. He again got the max out of the car 100% of the time. Then once again in classic Lewis style, he lost it when it mattered the most.

2011. What do you want me to say about this season? It was perhaps his worst in F1.

2012. Similar to 2010 IMO. Getting 100% out of the car 100% of the time... so far.

Let me put it this way. I do not believe it is possible for Lewis to improve in terms of pace or ability. I believe he has NOT improved his race craft, or ability to read a race or even read a season. I think he is rash with decisions and sometimes shows to be a little too eager. He needs to learn when to stop, and when he has lost.

Ultimately this is going to come down to you, proving to me that he has improved. Based on your idea, Rubens should have been the best F1 driver ever. DC should have got better rather than turn to sh*t. And Jenson should be blitzing Lewis.

What seems to hurt Lewis is that we have Vettel who seems to learn from his mistakes and be a better driver because of it. With Vettel, Lewis can not rely on his talent or pure speed because Vettel is as quick, if not quicker. When was the last time Vettel was involved in a tangle with another driver? Or even when he made a mistake in qualifying or a race? I can't remember so it would be great if you could tell me?

So it Hamilton vs Vettel now, I guess that is because Button does not match up well right now.

[MortenF1]

When was the last time Vettel was involved in a tangle with another driver? Or even when he made a mistake in qualifying or a race? I can't remember so it would be great if you could tell me?

Clubbered Karthikeyan, Malaysia '12.

Edited by race addicted, 29 June 2012 - 20:55.

[robefc]

Surely you are bound to improve with 5 years F1 experience compared to race 9 of your rookie year...to say otherwise is to deny Charles Darwin and evolution. You should write your underlying theory to a science journal ;)

Off topic, please read up on evolution ;)

On topic, I read an article recently about how much Lewis had improved over his career but typically can't remember where or who. I agree it's difficult to see, which is partly down to his brilliance from the start and partly down to still showing weaknesses today. Picture is somewhat obscured by the way F1 has evolved since 2007 (i.e. no ferrari/macca domination) and the cluster**** that was 2011.

I disagree about the second half of 2010 (with PSND). I do think vettel is showing ver well this year, he made more mistakes in 2010 than Lewis, 2011 obviously supreme but life is easier in that car, this year he's done very well driving n the pack, albeit struggled a bit in some qualis.

[robefc]

Clubbered Karthikeyan, China '12.

Got clubbered by more like

[MortenF1]

Got clubbered by more like

I see what you mean, and "clobbered" is the wrong expression, but he wanted to get his anger and frustration across with turning in sharply right infront. (Like Vergne vs Kovalainen in Valencia)

Edited by race addicted, 29 June 2012 - 20:59.

[gricey1981]

2011 would suggest otherwise. Likewise the end of 2010, some elements of 2009 (awesome season for lewis despite result!) and 2008 suggest Lewis has improved little since 2007.

He got his Mclaren seat because he was quick from the word go. He wasn't just quick, he was only 1-2 tenths slower than the reigning two time champ at the time! Lewis was a MEGA rookie. No other rookie will ever achieve what he has. Jacques and Lewis were special in that respect. Lewis found his form quickly and was leading the title for most of the season!

In 2008 he certainly made a few mistakes he should not have, and even on occasion looked rather... so-so. He limped over the line to take his title after his rival dominated the race.

In 2009 he got every bit of the car's performance and used it! He used the Mclarens low speed grip to amazing effect and arguably out performed drivers in better cars! Still he made errors you would not expect from a driver of his ability. Monaco is the big one for me, and of course Monza. But Monaco was a killer mistake and I have never before, or even since been so disappointed in him. It was a race where he had the chance to show the world just how mega he could be. Instead he stuffed it in the wall and we were left to wonder.

2010. Epic start and mid season. He again got the max out of the car 100% of the time. Then once again in classic Lewis style, he lost it when it mattered the most.

2011. What do you want me to say about this season? It was perhaps his worst in F1.

2012. Similar to 2010 IMO. Getting 100% out of the car 100% of the time... so far.

Let me put it this way. I do not believe it is possible for Lewis to improve in terms of pace or ability. I believe he has NOT improved his race craft, or ability to read a race or even read a season. I think he is rash with decisions and sometimes shows to be a little too eager. He needs to learn when to stop, and when he has lost.

Ultimately this is going to come down to you, proving to me that he has improved. Based on your idea, Rubens should have been the best F1 driver ever. DC should have got better rather than turn to sh*t. And Jenson should be blitzing Lewis.

What seems to hurt Lewis is that we have Vettel who seems to learn from his mistakes and be a better driver because of it. With Vettel, Lewis can not rely on his talent or pure speed because Vettel is as quick, if not quicker. When was the last time Vettel was involved in a tangle with another driver? Or even when he made a mistake in qualifying or a race? I can't remember so it would be great if you could tell me?

Vettel made a couple of mistakes in qually this year. One of the reasons why Webber was beating him there this year.

Vettel to me is similar to hamilton - when thingas are not going well he throws his toys out. The whole "cucumber" incident underlines that.

Its al so easy when your miles in front like last year though.

Age will mellow them both.

[jjcale]

...
What seems to hurt Lewis is that we have Vettel who seems to learn from his mistakes and be a better driver because of it. With Vettel, Lewis can not rely on his talent or pure speed because Vettel is as quick, if not quicker. When was the last time Vettel was involved in a tangle with another driver? Or even when he made a mistake in qualifying or a race? I can't remember so it would be great if you could tell me?

Deprive SV of the benefit of Newey's brilliance and put him in with the Macca Brains Trust aka the beta version experimental AI programe that makes LH and JB's strategies and the Keystone Cops pit crew and we will see if he is so cool calm and collected?

/OT

[smitten]

Deprive SV of the benefit of Newey's brilliance and put him in with the Macca Brains Trust aka the beta version experimental AI programe that makes LH and JB's strategies and the Keystone Cops pit crew and we will see if he is so cool calm and collected?

/OT

Actually, I don't think this is as OT as all that. Both McLaren drivers have maintained a fairly positive and united appearance (at least outwardly) when faced with these travails. Button has sounded a bit despondent at times, and Hamilton a bit peeved, but both have toed the party line fairly well.

[undersquare]

So it Hamilton vs Vettel now, I guess that is because Button does not match up well right now.

Lol

@PNSD there were several races in 2007 where Alonso drove away from Lewis in the same car, and that would NOT happen now. They all get faster for several years as Ron Dennis has said and everybody knows. It's a simple function or input consistency, that's why the average wdc age is about 30.

Up to now it's only been a (very) few crazed Alonso fans trying to deny this obvious truth...

[PNSD]

So it Hamilton vs Vettel now, I guess that is because Button does not match up well right now.

The point of discussion at that point was with regards to whether Lewis had improved as a driver. Jenson does not come into it.

Is there a point to you replying to my post that I am unaware of or... ?

[PNSD]

Vettel made a couple of mistakes in qually this year. One of the reasons why Webber was beating him there this year.

Vettel to me is similar to hamilton - when thingas are not going well he throws his toys out. The whole "cucumber" incident underlines that.

Its al so easy when your miles in front like last year though.

Age will mellow them both.

I would not go as far as saying Lewis through's his toys out. Perhaps not to the extent Vettel does at least.

Vettel though for me has learned from many of his mistakes. Despite what people say, wheel to wheel, the guy is amazing! I don't recall any major mistakes. My point was Monaco 2009 like as for Lewis.

How often has Vettel cost himself major points, or opportunities ?

[PNSD]

Deprive SV of the benefit of Newey's brilliance and put him in with the Macca Brains Trust aka the beta version experimental AI programe that makes LH and JB's strategies and the Keystone Cops pit crew and we will see if he is so cool calm and collected?

/OT

What has Newey got to do with it?

Comparing Vettel and Webber, even in 2010 there is a huge difference.

I don't want to make this a lewis v's SV thread, but the Vettel that collided with Kubica in 2009 is long gone. As is the Vettel that caused the Turkey 2010 accident.

Meanwhile I am not certain Lewis will not be involved in accidents that could have been avoided if he acted differently?

[PNSD]

Unlike Ferrari, McLaren don't have a stated policy of favouring one driver over the other and so developments are not tailored to Lewis in particular.

The adversity is fairly obvious if you have followed the season; with obvious exception Hamilton has consistently delivered better results in both quali and the race than Button yet has suffered nearly all the pit-stop issues, underfuellings, and 50% of the being rammed by other drivers yet has kept he composure, kept his cool and council, and turned up the following weekend and delivered it all over again. Tell me he's not complete.

....

Look. Let's get a few things straight.. car's are not developed for drivers. If you are referring to the past, let's say Schumacher and Ferrari I will state a point. Bridgestone designed tyres for Schumachers requested, base on how the car felt.

Tyres were tailored made for some drivers given how the car drove. Car's are not tailored for drivers. That is PURE AND SIMPLE FACT. I have talked with several of my former lecturers involved in the design process of an F1 car (Former Williams engineers) and they have told me, over and over again that is simply not the case with control tyres.

I do not deny Lewis has had badluck, but once again my post was in referral to the idea that Lewis has got better year on year. Despite his errors, I would say not and have seen nothing to say he has. He has performed amazingly well in qualifying, and sure has had some bad luck in pit stops but overall in the same way Lewis has impressed me more than any other driver on Saturday.. Alonso and Vettel have impressed me more than Lewis on Sunday.

Is he complete? Perhaps. Is he Alonso complete? No. For one, I do not believe Alonso would have ever had the incident with Pastor. Secondly, reverse the roles and had Lewis been in the Ferrari, I do not believe he would be leading the title chase.

Lewis is an amazing driver, and it would be hard to differentiate between himself and Vettel in particular. But Lewis is not yet the complete package Alonso is. How anyone can deny that after his seaosns so far is amazing. The guy lost to Button in 2011! He had outside issues yes, but did not Alonso divorce from his wife? Yet took the 3rd quickest car to 3rd in the title.

Lewis is amazing. I have NEVER denied that. He is just not great, nor is he as complete as Alonso.... YET.

[Rocket73]

the thing that gets me is that JB has only been off form for a few races in season where the majority of f1 peeps agree that it's really hard to understand the tyres and we have had 7 different winners including maldonado...

it's nowhere near as bad as lewis' wilderness years (ok 18 months but still) and yet so many are jumping at the chance to say 'i told you he was crap! especially compared to lewis!'

doesn't add up..

[robefc]

the thing that gets me is that JB has only been off form for a few races in season where the majority of f1 peeps agree that it's really hard to understand the tyres and we have had 7 different winners including maldonado...

it's nowhere near as bad as lewis' wilderness years (ok 18 months but still) and yet so many are jumping at the chance to say 'i told you he was crap! especially compared to lewis!'Y

doesn't add up..

There really does seem to be a myth building over Lewis in the second half of 2010...and the first part of 2011 for that matter.

[ZooL]

2011 would suggest otherwise. Likewise the end of 2010, some elements of 2009 (awesome season for lewis despite result!) and 2008 suggest Lewis has improved little since 2007.

He got his Mclaren seat because he was quick from the word go. He wasn't just quick, he was only 1-2 tenths slower than the reigning two time champ at the time! Lewis was a MEGA rookie. No other rookie will ever achieve what he has. Jacques and Lewis were special in that respect. Lewis found his form quickly and was leading the title for most of the season!

In 2008 he certainly made a few mistakes he should not have, and even on occasion looked rather... so-so. He limped over the line to take his title after his rival dominated the race.

In 2009 he got every bit of the car's performance and used it! He used the Mclarens low speed grip to amazing effect and arguably out performed drivers in better cars! Still he made errors you would not expect from a driver of his ability. Monaco is the big one for me, and of course Monza. But Monaco was a killer mistake and I have never before, or even since been so disappointed in him. It was a race where he had the chance to show the world just how mega he could be. Instead he stuffed it in the wall and we were left to wonder.

2010. Epic start and mid season. He again got the max out of the car 100% of the time. Then once again in classic Lewis style, he lost it when it mattered the most.

2011. What do you want me to say about this season? It was perhaps his worst in F1.

2012. Similar to 2010 IMO. Getting 100% out of the car 100% of the time... so far.

Let me put it this way. I do not believe it is possible for Lewis to improve in terms of pace or ability. I believe he has NOT improved his race craft, or ability to read a race or even read a season. I think he is rash with decisions and sometimes shows to be a little too eager. He needs to learn when to stop, and when he has lost.

Ultimately this is going to come down to you, proving to me that he has improved. Based on your idea, Rubens should have been the best F1 driver ever. DC should have got better rather than turn to sh*t. And Jenson should be blitzing Lewis.

What seems to hurt Lewis is that we have Vettel who seems to learn from his mistakes and be a better driver because of it. With Vettel, Lewis can not rely on his talent or pure speed because Vettel is as quick, if not quicker. When was the last time Vettel was involved in a tangle with another driver? Or even when he made a mistake in qualifying or a race? I can't remember so it would be great if you could tell me?

You can't get do a season getting 100% out of the car 100% of the time. Take 2010 example, he had to rag that car to the edge, thats why in middle of the season he made to 2 misjudgements 2 races in a row, Italy and Singapore - he had to be opportunistic as thats what get him there in the first place.
I don't think you go on improving forever in sport as you age as sportsmen/humans have their peak. For F1 I'd say its around age 31, after this you won't gain anymore from your experiance.
As for Vettel, its been too easy for him when he has such a rocketship of a car. You can't separate his abilities from that of his car. With a dominant car you can easily give the perception of absolutely thrashing the field.

One thing that has never helped Hamilton in this regard is that even for a half a season he's never been fortunate enough to take it easy and rackup wins the easy way, and that goes a long way to ones perception of a driver.
Vettel is quick but how quick? is it the car? It's 4-4 this year in quali between him and webber. And in 2010 it needed the #1 driver love and support from Dr Marko, Horner and Newey to hug him and take off parts off webbers car and put it on his. How much is that support worth? That arrangement was everything for Schumacher and Alonso. Again Hamilton hasn't had this luxury, he has had to graft it the hard way with 2 world championship teamates. Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel never had world championship teamates to beat in the same car.

Edited by ZooL, 29 June 2012 - 23:38.

[velgajski1]

Is he complete? Perhaps. Is he Alonso complete? No. For one, I do not believe Alonso would have ever had the incident with Pastor. Secondly, reverse the roles and had Lewis been in the Ferrari, I do not believe he would be leading the title chase.

Lewis is an amazing driver, and it would be hard to differentiate between himself and Vettel in particular. But Lewis is not yet the complete package Alonso is. How anyone can deny that after his seaosns so far is amazing. The guy lost to Button in 2011! He had outside issues yes, but did not Alonso divorce from his wife? Yet took the 3rd quickest car to 3rd in the title.

Lewis is amazing. I have NEVER denied that. He is just not great, nor is he as complete as Alonso.... YET.

The 'Alonso complete' theme is a bit of a riddle to me. I didn't mind it occuring frequently in 2007/2008. after his 2 titles and great season at McLaren (he did finish just 1 point behind Kimi). But its 2012. now, for full 5 seasons Alonso didn't win the title. 1 of those seasons in McLaren, 2 in Renault, 2 in Ferrari, hardly a backmarker teams.

Congrats to Alonso for being rational and calm, he's got epic racecraft and can do well even with cars that are difficult to drive. But there is one thing that irks me about Alonso, and this is his overall pace. On a good day, he is as fast as anyone on grid, but I have a feeling that sometimes he is just not able to extract performance from a car. Fact that he had few mediocre teammates with #1 status masks this, but imo - Lewis in 2007. exposed this on a number of occasions. Imagine some of the races like Canada 2007. with a pairing of Alonso/Kovalainen or Alonso/Button or Alonso/Massa. I bet that Alonso would be faster than any of those except maybe, and that's a big maybe - Button. And then, everyone would say - McLaren has to improve, they were only 4th-5th best car on grid, Alonso fans would say - McLaren is a backmarker car and Alonso drove brilliantly but it wasn't enough. And it would be hard to disagree.

This is not something that I claim to be 100% true, we'll see - Alonso looks braced for his best season in F1 so far, maybe he can prove otherwise. I can live with the fact that you don't have WDC winning car every season, but when it occurs for 5-6 seasons in arguably strongest teams on grid - then I'm beginning to wonder if its all about cars.

Many people have in recent days compared Alonso to Senna or Schumacher. Senna and Schumacher (not counting his veteran career) never went for a 5 full seasons in F1 without a title won. If Alonso doesn't win 2012. season, it will be 6 full seasons without the title. Senna had 4 seasons without title won, and this was only in beginning of his career. Schumacher had 4 between his Benneton and Ferrari titles, but difference between Alonso and Schumacher is that Schumacher always looked like he has a fast car, and was very unlucky not to win 1997. and 1999. title, and even in 1998. he was very, very close.

Edited by velgajski1, 30 June 2012 - 05:33.

[Rocket73]

There really does seem to be a myth building over Lewis in the second half of 2010...and the first part of 2011 for that matter.

OK as i recall his bad patch started more or less when he got busted in australia for his burn outs on a public highway...and definitely in the second half of 2010 he was having pointless contacts that put him out of the race...silly mistakes etc..

monza with massa and singapore with webber for example.

also it was around the start of the 2010 season that he stopped having his dad as manager and that is widely regarded as a significant factor in his down turn...

JB on the other hand has been struggling with extremely mysterious tyres and set up issues for a few races and for a lot of people on this thread all that is irrelevant and this is
proof of JB 'being shown up'.

[Juggles]

OK as i recall his bad patch started more or less when he got busted in australia for his burn outs on a public highway...and definitely in the second half of 2010 he was having pointless contacts that put him out of the race...silly mistakes etc..

monza with massa and singapore with webber for example.

also it was around the start of the 2010 season that he stopped having his dad as manager and that is widely regarded as a significant factor in his down turn...

JB on the other hand has been struggling with extremely mysterious tyres and set up issues for a few races and for a lot of people on this thread all that is irrelevant and this is
proof of JB 'being shown up'.

This really is complete nonsense.

I regard 2010 as Hamilton's best season in F1. He was brilliant in a car that, particularly by the end of the season, was third best and he only made one mistake (the contact with Massa in Italy).

I don't like the way you've worded "Monza with Massa and Singapore with Webber for example," implying there are more examples when there obviously aren't (otherwise you would presumably have brought them up).

Maybe you can explain in more detail how his 2010 results indicate a "downturn" in form?

Hamilton's so called "wilderness years" (so called by you, no one else) lasted from Monaco 2011 until the end of the season, but that relatively dark spell by Hamilton's standards included two race wins and some very impressive performances.

Hamilton's problem last season was that he got into far too many incidents, and was therefore inconsistent. Button has been consistent since Bahrain; consistently miles off the pace. That is a five race streak that may or may not end in the near future. Of course people will talk about it given Button's brilliant performances last season.

[velgajski1]

OK as i recall his bad patch started more or less when he got busted in australia for his burn outs on a public highway...and definitely in the second half of 2010 he was having pointless contacts that put him out of the race...silly mistakes etc..

monza with massa and singapore with webber for example.

also it was around the start of the 2010 season that he stopped having his dad as manager and that is widely regarded as a significant factor in his down turn...

JB on the other hand has been struggling with extremely mysterious tyres and set up issues for a few races and for a lot of people on this thread all that is irrelevant and this is
proof of JB 'being shown up'.

These are only two 'pointless' contacts he made, especially with Webber it was more of Webber's fault. If you want to look at 2010. real mistakes by Lewis 2 real ones I remember are with Massa, and going out in Spa where he was lucky to escape without any damage or lost positions.

Edited by velgajski1, 30 June 2012 - 07:58.

[SCEPurple]

This really is complete nonsense.

I regard 2010 as Hamilton's best season in F1. He was brilliant in a car that, particularly by the end of the season, was third best and he only made one mistake (the contact with Massa in Italy).

I don't like the way you've worded "Monza with Massa and Singapore with Webber for example," implying there are more examples when there obviously aren't (otherwise you would presumably have brought them up).

Maybe you can explain in more detail how his 2010 results indicate a "downturn" in form?

Hamilton's so called "wilderness years" (so called by you, no one else) lasted from Monaco 2011 until the end of the season, but that relatively dark spell by Hamilton's standards included two race wins and some very impressive performances.

Hamilton's problem last season was that he got into far too many incidents, and was therefore inconsistent. Button has been consistent since Bahrain; consistently miles off the pace. That is a five race streak that may or may not end in the near future. Of course people will talk about it given Button's brilliant performances last season.

Well put

[PretentiousBread]

This really is complete nonsense.

I regard 2010 as Hamilton's best season in F1. He was brilliant in a car that, particularly by the end of the season, was third best and he only made one mistake (the contact with Massa in Italy).

I don't like the way you've worded "Monza with Massa and Singapore with Webber for example," implying there are more examples when there obviously aren't (otherwise you would presumably have brought them up).

Maybe you can explain in more detail how his 2010 results indicate a "downturn" in form?

Hamilton's so called "wilderness years" (so called by you, no one else) lasted from Monaco 2011 until the end of the season, but that relatively dark spell by Hamilton's standards included two race wins and some very impressive performances.

Hamilton's problem last season was that he got into far too many incidents, and was therefore inconsistent. Button has been consistent since Bahrain; consistently miles off the pace. That is a five race streak that may or may not end in the near future. Of course people will talk about it given Button's brilliant performances last season.

I think I've agreed with just about every post you've ever written. Are you my doppleganger?

[Rocket73]

Come on Lewis was a full 14 points behind the 2010 WDC!!

Ok i have been checking the results a bit more thoroughly and it would seem me memory is quite badly distorted, probably due to media hype over hammy and possibly me wanting it to be...i think also something to do with when he sacked his dad...

i suppose that's how myths are created ...

Edited by Rocket73, 30 June 2012 - 10:07.

[Lazy]

I regard 2010 as Hamilton's best season in F1. He was brilliant in a car that, particularly by the end of the season, was third best and he only made one mistake (the contact with Massa in Italy).


Hamilton's so called "wilderness years" (so called by you, no one else) lasted from Monaco 2011 until the end of the season, but that relatively dark spell by Hamilton's standards included two race wins and some very impressive performances.

That's an interesting view considering that that year he only managed to beat JB, new to the team, not very comfortable fitting in the car, and having troubles getting tyres up to temperature, generally a difficult year for him, by only 26 points.

2011 he was comfortably beaten by Button by 43 points. Admittedly he had some problems but, as you say, not that big a deal, still had decent pace but just made a couple of mistakes.

2012 the 1st three races ended with Button looking the stronger candidate for the WDC, only when JB started to have serious technical issues that Lewis started to beat him. It's beginning to look like he can only beat Jenson when Jenson is having problems.

It will be interesting to see how things will turn out if and when JB sorts whatever issue is troubling him.