35 replies to this topic

[CHRIS500]

I think it should have been, Just because its totally wrong to see the medical car having to stop at the side of the track to allow 15 or so F1 cars past, Remember this is when they are trying to rush this poor guy to the hospital. This is not right and I hope the FIA take the blame for this. Also I think it very unfair that the doctors have to work in those conditions, It must be difficult to talk to others around and on there radios when F1 cars are driving past even if they are behind the SC. It would be so much better for all if the race was stopped then they could get more medical people to the site, and maybe they could have air lifted the guy out of there. I understand that he may have already been died but still out of respect the race should have been stop for a while. I felt the same way after monza last year, when we all saw the F1 cars pass the medical car on its way out of the circuit, Im I the only one that finds this wrong!!!!

[Paste]

No, it shouldn't have been stopped. It's easy to look back in hindsight and say that it should've been, but in that time that they had to make the decision, I believe that they made the correct call.

[Bodzolca]

Definitely, I share your opinion.

[CHRIS500]

paste

ok maybe the first decision to briing the SC out was right, but once the race director knew that somebody was badly hurt the race should have been stopped then. How would you feel if that was one of your family members that was hurt in the medical car and it had to wait for the F1 grid to pass, that could be the difference between life and death. The FIA have to get there act together when something like this happens

[BARnone]

They didn't stop the race at Monza. CART didn't stop the race at Fontana when Greg Moore was killed. Television viewers in Canada at least were not even aware there was a fatality until the end of the race. I don't think the race should have been stopped.

BARnone.

[Smooth]

these desicions are done well before a race starts. What would stop a race is generally drawn out, and followed. There are cirumstances that may change that, and the desicions rests with the Stewards of the Race, but really they were not so wrong to let the race continue. I wondered about the (even more) compromised safety in that fateful corner, though. The fence looked pretty knackered on TV.

[pRy]

I also believe stopping the race may have been the best option. They should have stopped the race, then started it by running one lap behind the pace car, then letting them roll the start.

Having them run lap after lap was dangerous. Tyre pressures dropped, they where also running across debris at the corner the accident happened. The FIA can talk about saftey, but they obviously forget that running lap after lap behind a saftey car is what caused Ayrton Sennas fatal accident.

I also had a problem with the way the cars would go by an obviously badly injured fan or fans, and the way the cars had to drive past the ambulance. It shows no respect atall. Martin Brundle said on ITV, what a dilema the pace car had, should it not pass, or pass.

IMO the best solution should have been to stop the race, allow the cars to return to the grid. Post a new start time. Allow the teams to check the tyre pressures and also check for debris. When the medical car was off the circuit, the pace car leads them around for one single preperation lap, then they merge into a rolling start, and race is back on.

[CDNgrl]

The right decision was made --- by NOT stopping the race.

[Spot]

I agree. The race should not be stopped. Why set a precedant after all these years?

[SchuMic]

NO!

If it may have change anything for the injured person, I really think they would have done so.

[Paste]

Originally posted by CHRIS500
paste

How would you feel if that was one of your family members that was hurt in the medical car and it had to wait for the F1 grid to pass, that could be the difference between life and death. The FIA have to get there act together when something like this happens

I was not aware of any medical car having to wait for the field to go by. I still stand by my opinion that the race shouldn't have been stopped even if this is the case.

Someone above mentioned precident. In past years, drivers have died and races have gone on, despite the fact that one of the F1 fraternity had been lost. I'm not saying that the life of an F1 driver is any more important, just that it's the same thing: someone died.

I agree that it's definitely tragic that a marshal was killed, but I think the correct decision was taken. I think the FIA handles these tragedies quite well, given the enormity of their task.

[614david]

Apparently, the Marshall was killed almost instantly- nothing they could have done by going any faster was going to save his life, he was already gone when the ambulance pulled away:(
This doesn't have a link to it, or i would put it up here, but it's what was said on BBC this morning- it could be wrong- but being hit by flying tyre at those speeds, i suspect it isn't wrong.

[Ricardo F1]

Personally in the spirit of the rules, etc, no the race should not be stopped in this instance (besides, MS wasn' involved ;) ) - but that said I would prefer to stop the race when any major incident happens. I mean where was the fun in watching them trundle round wasting laps of good racing with fewer cars??

I'm all in favor of stopping races to be honest, I'd rather see a full field racing than a diminished one.

[tifosi]

I agree with Paste (well that's once in 5 years), hindsight is real easy. But I think the right decision was made AT THE TIME. What concerned me more was that later on it looked like the fence was falling down. I hope they had moved everyone away from there.

We've had two incidents now where marshalls are kiled, evidently due to their being in the wrong place (I'm not blaming them, BTW) This at least is what is reported at Monza and Melbourne, that these men had left their positions. Admittadly to get a better view, I would probbaly do the same. Really track side safety has to be handled by the local organizing committee. The tracks are to varied to expect the FIA to handle it.

In the end calling the race or not is the Race Director's call. I was surprsed when the ambulance stopped to let the cars go by, but if he was already dead then I guess he (the driver) felt it would be better to stop. I'm not trying to sound callous, sorry if it does.

I don't see how stopping the race would have made it safer as far as the cars, the tyre temps (therefore pressure) would have dropped even further.

[Dimo]

Elsewhere someone mentioned that the time of death was more than an hour after the accident. The thing you have to remember is that the official time of death is when you are "declared dead", which is different from the time your heart stopped beating, etc.

If you read the following it is apparent that the marshall was dead moments after the accident. It was all over long before the ambulance had to pass the line of F1 cars, as was witnessed by Ralf:

Source: http://www.formula1....1/03/s4746.html

Ralf witnessed marshal's death 05 Mar 2001

BMW WilliamsF1 driver Ralf Schumacher admitted on Monday that he witnessed the tragic death of Graham Beveridge, the race marshal killed during Sunday's Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne.

Speaking to the German newspaper Bild, Michael Schumacher's younger brother revealed how he saw the injured man lying only a few metres away from where his and Jacques Villeneuve's car impacted while entering the circuit's Turn 3.

"I saw him die and it was terrible", he said sadly. "In that precise moment, I had a thousand thoughts in my head. I asked myself if he had a family and hoped that he did not have any kids." When asked if he felt any fear, the German driver acknowledged: "Of course I did. I saw Jacques car flying inches over my head."

Schumacher initially told journalists in Melbourne that he thought a wheel from his own car had killed Beveridge, as he saw it fly over the catch fencing, but the Australian Grand Prix chief, Ron Walker, has since announced that a wheel from Villeneuve's car slipped through a hole in the catch fencing designed to allow marshals access to the track in the case of an emergency.

[GraDee]

I think the comment about the ambulance stopping is a little unfair.

At that point reports hwere of him having "minor injuries". I'm not sure about that though, perhaps his injuries appeared less severe at this point. I don't really know.

They had good intentions though as going by the ambulance meant they were out of it's way.

Nothing sinister about it.

This whole thing about stopping races was weird. It appears as though the marshall did not die on the spot (but I'm unsure) so the race continued. I know it's terrible for a death to ocur but if it happens later on in the medical center it is not effecting the race. They paid their respects once they found out about it by not celebrating on the podium.

[JuanF1]

I think the race should have been stopped. It is a big mistake to keep the cars on the track when there is somebody dying there. Whenever there is a big accident, the race should be stopped (Monza 2000, Imola 94 Lamy-Lehto).
Do you want to know why the race wasn't stopped? Because of TV. Yes, they don't want the coverage to last more than required, becasue money is money and Melrose Place or Benny Hill must be shown at their time. A clear example is ITV, remember when they didn't want to show the US GP because there were more people willing to see soap opera?

Juan Molina

[McSlick]

no

[Mr T]

no

[MattFoster]

no it shouldn't have been, but, the ambulance should have been given priority not the grid on the track

[Chris G.]

The race should be stopped whenever there is the possibility that continuing the race will prevent prompt medical attention to someone injured. In cases where it is undetermintable, the race should be stopped.

As in the US, I would guess that in all countries ambulances don't stop for traffic (it's kinda the other way around). Racing sometimes kills, and that is something I accept - but, when an ambulance stops for traffic, something is wrong.

I'm a MS fan. Stopping the race would not have been ideal for his race. Still, I found it odd that they paced for so many laps, rather than stopping it.

Heck, why not just do a rolling start after the race is stopped. That way no one will get a second chance at a good start, places will be maintained.

[Vetinary]

Yes, due to two reasons :

1. Even if there was only a small chance to speed the marshal's treatment or evacuation by stopping the race, the organisers should have done so.

2. as a spectator, I hardly see the point of running 20% of the race behind the safety car. After all, I can see slowly-moving cars everyday when I get home from the office.

They should have stopped the race, and then start it again behind the safety car for one lap.

[Ray Bell]

When the 300SLR went into the grandstand at LeMans, the organisers were under some pressure to stop the race. Remember, here we had 83 or so killed, hundreds injured (including burns), but their view was that to stop the race would create traffic jams, and the ambulances wouldn't be able to get the injured to hospital.

It is a tough call, sometimes. But rarely does anything change by the race being stopped. So far I haven't seen any of this except for the crash clips. It seems to me that some points need addressing:

1. The fence was not very different after the crash, and no less safe.

2. There's little doubt the guy was dead, and Race Control would have known that within minutes.

3. Checking the tyres would certainly have been a good idea. Perhaps a mandatory pit stop during the pace laps with reassembly in original order and no fuel allowed?

4. Where there is such a long period, stopping the race would be preferable. The clean up is quicker...

[markzed]

The race should not have been stopped, but definitely the ambulance should have had right of way over the field regardless of whether the guy is dead already or not.
The ambulance did stop while the field went by, but there is no reason that it could not have continued along the edge of the track
AND let the cars by.

[baddog]

the ambulance crew and safety coordinators just did what they thought was the safest option, which was NOT to try and stop 18 f1 cars and a pace car or have them try and go at ambulance speeds with all the attendant dangers of another accident. they took the safe option

Shaun

[Witt]

Races should be stopped whenever a serious accident like this happens. After the Italian GP last year i was furious that the race was not stopped, and my opinion on what constitutes a race stoppage has not changed since then.

In both circumstances, A man was dying on the track and drivers are continually passing this scene at low speeds. Not only does this distract the medics at the scene, but it really distracts the drivers.

The problem with keeping the cars going is that marshalls and medics will always feel "obliged" to hurry up whatever they are doing to clear up the scene as the cars constantly remind them that the race is still on every time they pass the scene. The marshalls run the risk of not doing the job properly and missing bits to fix. (debris, fix fences, etc). And that doesn't only go for when somebody is injured, but also an accident we're everybody walks away unharmed. With the added pressure marshalls are under to get the race going as fast as possible, they can often overlook things.

The cars need to stopped completely, the marshals & medics need all the time they need to clear the area, and once the job has been done properly, the race can continue.

I feel deeply sorry for what happened to the marshal last weekend. But to be honest with you, this stinks of Bernie not wanting F1 to interupt tv schedules, imo, and has nothing to do with an injured/dead human being.

[Spot]

As I understand it, the announcement was that the marshall died in hospital. If he was already dead, he would have been announced as dead on arrival.

Where did the ambulance get to when the cars passed it? Did it actually stop (we only saw it move off the track but continue moving) or did it leave the circuit at that point?

[FlagMan]

Stopping the race can often make it more difficult to carry out a rescue - crowds tend to try to get near to the accident scene to see what is going on - which can often hinder rescue personel getting to the incident.

As for the ambulance on the track letting the pack go past - this is standard practice, as it often makes it easier to get the ambulance to its destination - in any case did it actually stop or did it turn off to go straight to a local hospital - there are plans in place for emergency exit points from the circuit for just that sort of eventuality.)

At a permanent circuit the procedure would be to take the casualty to the track medical centre but as this is a temporary circuit - in a well equiped city environment - it would be more probable that the ambulance would have gone directly to the nearest hospital - which would have better facilities than any temporary medical facility at the circuit.

Stopping the pack (especially for F1 cars ) can often result in one or more cars stalling - these then have to be retrieved - which could then hinder any further rescue crews/ambulances from getting to and from the incident scene.

[tifosi]

ChrisG,

Where do you live?! I live in the U.S. too, and as sad as it is, very few people around here would consider stopping for an ambulance. Pathetic I know, but that's the way it is in the DC area. (ah DC maybe that has something to do with it )

Witt, I very seriously doubt if Bernie had a thing to do with it. These decisions are made by the race director (local official). If the race director believed the race needed to be stopped but let Bernie overrule him then he is merely a weak-minded fool, and needs to take responsibility. But like I said I very seriously doubt if Bernie had anything at all to do with the decision. His money comes from rights and he gets it even if the TV stations don't even show th erace.

[FlagMan]

tifosi - a correction on your last statement - for GPs the race director is an FIA appointed permanent position - currently Charlie Whiting - he does of course work in conjuction with the local officials - who have more detailed knowledge of the circuit etc.

[tifosi]

FlagMan,

Thanks for the correction. I would still believe, however that Bernie had nothing to do with any decision to red-flag race, even more so if Charlie Whiting is the man.

Is the race director the same as the "clerk-of-the-course" ?

[FlagMan]

Effectivly the same - its just a more modern term for the same role.

The term Clerk of the Course originates from the old Brooklands days when the 'Jockey Club of Great Britain' ran the original races...

It is now common at a GPs - and increasingly at other top level meetings - to have more than one race director - each one covering one or more of the races - such is the amount of paperwork involved it is too much for a single person to cope with. In addition there would be an overall Race Director responsible for the whole meeting - This would normall be an experienced local official (FIA licensed) nominated by the organising countries ASN . He would cede responsibilty for individual races to the permanent race director for that series - for example where F3000 and Porsche Supercup run as supports for the GP in Europe.

[Rogue]

I have to think that these people in control of such a large event have to have better information than we do. I cannot imagine that anyone would put a life at risk on the basis of "the show must go on", not even in the modern, economic world. As in any extreme situation, I'm sure that medical concerns would take precedence over all others, and if the doctors attending had felt in pertinent, they would have called for the stopping of the race in order for a chopper to land on the track. All things considered, I think the event went the way it should have - I trust the organisers did there job well. That said, there are always (and rightly so) enquiries about this sort of thing, and if there was any wrong doing, the enquiry will bring it to light, and changes will be recommended - that is the best that can happen, speculation is pointless as we do not have full access to the facts.

Regards,

[Bell]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Personally in the spirit of the rules, etc, no the race should not be stopped in this instance (besides, MS wasn' involved ;) ) - but that said I would prefer to stop the race when any major incident happens. I mean where was the fun in watching them trundle round wasting laps of good racing with fewer cars??

I'm all in favor of stopping races to be honest, I'd rather see a full field racing than a diminished one.

Im sorry but is it really apprpriate to make back handed comments about alleged Ferrari favouritism, when a man lies dead? Anyway they didnt stop the race in Austria when Schumacher was taken out did they?

[MattB]

I don't want to second guess what was done, but rather address what should be done in the future. I believe that if an incident occurs like the one at Monza last season or Australia this season, in which fans, marshalls, or drivers are seriously injured the race should be stopped, attended to, then the emergency crews can regroup, track safety can be examined, then everyone can go racing again. There was so much debris that so many drivers ran through. When you look at the replays there is an incredible amount of material all over the track and this can become a potential danger for drivers, marshals and fans.

[Clatter]

Yes the race should have been stopped.

1) When someone is injured and safety workers are on the track trying to extricate them the last thing you want is a train of cars going round at 70 or 80 MPH. They should not have to constantly watch their backs to see if they are on the way round.

2) With an accident that big there is a huge amount of debris on the track. Shards of carbon can be picked up and could later cause a major blowout and even bigger accident. The track should be cleaned up first.

3) I want to see racing not a parade.