39 replies to this topic

[putsa]

The accident which killed the marshall hapened right in front of us. It was so fast and so violent that the video footage was tame in comparison. As far as blame, the marshall was not where he should have been (at the marshall post) he was standing right against the fence where he should have known better not to be. It was a miracle all those around us were not also killed or injured other than a few cuts. It was a very unerving experience. Right now I feel very lucky to be alive. But sad for the marshall.

[baddog]

rather you having to see that than me my friend. I hope it wasnt too traumatic.

I guess the conflict between marshalls (who are after all race fancs) desire to watch the race from their close up position, and the rules they are given that demand they stand well back are always going to cause these incidents (wasnt the monza marhall in a similiar position?)

Shaun

[Indian Chief]

At both incidents, the marshall should not have been standing where he was. At Monza, Gislimberti moved from his assigned position just before the cars came through. Had he stayed where he was earlier, he would not have been struck by the wheel.

[Dimo]

I think that's what adds to the tragedy of both these events. These guys are real F1 fans, volunteering to help the sport they love and wanting to get as close to it as possible. As close as you or I would want to be.

If you were there and saw someone pull out to pass, wouldn't you want to put yourself where you could get the best view?

It's sad, so truly sad. My thoughts to anyone who was close by, and obviously condolences to the marshall's family.

BTW, "putsa"...are you Greek by any chance?

[pRy]

A report suggests he was a crowd marshal, who can stand just about anywhere really. He wasnt meant to be standing at the post.

[Fraze]

Think of the difference in press coverage if it had been a driver who was killed.

I think the marshals are among the unsung heroes of our sport. I think their Job is more dangerous than the drivers and they aren’t paid quite the same amount (if at all) for it.

We need to make sure these incidents are not forgotten, without proportioning blame, which is very negative thing to do. Such incidents are rare, let’s do what we can to make them less frequent.

But (sorry for the cliché') life goes on, and F1 is life, excitement, drama, tragedy and injustice.

[JL Wade]

Originally posted by putsa
The accident which killed the marshall hapened right in front of us. It was so fast and so violent that the video footage was tame in comparison. As far as blame, the marshall was not where he should have been (at the marshall post) he was standing right against the fence where he should have known better not to be. It was a miracle all those around us were not also killed or injured other than a few cuts. It was a very unerving experience. Right now I feel very lucky to be alive. But sad for the marshall.

Anyways...I'm just glad you Aussie race fans are o.k. and I regret that you had to see such a terrible thing.

[Ali_G]

Does anyone know wether it was debris or JV's car which hit this Marshal.

Niall

[rek]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Does anyone know wether it was debris or JV's car which hit this Marshal.

a local paper has this report:

http://www.theage.co...FX718WLVJC.html

"The race was run behind a pace car for several laps while the wreckage was cleared from the track and an ambulance crew attended to the marshal, believed to have been hit by a wheel."

[markzed]

Glad to hear you are OK, putsa.
Was the medical response immediate?

[MrAerodynamicist]

putsa, can you shed any light on how the accident was instigated? (How close were RS & JV down the straight, how late did they brake, etc?)

[david_martin]

The latest report, including quotes from a couple of local witnesses can be found in The Age Online (Melbourne morning broadsheet) here:

http://www.theage.co...FXMRAWLVJC.html

[Williams]

Mr.A the term "instigated" seems to point at the drivers for responsibilty for the death of the marshal. This unfortunate incident has more to do with track safety and procdeures than it does with the actions of JV and RS on the track.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Williams, don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to blame either for the death. 'Instigated' was the best word I could think of at the time.

[tifoso]

Personally, I was pleased to hear Reubens refer to the marshal as a "colleague" during the post race interviews. It showed at least some of the drivers respect those who volunteer so they can race.

[Option1]

I agree tifosi. In fact, I think all 3 drivers showed some class in the way they spoke at the post race press conference. They were obviously visibly moved by the tragedy.

[Mat]

I saw footage last night on one of the news channels here in Melbourne, showing the tyre go through the gap in the fence, used for the photographers and hit the marshall, it it's him on his left side, around the waist to lower ribs area, and you see him start get knocked to the ground, before they cut the footage.

I was working at the track over the weekend, and we were getting updated by our security supervisor as the race went on. The atmosphere was so sombre after the race, everyone just wanted to go home.

My heart goes out to his family and friends.

[djned]

Originally posted by Mat
I saw footage last night on one of the news channels here in Melbourne, showing the tyre go through the gap in the fence, used for the photographers and hit the marshall, it it's him on his left side, around the waist to lower ribs area, and you see him start get knocked to the ground, before they cut the footage.

yes, that's right. if you'll imagine that the standard camera angle was extended a couple of inches to the left, that's what channel 9 down here was showing (i wonder how they could extend it so ?).

they used one of those nifty 'magnifying glass' effects to blow up the image of the tyre striking the marshal.

also, putsa was talking about the violence of the incident, channel 9 news also showed a home video of the accident, filmed from a spot on the track but on the other side of the gravel trap. the video was filmed really well, a panning shot tracking villeneuve flying through the air. the accident was shown real time and the speed that villeneuve carried up to the point he the kitty litter arrested his slide was scary to watch.

rip.

[GTI]

Few laps after the accident when the ambulance picked up the poor Marshall I've noticed the safety car didn't stop the line of F1s approaching the accident point when the ambulance was trying to leave the site? Instead we had the ambulance stop (although it appeared ready to leave) to incoming traffic, until the whole line of F1s passed the point before it could exit??
Don't think the premises where the F1 race is on should be excluded of the fundamental rule: When the emergency vehicle is on the way, pull to the right and STOP!

[putsa]

First of all, it was a racing incident, just like all the other cut offs and Tbones. Next it was a tyre that actually hit him but it is not yet certain that killed hime as he was leaning against the fence with his chest and stomach right where the car hit the fence. The fence jolted him also. Everybody there hit the deck but we where all too late. Had the safety fence failed I would be in a box now.I am still shaking now. I have been requested by the police to make a statement and give evidence to the coronor. I am sure the truth will come out there

[AlesiGOD]

[MattFoster]

What a sad sad affair

[tallguy]

hell Putsa what must the odds be of being in that exact wrong spot at the wrong time ?
Horrible ending to a good day

[irineos]

Hey poutsa when people talk to you are they looking straight at you or they have to look down? Sorry about being off topic.....

[Clatter]

Originally posted by GTI
Few laps after the accident when the ambulance picked up the poor Marshall I've noticed the safety car didn't stop the line of F1s approaching the accident point when the ambulance was trying to leave the site? Instead we had the ambulance stop (although it appeared ready to leave) to incoming traffic, until the whole line of F1s passed the point before it could exit??
Don't think the premises where the F1 race is on should be excluded of the fundamental rule: When the emergency vehicle is on the way, pull to the right and STOP!

Couldnt agree more, but then when someone is injured and medical workers are on the track the race should be stopped. It disturbs me that the only real reason that races are not stopped is because it upsets the TV schedules.

[jmcgavin]

Very sad situation to writing these words again, condolences to his friends and family. Was really looking forward to the start of the season, this has really cast a shadow over what should have been a happy day

[Cavallino]

GTI, I thought exactly the same thing !

I found it incredible that the ambulance had to give way to the safety car and the F1 cars before taking the track.

Didn't the F1 people know that the ambulance had to eventually take the track and, therefore, they should have stopped the race to avoid running into or hindering the ambulance's departure to the hospital ?

I find this whole episode very disturbing.

[Dimo]

I understand what some of you are trying to say, but I think stopping the race and having a restart would be more dangerous to everyone involved.

[Paste]

Originally posted by Clatter


Couldnt agree more, but then when someone is injured and medical workers are on the track the race should be stopped. It disturbs me that the only real reason that races are not stopped is because it upsets the TV schedules.

Come on now. You don't truly believe that TV schedules are the only reason, do you?

[FlagMan]

Stopping the race can often make it more difficult to carry out a rescue - crowds tend to try to get near to the accident scene to see what is going on - which can often hinder rescue personel getting to the incident.

As for the ambulance on the track letting the pack go past - this is standard practice for as it often makes it easier to get the ambulance to its destination.

Stopping the pack (especially for F1 cars ) can often result in one or more cars stalling - these then have to be retrieved - which could then hinder any further rescue crews/ambulances from getting to and from the incident scene.

[Will]

GTI: It is very likely that the reason the ambulance was going so slowly was because the marshall had been proclaimed dead or in a a state that was inevitably going to lead to death at the scene. I'm sure that they would have stopped the race otherwise.

[arcwulf7]

In Senna's accident at Imola the red flag went up within seconds of incident. But at Monza and in this case the safety car was brought out. A speedier reaction to medical treatment and to hospital would have made no difference in any of the three cases. Red flags of course means you return to the starting grid under yellow conditions and turn the engine off, and are restarted by a safety car. It seems to depend on local situations, at Imola the mode of transport was helicopter, which had to land on the track. I doubt the ambulance was slowed to much by the waiting for the pack, which would have passed in maybe twenty seconds, and did not impede its progress when it was on the track.

[Clatter]

Paste, I do believe the overriding factor as to whether a race is stopped or not is the TV schedules. Cynical view I know, but there you go.

[Dimo]

Originally posted by Will
GTI: It is very likely that the reason the ambulance was going so slowly was because the marshall had been proclaimed dead or in a a state that was inevitably going to lead to death at the scene.

Apparently true. I'm copying my post from another thread which addresses this:

Originally posted by Dimo
Elsewhere someone mentioned that the time of death was more than an hour after the accident. The thing you have to remember is that the official time of death is when you are "declared dead", which is different from the time your heart stopped beating, etc.

If you read the following it is apparent that the marshall was dead moments after the accident. It was all over long before the ambulance had to pass the line of F1 cars, as was witnessed by Ralf:

Source: http://www.formula1....1/03/s4746.html

Ralf witnessed marshal's death 05 Mar 2001

BMW WilliamsF1 driver Ralf Schumacher admitted on Monday that he witnessed the tragic death of Graham Beveridge, the race marshal killed during Sunday's Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne.

Speaking to the German newspaper Bild, Michael Schumacher's younger brother revealed how he saw the injured man lying only a few metres away from where his and Jacques Villeneuve's car impacted while entering the circuit's Turn 3.

"I saw him die and it was terrible", he said sadly. "In that precise moment, I had a thousand thoughts in my head. I asked myself if he had a family and hoped that he did not have any kids." When asked if he felt any fear, the German driver acknowledged: "Of course I did. I saw Jacques car flying inches over my head."

Schumacher initially told journalists in Melbourne that he thought a wheel from his own car had killed Beveridge, as he saw it fly over the catch fencing, but the Australian Grand Prix chief, Ron Walker, has since announced that a wheel from Villeneuve's car slipped through a hole in the catch fencing designed to allow marshals access to the track in the case of an emergency.

[putsa]

Guys, he was lying at my feet, he was as dead as dead, there was no point in going fast.

[andy_bee]

putsa,

I found some photos on Sutton http://www.sutton-im...crashoz01/.html If you scroll down you can see where the cars come to rest, I think a good 25-50yds past the spot where you were, but what concerns me is that in this area is just yellow and green tape.

Is this the case, or had the cars been moved when the photo was taken??

I'm assuming that the whole in the wall was between the Shell Helix sign and the green wall.

Best wishes Putsa, you take care

[djned]

andy_bee linked...
I found some photos on Sutton http://www.sutton-im...crashoz01/.html

anyone got the login/password for the large images ???

[Ray Bell]

A part of the severity of the scene, from where you were, would be that the cars weren't slowing down like they should have been.

On the news they have just said that Beveridge's family will get some compensation...

[John]

From file photos (news services) you can see the crowd's delayed reaction to the crash. They are standing right at the fence, and despite the crash happening in front of them, their faces are indifferent and they are still looking down track. The next photo of Villeuve's car almost coming to rest show people moving away. They should not be next to the fence in a run-off area. It's just too close.

It also is a good demonstration of how fast everything happened. It certainly looked fast on televsion.

[Loz]

If the info in this thread is true, and based on the pics and the limited info in the press, I think it is...why hasn't it come out to the public yet. I realize it has only been a few days, but the way its being portrayed in the press makes it sound like the wheel flew through the air, went through the opening, and hit someone. What it sounds like really happened was much more logical. Villeneuves car flew into/along a barrier with great force. Any opening in this barrier would allow pieces of villenuces car to come through, much like a cheese grater. Unfortunately there was an opening large enough to fit a wheel and the suspension of the car.

Now it sounds like the wheel was still attached when it came through, but was shorn off by the frame of the opening, and thats when it hit the marshal. As noted by Putsa, anyone standing right up against the fence would effectively have been hit by the whole car, and as he implied, the marshal was.

There has been a lot of talk about wheel tethers and their failure to work, but I wonder why no one has pointed out the fact that was raised by Jackie Stewart in an interview from last year. He effectively said "there is a limit to how strong we can make them. Yes, we could guarantee they would not break off, but remember these things are attached to the life cell, which is there to protect the driver. The last thing we need is for the force of the wheel to tear the cell apart."

If the wheel tethers had been stronger and the above scenario of JV's wheel going through the fence it true, what would have happened. The marshal would still be dead, the fence would have been destroyed/ripped, possibly injuring more people, and we could probably write JV off because his car would have gone from 200+ kph to 0 in about 5 feet.

It is horrible that someone was killed. But making quick rule adjustments, or public statements about what the cause was, without really delving into the "what and why" of the accident is truly negligent, and will result in further injuries.

Loz