85 replies to this topic

[Tuboscocca]

Anyone interested in seeing 23 GTOs ??This year is the 50 th GTO- anniversary in France. On Friday 6 July 2012 they come to Le Mans (between 13-17 h).
In between are two laps of the full circuit....

http://www.lemansclassic.com/

Can't await it

Michael

[kayemod]

Anyone interested in seeing 23 GTOs ??This year is the 50 th GTO- anniversary in France. On Friday 6 July 2012 they come to Le Mans (between 13-17 h).
In between are two laps of the full circuit....

http://www.lemansclassic.com/

Can't await it

Michael

The site describes the 23 Ferrari GTOs as "mythique" or en Anglais, "mythical". Does that mean that they won't really be there at all, just in the onlookers' imaginations?

Perhaps they should have labelled them "iconic", or even "vintage", almost everything else more than a few years old seems to be these days.

[D-Type]

I think it is simply a classic case of the meaning in different languages moving away from the original. In English I would probably say "... the legendary 250 GTO ..."

[David McKinney]

Yes, I've mentioned this before. Both French and German, as far as I can tell, use use one word where in English we have "myth" and "legend" with slightly different meanings.

[kayemod]

I don't want to sidetrack this thread with irrelevancies, but in this case the French mythique means exactly the same as mythical in English, and they have a perfectly good word for legendary, légendaire, which again has exactly the same meaning as our version. I suspect it was just an unfortunate choice of word in both languages, but on the plus side, at least he didn't write iconic or vintage.

Edited to correct a typo, now this post more or less makes sense.

Edited by kayemod, 07 June 2012 - 16:42.

[Tuboscocca]

I don't want to sidetrack this thread with irrelevancies, but in this case the French mystique means exactly the same as mystical in English, and they have a perfectly good word for legendary, légendaire, which again has exactly the same meaning as our version. I suspect it was just an unfortunate choice of word in both languages, but on the plus side, at least he didn't write iconic or vintage.

Oh please come -on!!23 GTOs full stop. I think that's enough, mythical, legendary..so who cares??
More than half of the produced cars are there and are to be driven around the track...

Maybe be I'm not sensitive enough (wooden German..) ....

Regards Michael

[kayemod]

Maybe be I'm not sensitive enough (wooden German..) ....

Regards Michael

We like to be "korrekt" about these things, especially as we no longer have the Blood Pressure thread to complain about incorrect use of language, and "mythical" GTOs wouldn't really exist.

[BRG]

I don't want to sidetrack this thread with irrelevancies, but in this case the French mystique means exactly the same as mystical in English, and they have a perfectly good word for legendary, légendaire, which again has exactly the same meaning as our version. I suspect it was just an unfortunate choice of word in both languages, but on the plus side, at least he didn't write iconic or vintage.

But it doesn't say 'mystique' in the French text, it says 'mythique', and both I, and Google Chrome translator, render that as 'legendary' in English, which is, I think, a very fair description of this particular model.

How much is a grid of 23 GTOs worth, do we think?

Edited by BRG, 07 June 2012 - 15:24.

[David Birchall]

There are plenty of "mythical" GTOs--they just started life as GTEs...

Good news to hear that 22 of them will be getting together!

I still occasionally watch the recording of the TT from last years Revival with Nick Mason's GTO being treated like a Ford Cortina-that is how to treat them, not like some kind of icon.
Says he without even the means of putting a deposit on one.
(Not one that wouldn't brush off anyway...)

[kayemod]

But it doesn't say 'mystique' in the French text, it says 'mythique'

You're absolutely right, and it didn't say 'mystique in my original post either, only the second one which I've now corrected. That's what comes of posting in a hurry when I should be working, the quality of my daytime posts will improve if I ever retire...

[RCH]

I still occasionally watch the recording of the TT from last years Revival with Nick Mason's GTO being treated like a Ford Cortina-that is how to treat them, not like some kind of icon.
Says he without even the means of putting a deposit on one.
(Not one that wouldn't brush off anyway...)

ISTR seeing Nick Mason being quoted as saying something like, you shouldn't worry too much about bending them, 'cos they're easy to repair.... Suppose they are if you are a multi millionaire!

[Tuboscocca]

There are plenty of "mythical" GTOs--they just started life as GTEs...

Good news to hear that 22 of them will be getting together!

I still occasionally watch the recording of the TT from last years Revival with Nick Mason's GTO being treated like a Ford Cortina-that is how to treat them, not like some kind of icon.
Says he without even the means of putting a deposit on one.
(Not one that wouldn't brush off anyway...)

I would be surprised to see at this anniversary any of the GTE /Favre recreations...and all together could be worth more than 400 Million Dollars...

Mit korrekten Grüssen Michael

[David Birchall]

If I had the means to buy a Favre'/Giordanengo/Allegretti converted GTE/GTO I would!

Needle Nardle Noo...

[David McKinney]

ISTR seeing Nick Mason being quoted as saying something like, you shouldn't worry too much about bending them, 'cos they're easy to repair.... Suppose they are if you are a multi millionaire!

The quote I recall was to the effect that no matter how bad the damage, the cost of repair would never approach the value of the car

[Jack-the-Lad]

Does anyone (Doug?) know how many are expected for Revival?

Jack.

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 07 June 2012 - 21:55.

[hamsterace]

How much is a grid of 23 GTOs worth, do we think?
[/quote]

With the best will in the world, does it really matter? I fail to see the modern fascination - largley inspired by the media it would seem - regarding the values of historic cars. As with all racing cars they are, at the end of the day, tools to do a job which in some cases (such as the GTO) happen to be breathtakingly beautiful.

I remember being told by a well known historic dealer/ driver (and former owner of the GTO's slightly wayward cousin, the Ferrari Breadvan) some years ago that old cars are "merely tin and wheels, dear boy...." This of course does not mean that they should be thrashed, abused or hurled at each other BTCC style - merely driven, enjoyed and viewed in anything but monetary terms.

More Nick Masons please - fewer pinstripe suited hedge fund managers....

[john ruston]

It only matters to those buying or selling and nobody else.

When someone asks me how much a car is worth the answer is always ,'Why do you want to buy it?'

Usual answer is no and at that point I give up.

[raceannouncer2003]

At Monterey in 2004, a grid of 20 GTOs was actually raced. I guess times have changed!

Vince H.

[john ruston]

Think there is a difference between US Historic Racing and the European stuff.A Monterey 'race' is a lot different to a brisk trip at Goodwood or Silverstone.

This became apparent at Monaco.

[raceannouncer2003]

Think there is a difference between US Historic Racing and the European stuff.A Monterey 'race' is a lot different to a brisk trip at Goodwood or Silverstone.

This became apparent at Monaco.

My point is that I don't think it's likely that we'll see 20 GTOs racing together anywhere again, Monterey, Goodwood, or Silverstone, owing to their "extreme" value.

Vince H.

[Wirra]

There were about 22 at Pebble Beach last August but only around 7 ran at Laguna Seca the day before in a 250GT only race. You could take it from that there are about one-third of owners prepared to give them a bit of a gallop.

[David M. Kane]

Should make for some interesting photos!

[elansprint72]

Should make for some interesting photos!

According to provisional entry list #7, there are no GTOs entered to race.

[Tuboscocca]

According to provisional entry list #7, there are no GTOs entered to race.

Just to clarify:

the 23 GTOs are only for display there and do two parade laps...No-one ever talked of racing!!

The GTO owners join every 5 years ...(since the 20th birthday!) for an informal gathering with splendid cuisine and wines at chateaus


Just to watch and enjoy, if one likes??

Regards Michael

[klemcoll]

Just a small comment for the benefit of some unknowing cynics present here: Almost all GTO owners are reasonably accomplished amateur racers, both in historic and modern cars and almost all GTO owners have raced their GTOs at one time or another, both in Europe and the USA. There are almost none who could be described as "pin striped hedge fund" types. Generally, they are a delightful and enthusiastic bunch who in no way hesitate to enjoy and use their cars as they were intended to be used.

[elansprint72]

My latest "press release" seems to indicate that the GTOs will be displayed on Thursday.

Edit: not true; it is Friday, see correction below.

Edited by elansprint72, 04 July 2012 - 07:33.

[Kpy]

My latest "press release" seems to indicate that the GTOs will be displayed on Thursday.

To whom?
The circuit is closed to the public on Thursday.
The SITE says Friday "from 1 pm to 5 pm. A two track-lap parade will be organised between 4 and 4.30 pm in honour of the 50th anniversary of this exceptional model" but plateau 5 practice is 15:55-16:40 on Friday.

[elansprint72]

To whom?
The circuit is closed to the public on Thursday.
The SITE says Friday "from 1 pm to 5 pm. A two track-lap parade will be organised between 4 and 4.30 pm in honour of the 50th anniversary of this exceptional model" but plateau 5 practice is 15:55-16:40 on Friday.

Two pdf releases arrived together, one in French and one in English; the English one seems to be slightly corrupted (at least when it opens on my PC!). Compared to the French version there is half a page missing, some images missing and the lines separating the days in the programme are not all there- at least that's my excuse.


You are quite correct- it is Friday, apologies. In future I shall read the original version first, unless it is in Russian!

[Doug Nye]

We are obviously hopeful of fielding a trackful of GTOs at the Revival Meeting - in support of the trackful of Silver Arrows GP cars - and of 2 1/2-litre front-engined GP cars - and of 1 1/2-litre F1 cars - and of Davids Isopon-filled saloon car junk (personal attitude) - and of Juniors etc etc etc - and details will be published when appropriate.

BUT, I must say that my recollection of the GTO-only race at Laguna one year was of how dull such a one make/one model event looked. That was possibly because only two or three of the sparkling fleet were really racing. And I'm a racer. The E-Types-only event at Revival last year was, by comparison, a wild bar-room brawl.

Perhaps one's blase attitude to GTOs is a generational thing?

Those of us who saw GTOs competing when current generally adored the things, but still kept their stature in proportion. After all, who and what did they beat? As Brits we adored them even more when they got their backsides kicked by Dick Protheroe at Reims and by Roy Salvadori at Monza (in E-Type Low-drag Coupe and Aston Martin Project 214 respectively). But post-period hype has tended to distort reality. Rather like the alleged 'Cobra-Ferrari' War - the GT Category was really a so-what class compared to the sports-prototypes from Ford and Ferrari, and it was the Ford-Ferrari War which really mattered. If it was a war we are talking the difference here between the Aleutians Campaign and the Normandy Landings. Having been fortunate enough to have driven GTOs in relative anger on both road and track I absolutely love 'em to bits - but a proper sense of proportion should not be dazzled by their latter-day monetary value...and the hype which accompanies it. For £4-6,000 I certainly wouldn't turn one down.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 04 July 2012 - 16:21.

[David Birchall]

Doug, have I got a deal for you!
And only forty nine hundred quid! (To you)

http://www.amazon.co...2/dp/B0002HX512

[Mistron]

and details will be published when appropriate.

BUT, I must say that my recollection of the GTO-only race at Laguna one year was of how dull such a one make/one model event looked.

The E-Types-only event at Revival last year was, by comparison, a wild bar-room brawl.

drifting O/T, as the GTO gathering at Le Mans isn't a race, but I'm afraid I agree partially with Doug - one make racing is what makes so much of the sport so dreary these days, but I fear this years Cobra race will be no different. No matter how close the racing is, one is left feeling "well of course it's close, they are all the same"

The Minis were OK (and such races did of course occur in period), but the E types left me rather underwhelmed and they were without any such historical context which used to be so central to the Revival ideal.

Variery is indeed the spice of life

[Arjan de Roos]

For £4-6,000 I certainly wouldn't turn one down.

DCN

If only Enzo had managed to reach or exceed the homologation quantities back in 62/64....

[Peter Morley]

If only Enzo had managed to reach or exceed the homologation quantities back in 62/64....

Enzo still managed to produce 5 times as many GTOs as the opposition produced of the Cobra coupes.

I admire Doug (yet again) for his fearlessness in potentially offending our overseas cousins who in my experience don't take kindly to having the importance of the Cobra campaign being clarified...

Edited by Peter Morley, 06 July 2012 - 09:02.

[Doug Nye]

Cor, thanks David. But it's the insurance that's the killer...

DCN

[AJB]

Enzo still managed to produce 5 times as many GTOs as the opposition produced of the Cobra coupes.

The Cobra coupes (Daytona, Willment and AC) were legitimate rebodies of a homologated car, that was specifically catered for in the rules for GT cars at that time. The 250 GTO was a car of which only 39 examples were built from 1962-64 when the rules required 100 in a 12 month period.
On the other hand the Breadvan Ferrari was a legitimate rebody of a 250GT SWB under the GT Rules, but often forced to run as a Prototype due to pressure on race organisers from SEFAC Ferrari.

[bradbury west]

But it's the insurance that's the killer...
DCN

The last figures I heard of were 1% of agreed market value for shipping purposes. Is that still about the mark?
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 06 July 2012 - 12:41.

[David Birchall]

The Cobra coupes (Daytona, Willment and AC) were legitimate rebodies of a homologated car, that was specifically catered for in the rules for GT cars at that time. The 250 GTO was a car of which only 39 examples were built from 1962-64 when the rules required 100 in a 12 month period.
On the other hand the Breadvan Ferrari was a legitimate rebody of a 250GT SWB under the GT Rules, but often forced to run as a Prototype due to pressure on race organisers from SEFAC Ferrari.

Ferrari stretched the homologation rules but did he really break them? The GTO was a direct evolution of the 250SWB and the Breadvan incorporated the same modifications of the chassis as the GTo so far as I understand. So the GTO and the Breadvan are as legal as each other...
This is why people can take a period 250 GT and build a very convincing replica GTO out of it.

[D-Type]

Ferrari stretched the homologation rules but did he really break them? The GTO was a direct evolution of the 250SWB and the Breadvan incorporated the same modifications of the chassis as the GTo so far as I understand. So the GTO and the Breadvan are as legal as each other...
This is why people can take a period 250 GT and build a very convincing replica GTO out of it.

The 1962 evolution of the 250 GT was homologated by the FIA as an evolution of the 250 GT series. Hence Ferrari referred to it as the 250 GT 'Omologata' (Homologated) which was shortened to 250 GT 'O' and then to 250 GTO.

[Scuderia CC]

Ferrari 250 GTO celebrates 50th anniversary in the hills of Champagne-Ardenne :

http://www.anamera.c...l...1&tx_ttnews[backPid]=226&cHash=13179dd010

Gallery :
http://barchetta.med...ry/?Dir=2024376

[RTH]

Is it just me ? Like the boy looking at the Emperor's suit of new clothes, I just cannot see a GTO as being that amazing, nice enough looking certainly but not more so than many other cars. I have never wished to own one however inexpensive it might have once been.
Clearly from the above not a majority view. The 250LM is more purposeful in my eyes.

Edited by RTH, 06 July 2012 - 16:27.

[AJB]

The 1962 evolution of the 250 GT was homologated by the FIA as an evolution of the 250 GT series. Hence Ferrari referred to it as the 250 GT 'Omologata' (Homologated) which was shortened to 250 GT 'O' and then to 250 GTO.

But the 250GT was homologated, so why wasn't that called 'Omologata' and the 250GTO called an EVO? (Devil's Advocate)
There was obviously a fair bit of generosity on the part of the FIA for many cars in the 60s, but even they couldn't accept a 250LM as an updated GTO.

[Doug Nye]

The GTO is simply so useable Richard, whereas the LM is a pig on the public road. For 34-million you too can purchase a two-seater with charisma, presence, baggage space and gold-chip investment status that you can race on a Sunday, use for shopping on Monday, tour or rally Tuesday-Friday, hill-climb on Saturday and use for a mega pose on some concours lawn the following Sunday.

Way back, Geoff Goddard and I memorably nipped down to the plumbing store in Windsor to get some compression fittings and bath taps, then nipped back to his place, all in Nick Mason's GTO. It did look a little incongruous parked outside Pipes r Us. I also pitched up at my mum and dad's council house in an LM, but needed help to reverse back out again safely. With the in/out clutch - slip it and it's cooked - and frail gearbox the LM was a liability in contrast to the GTO. Amazing how the Italians rallied them in the Giro d'Italia.

The 250GT SWB is a lovely road car, but without the shapely GTO's pizzazz. Of course the GTOs' legendary status almost evaporates when you consider the type's competition record, i.e. what did they beat? But they really do remain special things to drive. Had they beaten more worthy opposition and had more power they would be beyond criticism. But you are right. The truth is that they are not.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 06 July 2012 - 18:01.

[RTH]

Sadly all this will remain hypothetical my chances of ever driving either car are set fimly at nil.
I have already had a look down the back of the sofa and I am still not that close to 34 million.
The only Ferraris I have experience of were from the 80s & 90s 308 328 348 though I must say I did quite like the 355.... don't think I have driven any others.

You couldn't get much half inch copper pipe or cisterns in them either, just about manage a tin of plumbers mait.

[David Birchall]

The only alternative that I can see is a really good replica-built from a 250GT base. There are some really good ones just tantalisingly out of reach...
Of course, there are also GT40 replicas with monocoques, 289s and ZFs just about within reach but how long does one want to keep ones license? My heavy right foot says not long!

[D-Type]

Earlier in the thread Doug asked

After all, who and what did they beat?

On reflection, who and what did any 250GT beat? There was very little opposition in the big GT class. Jaguar XK140, Austin Healey 3000, Chevrolet Corvette, Aston Martin DB4, and Mercedes 300SL seem to be about it. And only the last 2 were anywhere near the Ferraris in performance terms.

But the GTO still has that certain something. Class, maybe?

[David Birchall]

Earlier in the thread Doug asked

On reflection, who and what did any 250GT beat? There was very little opposition in the big GT class. Jaguar XK140, Austin Healey 3000, Chevrolet Corvette, Aston Martin DB4, and Mercedes 300SL seem to be about it. And only the last 2 were anywhere near the Ferraris in performance terms.

How about they beat everything that came up against them?
There was nothing comparible with them in the late fifties in GT racing. The examples you mention were from major manufactures and the 250 GT Fazzaz beat them all. (luigi)

[David Wright]

Enzo still managed to produce 5 times as many GTOs as the opposition produced of the Cobra coupes.

Actually Enzo took on the Cobra coupes with re-bodied GTOs - the '64 GTO. Three new ones were built and four older cars re-bodied.

[David Birchall]

It is worth bearing in mind that the reason that Ferrari came out with the GTO was because of their fear of the Jaguar E Type!
If Jaguar had fulfilled the promise of the E Type then the GTO would not have had the easy time that it did, nor probably, would it be worth so much now.
Although Jaguar did build something like 73,000 E Types...
Calling Dr. Klat...

[David Wright]

I think the GTO should be seen in the context of the FIA sports car rules. It was introduced in 1962, the year that the World Manufacturer's Championship was transferred from sports cars to GTs. While the FIA failed in their attempt to replace sports car racing with GT racing, it did raise the profile of GT racing, encouraging Jaguar to dip their toe in the water with the lightweight E-type.

I think you can make a good case that 1962-64 was a golden age in GT racing, with Ferrari, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Shelby and (in US races), Chevrolet in the mix. And although the GTO was beaten on occasion by Jaguar and Aston Martin, and more regularly by Shelby, it was the most successful GT car of its time, winning the World Manufacturer's Championships in 1962, 1963 and 1964.

Prototypes may have retained their importance over this period but surely no one would describe 1962-64 as their golden age. This was to come with the Ford Ferrari war 1965-67, the Gulf Porsche war 1968-69, and the Porsche Ferrari war 1970-71.

[Doug Nye]

1962-65 was certainly a golden age in GT racing, but for those of us who followed the races avidly at the time - apart from certain members of the FIA hierarchy, when it suited him Mr Ferrari, Carlo Abarth, Ferry Porsche and latterly Carroll Shelby - it was the sports-prototype cars that remained a far superior life form. Which is entirely as it should be... It is perfectly justified to regard 1967 as a high-tide of sports-prototype competition, just as 1957 had been. 1968-1971 then maintained a remarkable standard, with different accents prevailing...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 08 July 2012 - 16:39.