94 replies to this topic

[Dolph]

There are 2 Finnish drivers currently in F1. Both of their names are mis-spelled. Hakkinens has 2 dots on its "a" and Raikkonens "a" & "o" are also with 2 dots on top. Salo on the other hand is written correctly.

I was wondering if this could be changed so that the names would be written as they actually are?

[bira]

Flexy, my name in Hebrew is written as בירנית. My name written in English, on the other hand, is written as Biranit.

The same applies to Finnish names. that cute little o with two dots on top is not an English consonant. Hence, it is not part of the English Language.

Mika's surname in Finnish is Häkkinen. Translated to English, it's Hakkinen. Don't confuse the two, just because the seem to look similar.

And, while Atlas F1 is an English publication - not Finnish - all names will be written in English, whether they are of people or of places.

[Dolph]

Fair enough

[Makarias]

Dear bira, the fascinating thing about it all is that that cute little o with two dots on top is not a Finnish consonant either, it's a vowel...

[PeaQ]

I thought it was swedish?

[Max Torque]

Not only do I completely agree with bira, but I wish all of you started writting Hakkinen without the dots as I don't share the alternate alphabet you have on your computer and I see Hakkinen's and Raikkonen's names with greek characters in them.
Can't you just write with the 'universal' english alphabet so we can all be ok?

[PeaQ]

or we can all start using unicode...

[The Swerve]

Or morse?
...///...///...///...

[Pit Babe]

Morse

Max, I second PQ: Unicode should solve that problem.

I wonder if I could always refer to bira as בירנית from now on.

[Max Torque]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is unicode and how will it solve this particular problem?

[Pit Babe]

Explanation here: http://www.unicode.o...tIsUnicode.html

In Greek (available in other languages also, but IIRC you are Greek):
http://www.unicode.o...ions/greek.html

Hope that helps.

[Max Torque]

Thanks.

[Max Torque]

This is interesting. Based on what I found on that site I tried to write my name in greek here (in the same way Bira wrote hers) but I can't! What gives?

I guess things are a bit more complicated than I thought. Isn't Bira's code there Unicode as well?

[Pit Babe]

I thought so, but my assumption comes from the fact that I use IE5.5, it supports Unicode display, and I have downloaded every optional text display component to go with it.

[Max Torque]

My version of IE is 5.0 and I have no idea how to "download every optional text display component to go with it"!
Although I DO see Hebrew there on Bira's post.

Oh well, it was worth the try.
On to other exciting things...

[Uncle Davy]

I think we should all learn Esperanto; but then, I've also seen the black helicopters...;)

[bira]

I did not use unicode to write my name in hebrew, but rather html replacement special characters.

[Pit Babe]

Well, that would explain it. Thanks...but it would be possible to write Hebrew in Unicode, would it not? Forgive me, my knowledge of Unicode is rather basic.

[bira]

No idea, Pit Babe, I never used unicode

[bira]

by the way, I think we're seeing it differently as you'd need Hebrew fonts installed in IE to see it in Hebrew. Otherwise, it would just use replacement characters - most common are just plain squares

[Pit Babe]

I have Hebrew fonts installed. I believe in being totally overequipped for everything.

[PeaQ]

unicode even includes most chinese signs, and yes, also those pecky hebrew signs...

[The Kanisteri]

Out of topic but must tell because I got sweet laugh when reading Eurosport text-tv:
Räikkönen was named "Rakkonen"
"-nen" is common end for finnish lastnames but "rakko"
its literally means bladder!

Anyway its very usual that internationally famous finnish names has many misspellings in international press.(duh!)

[stoopid]

on a related note...

my birth certificate says "Pollanen". my finnish passport says "Pöllänen". what's my name?

[PeaQ]

Pollänen?

[rob_o_neill]

Not really bothered

[Tomecek]

I don't mean it as some attack, just interested in answer for question: why you write Raikkonen, Hakkinen instead of correct Räikkönen, Häkkinen etc?
Strange for me as specially AtlasF1 keep attention on very small details...

[david_martin]

This might shed some light on the subject.

[lustigson]

Funny subject. I learned in school that you shouldn't translate names from another language to your own. That's why I write Häkkinen and Räikkönen. In English I can imagine it isn't even necessary to write Häkkinen with ä, because the name is already pronounced 'Hekkinen'. In Dutch we say something like 'Haokkinen' without an ä, so...

It is quite a different matter, however, when you talk about different scripts.

[bira]

This is how it looks on my screen:

[Vrba]

Names shouldn't be translated from one language to another. They could only be transcribed from one script to another and that is the consequence of the lack of suitable letters for certain sounds in different scripts. Therefore, as long as we use latin script, Räikkönen has to have ä and ö instead of a and o. Only if we write Kimi's last name in, e.g. cyrillic script we may use transcribed form and that's only because there's no letters such as ä and ö in cyrillic script.
American and English custom of writing and pronouncing foreign names according to English rules is simply illiterate and ignorant.

Hrvoje

[BRG]

Originally posted by Vrba
American and English custom of writing and pronouncing foreign names according to English rules is simply illiterate and ignorant.

An illconsidered assault on the poor old Anglophones there! I suppose that I have imagined that the French call London "Londres" & the Italians call it "Londra" or that the Spanish call my country "Reino Unido" or "Gran Bretaña" rather the United Kingdom or Great Britain? Most languages apply their own rules to foreign names. Don't just single out the English speakers!

[bira]

What about John, Yohan, Juan, etc? -- As if those are different names

[lustigson]

Originally posted by bira
This is how it looks on my screen:

Huh? Maybe it's because I used ALT+132 and ALT+148, which shows up different on your screen? Weird.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by BRG
An illconsidered assault on the poor old Anglophones there! I suppose that I have imagined that the French call London "Londres" & the Italians call it "Londra" or that the Spanish call my country "Reino Unido" or "Gran Bretaña" rather the United Kingdom or Great Britain? Most languages apply their own rules to foreign names. Don't just single out the English speakers!

I think it's something different to translate country names, BRG. Those are usually descriptive, like "United Kingdom" could mean anything, besides the country. And you could even use it in plural: a large number of United Kingdoms. Same goes for Nederland, The Netherlands, Niederlände, etc, which just means the low country's. On the other hand their's Belgium as in the land of the Belgians, Germany as in land of the Germans, etc.

City and peoples names one shouldn't translate, but that's only my opinion.

[bira]

Originally posted by lustigson

Huh? Maybe it's because I used ALT+132 and ALT+148, which shows up different on your screen? Weird.

It's because a Greek user with a Greek-enabled system would see Greek alphabet instead of Finnish; an Israeli with a Hebrew-enabled system would see Hebrew alphabet and so forth.

I remember someone once explaining to me about the mapping of characters on computers - can't repeat the explanation but in a nutshell, any high character that is out of range has a reserved place/value. But that value is used for different characters depending on your system. That's why when you write Häkkinen I see a Hebrew character, you see a Finnish one and Max Torque here sees a Greek one.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by bira
... and Max Torque here sees a Greek one.

As do I.

[Gambino]

Originally posted by lustigson

Huh? Maybe it's because I used ALT+132 and ALT+148, which shows up different on your screen? Weird.

Since we are on this subject, where can I find a table that numbers those symbols and charachters?

[siggers]

Very good explanation here:
http://www.alanwood....supplement.html

Short of getting everybody to write ä everytime (or using unicode), there is no easy way around the problem ...

Edit: That URL +previous page also gives the list of the ASCII set.

[siggers]

Originally posted by lustigson


City and peoples names one shouldn't translate, but that's only my opinion.

I'm not sure it really is a matter of opinion - many languages have 'translated' foreign names (specially if they are important foreign names) historically. So it is really wrong in -say- Italian to speak of 'München' and not Monaco.

And 'Hakkinen' is not really translated, people just avoid using a character that is not part of their alphabet, and most would not know how to produce on their keyboard. Seems a sensible convention to me

[f1sl]

Originally posted by bira
What about John, Yohan, Juan, etc? -- As if those are different names

and Jean ;)

[4mula1]

Originally posted by siggers


And 'Hakkinen' is not really translated, people just avoid using a character that is not part of their alphabet, and most would not know how to produce on their keyboard. Seems a sensible convention to me

I know German has a way around the umlauts using an e after the umaut, for example, Jürgen Hubbert can also be spelled Juergen. Is there any similar system in Finnish?

[Vrba]

Originally posted by BRG
An illconsidered assault on the poor old Anglophones there! I suppose that I have imagined that the French call London "Londres" & the Italians call it "Londra" or that the Spanish call my country "Reino Unido" or "Gran Bretaña" rather the United Kingdom or Great Britain? Most languages apply their own rules to foreign names. Don't just single out the English speakers!

It's different when there is a common domestic name for a foreign town or land because of cultural bonds or common history between two peoples or lands. Such a name originates from either translation or some other reason from the not-so-recent past.
But given names must not be changed. I know that the problem is that it's often impossible to know the exact rules of pronounciation of foreign names. But despite Michael Schumacher's name is written the same way in both languages (English and German), there's no justification of calling him "Mykel" instead of "Meehael" (sorry for very loose phonetics).
Pronouncing foreign names as they are pronounced in their native country shows the culture and education of a man.

Hrvoje

[4mula1]

Originally posted by Vrba


Pronouncing foreign names as they are pronounced in their native country shows the culture and education of a man.

Not to mention respect in the fact that you took the time and effort to learn to correctly pronounce it. I listened to the video clip from McLaren's website with Kimi where he says his name...just to make sure I have been sying it correctly.

[lustigson]

I've always been somewhat amused by the fact that most foreigners I've met -- British, French, Germans, Americans, Canadians, Spaniards, Italians -- had more problems pronouncing names in another language than us Dutchmen have. I think it must have something to do with The Netherlands being such a small country and people (business people, especially) needing to speak at least one foreign language, preferably two. That might explain, too, why Dutch children learn their first English at the age of 10, 11. At 12, 13 they add French and German to that.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by lustigson
I've always been somewhat amused by the fact that most foreigners I've met -- British, French, Germans, Americans, Canadians, Spaniards, Italians -- had more problems pronouncing names in another language than us Dutchmen have. I think it must have something to do with The Netherlands being such a small country and people (business people, especially) needing to speak at least one foreign language, preferably two. That might explain, too, why Dutch children learn their first English at the age of 10, 11. At 12, 13 they add French and German to that.

There is a similar situation in Croatia, although English is starting to slowly eat away all other languages. For example, I speak English and German but am able to pronounce or even read French, Italian, Spanish, Catalan and, to some degree Swedish.
Native English speakers rarely bother as they are most widely understood.

As I mentioned before, one reason why I've chosen to subscribe to F1 Magazine (2 or so years ago) instread to F1 Racing was because F1 Magazine wrote drivers's names properly, with all umlauts.

Hrvoje

[Prostfan]

Calling towns with their proper names is an impossible target. How many people would know Baile Atha Cliath, Ni Dilli, al-Iskandariyah, Donostia, 's-Gravenhage,...

Since this is an English speaking forum, I can live without all diacritic signs.

[wawawa]

Originally posted by Prostfan
...Ni Dilli...

If you meant "New Delhi", it should actually be "Nai Dilli". Or better still, "Nai Thilli" where the "Th" is pronounced as it is in "This".

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Prostfan
... 's-Gravenhage,...

's-Gravenhage isn't that hard. You should just use a 'hard' G in saying it. 's-Hertogenbosch is probably harder.

However, you'd have to say that for both cities there's a shorter and easier alternative: 's-Gravenhage is Den Haag (The Hague) and 's-Hertogenbosch is Den Bosch.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Prostfan
Calling towns with their proper names is an impossible target. How many people would know Baile Atha Cliath, Ni Dilli, al-Iskandariyah, Donostia, 's-Gravenhage,...

Since this is an English speaking forum, I can live without all diacritic signs.

Myx point is that English or any other language doesn't have anything to do with it. It's about script, in this case latin script.
Although they look similar, "ä" and "a" are different letters and using a instead of ä differs little from using "x" instead of "c", for example.
It looks simple and logical to use "o" instead of "ö" because the letters are similar but let's take a look at following example: Croatian alphabet doesn't have letters x, y or q. What letters to use instead of them? The only solution is that foreign names are to be written with those foreign letters. How could they be translated?

Hrvoje