36 replies to this topic

[Romulan]

Check out the 800hp fuel pump.

Bloodhound Video

[Canuck]

Oh, you meant a pump that is 800hp, not capable of supporting 800hp. Indeed.

[Romulan]

Oh, you meant a pump that is 800hp, not capable of supporting 800hp. Indeed.

Awesome!

[jimjimjeroo]

Small chance they'll be testing on my doorstep!

http://www.thisiscor...tail/story.html

[Ali_G]

Debateable in my mind if these are the true land speed records.

IMO, the record should be limited to vehicles which are power via their wheels.


Some of these cars are nothing more than jet fighters with their wings removed. Just look at the North American Project.

[carlt]

Debateable in my mind if these are the true land speed records.

IMO, the record should be limited to vehicles which are power via their wheels.


Some of these cars are nothing more than jet fighters with their wings removed. Just look at the North American Project.

if they show data that the wheels were in contact with the land - then land speed record it must be ?

I believe they do have separate wheel driven record

[green-blood]

Spectacular

And that's just Daniel Jubb's whiskers.... the wellingtons were impressive too

I do love the LSR.... bring it on

Edited by green-blood, 17 June 2012 - 18:14.

[bigleagueslider]

Check out the 800hp fuel pump.

Technically, it's not a fuel pump, it's an oxidizer pump. The Cosworth engine drives a pump that flows peroxide over a metal catalyst bed. As the peroxide (H2O2) flows past the metal catalyst bed, it decomposes into super hot steam (H2O) and oxygen (O2). The super hot steam and oxygen then flow through a solid fuel propellant body producing combustion. The actual solid fuel is a rubber compound HTPB (Hydroxyl-Terminated Polybutadiene).

The huge additional thrust from the Bloodhound rocket engine is only needed for about 20 seconds, as the car accelerates through transonic conditions. The hybrid rocket engine design (peroxide/HTPB) used by Bloodhound is nothing new. Normally these rocket engines use a compressed helium "blow-down" system to pump the peroxide over the catalyst bed. But for some reason the Bloodhound designers felt using a Cosworth F1 engine was a better solution for driving the oxidizer pump.

slider

[Canuck]

Technically, it's not a fuel pump, it's an oxidizer pump.

slider

Technically, you're a pedant.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Anyone else notice that the shape is eerily similar to another vehicle that's been in the news lately?

[Romulan]

Technically, it's not a fuel pump, it's an oxidizer pump.

True.

[Grumbles]

Sorta kinda related - I recently found this in a secondhand bookshop. It's a remarkably honest story of Campbells record attempts at Lake Eyre in 1964. Well worth a read.

[bigleagueslider]

Technically, you're a pedant.

"Oh, you meant a pump that is 800hp, not capable of supporting 800hp. Indeed."

Canuck,

A pedant? Apparently I'm just one of many on this thread.......

But after all, wouldn't one logically assume that an internet forum dedicated to technical issues would naturally attract pedantics like you and I?

Best regards,
slider

[Canuck]

You mean you and me.

Edited by Canuck, 21 June 2012 - 04:59.

[Kelpiecross]

Technically, it's not a fuel pump, it's an oxidizer pump. The Cosworth engine drives a pump that flows peroxide over a metal catalyst bed. As the peroxide (H2O2) flows past the metal catalyst bed, it decomposes into super hot steam (H2O) and oxygen (O2). The super hot steam and oxygen then flow through a solid fuel propellant body producing combustion. The actual solid fuel is a rubber compound HTPB (Hydroxyl-Terminated Polybutadiene).

The huge additional thrust from the Bloodhound rocket engine is only needed for about 20 seconds, as the car accelerates through transonic conditions. The hybrid rocket engine design (peroxide/HTPB) used by Bloodhound is nothing new. Normally these rocket engines use a compressed helium "blow-down" system to pump the peroxide over the catalyst bed. But for some reason the Bloodhound designers felt using a Cosworth F1 engine was a better solution for driving the oxidizer pump.

slider

The compressed helium system would seem to be a much more practical idea than an F1 engine.

As someone else commented, it would be more sensible if LSR cars were wheel-driven only. The speed record for land vehicles (rocket sled on rails) is over 6000mph - rocket cars could finally approach speeds like this.

[Greg Locock]

So we've got a bunch of pendants hanging around here?

[jcbc3]

No, we are all unique.

Like everyone else.

[carlt]

So we've got a bunch of pendants hanging around here?

only hanging by a thread

[OfficeLinebacker]

So nobody wants to admit the shape is like the DeltaWing?

[Ben]

Sorta kinda related - I recently found this in a secondhand bookshop. It's a remarkably honest story of Campbells record attempts at Lake Eyre in 1964. Well worth a read.

Agreed. I picked up a copy of this about 20 years ago - excellent read.

Ben

[Ross Stonefeld]

So nobody wants to admit the shape is like the DeltaWing?

I don't see the similarity. And the Bloodhound has been 'out' for a few years now.

[Canuck]

That explains the rainbow sticker on it.

[OfficeLinebacker]

I don't see the similarity. And the Bloodhound has been 'out' for a few years now.

Much narrower front track than rear track that makes it look almost like a tripod.

Nose aero shape even has two bumps to the outside of the nose for the wheel wells, same as DeltaWing (bump shape is also similar to this year's F1 cars).

Edited by OfficeLinebacker, 21 June 2012 - 16:40.

[dav115]

What happened to their original plan of using the Menard V12 (as used in Superleague Formula) as the pump?

[Fondles]

With regards to the fuel-or-oxidiser pump being driven by an F1 V8 engine, I can't understand why they just didn't use a small gas-driven turbine. Use a tiny amount of the oxidiser to create some gas to run a small turbine to run a pump, job done. A bit of testing to get the flow rates right so there's no real monitoring needed to control the flow and so on.

It just seems like an added layer of complexity that isn't needed.

[pugfan]

With regards to the fuel-or-oxidiser pump being driven by an F1 V8 engine, I can't understand why they just didn't use a small gas-driven turbine. Use a tiny amount of the oxidiser to create some gas to run a small turbine to run a pump, job done. A bit of testing to get the flow rates right so there's no real monitoring needed to control the flow and so on.

It just seems like an added layer of complexity that isn't needed.

Added layer of complexity? The F1 engine solution sounds 'low tech' to me. Exactly what you want in a novel programme like this particularly where weight is not an issue, in fact I believe the opposite is true.

How the oxidiser pump is driven would be way down the list of risks so just chuck something in that doesn't need much design overhead, tick it off the list and move onto the harder things to solve.

There might be more elegant solutions but that's not the aim of this game.

[GreenMachine]

With regards to the fuel-or-oxidiser pump being driven by an F1 V8 engine, I can't understand why they just didn't use a small gas-driven turbine. Use a tiny amount of the oxidiser to create some gas to run a small turbine to run a pump, job done. A bit of testing to get the flow rates right so there's no real monitoring needed to control the flow and so on.

It just seems like an added layer of complexity that isn't needed.

Agree. There is enough knowledge of this technology in rocketry that I would have thought it the obvious choice. I would be interested to hear the reasons they made that choice.

[Fondles]

Added layer of complexity? The F1 engine solution sounds 'low tech' to me. Exactly what you want in a novel programme like this particularly where weight is not an issue, in fact I believe the opposite is true.

How the oxidiser pump is driven would be way down the list of risks so just chuck something in that doesn't need much design overhead, tick it off the list and move onto the harder things to solve.

There might be more elegant solutions but that's not the aim of this game.

But an F1 engine isn't all that low-tech nor are they low on maintenance to start from cold; they have to be pre-warmed for quite some time before they can be started, then they undergo another warming cycle and only after all that can they be run hard.
Take something like the turbine section of a Garrett GT47, feed enough hot gas through it and it'd very easily make the 800hp needed to drive the pump.

Or just use a bottle of inert gas as mentioned earlier and not worry about any of this.

[bigleagueslider]

You mean you and me.

Please excuse my grammar. I was educated in the California public school system.

As for the limitations of my engineering knowledge, I have no one to blame for that. My formal education ended after high school. What little I know about engineering was self-taught.

Best regards,
slider

[bigleagueslider]

Agree. There is enough knowledge of this technology in rocketry that I would have thought it the obvious choice. I would be interested to hear the reasons they made that choice.

GreenMachine,

If you think about it for a moment, the Cossie F1 engine choice makes sense in some respects. That Cossie F1 engine is actually quite lightweight and compact for its power output. It is easy to start and can be throttled up/down with excellent response. Plus it is readily available and much less expensive than a turboshaft engine on a $/HP basis.

Having said all that, there is actually a US company that is developing a piston type peroxide pump for hybrid solid rocket engines. However, I don't believe it would currently be available to the Bloodhound SSC project.

http://www.xcor.com/products/pumps/

Regards,
slider

[Grumbles]

Sixty odd years ago F1 constructors began using Coventry Climax engines that originally powered pumps to put out fires. And here we have an F1 engine once again driving a pump, but this time to keep the fire going...

[GreenMachine]

GreenMachine,

If you think about it for a moment, the Cossie F1 engine choice makes sense in some respects. That Cossie F1 engine is actually quite lightweight and compact for its power output. It is easy to start and can be throttled up/down with excellent response. Plus it is readily available and much less expensive than a turboshaft engine on a $/HP basis.

Regards,
slider

I assume we are talking about a down-rated Cosworth, that does not require the babying that a tuned-to-within-an-inch-of its-life F1 engine requires. Even if it does, I suspect (hope?) that launching this missile is not a 'kick the tyres, light the fires' exercise, and a rigorous start procedure may be an acceptable process.

Having said that, I would still like to see a comaparison of their Cossie with the gas generator option.

[GreenMachine]

Sixty odd years ago F1 constructors began using Coventry Climax engines that originally powered pumps to put out fires. And here we have an F1 engine once again driving a pump, but this time to keep the fire going...

[bigleagueslider]

Having said that, I would still like to see a comaparison of their Cossie with the gas generator option.

GM-

Apparently the Cossie CA2010 also drives on-board electrical & hydraulic APUs.

From the official website:
"BLOODHOUND SSC will carry 963kg (2100lbs) of HTP in a lightweight tank at 1.65bar (25lbs / in2). It will be supplied to the chamber by a high speed pump – in this instance, one based on the design used on the Stentor rocket engine which powered the Blue Steel cruise missile of the 1960’s. The pump was upgraded for us by its original designer and is now 15% more efficient. In Blue Steel, the pump was driven by a 50,000rpm turbine powered by HTP decomposers. This was not considered suitable for BLOODHOUND, so it was decided the pump would be driven by a piston engine. The engine selected is a Cosworth CA 2010 Formula 1 motor, weighing 95kgs and producing around 800bhp. Aside from driving the pump, it also serves as the auxiliary power unit supporting the car’s electrical and hydraulic systems."

Here's the HTP pump:


slider

[Kelpiecross]

Check out the 800hp fuel pump.

Bloodhound Video

I think the important question here is - are you a real Romulan or a Vulcan pretending to be a Romulan?

[bigleagueslider]

It's a bit OT, but I'd personally prefer to see the WLSR be limited to wheel driven vehicles. While I appreciate the high level of engineering behind the Bloodhound SSC project, at what point do we separate automobiles from low flying jets or rockets with vestigial wheels?

On the other hand I can dig the old school, throwback handlebar mustache on the Bloodhound's rocket engine designer. That's how a fearless speed demon should look.



slider

[munks]

Holy crap that's some refined engineering work (on the mustache, I mean)!