65 replies to this topic

[kosmos]

Quote

Hamilton reportedly overtook pole sitter Sebastian Vettel twice on the pre-race warm-up lap, a practice that is not allowed.

And Spaniard Alonso also broke the rules by accepting the Spanish flag from a marshal on the slowing down lap, after thrilling the partisan crowd by winning.

http://www.f1sa.com/...c...&Itemid=157

[Markn93]

Does it mean off the line? Because that happens all the time and they just filter back in.

[Starlight]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is wrong with accepting a flag from the marshal?

[Markn93]

Starlight, on Jul 6 2012, 08:48, said:

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is wrong with accepting a flag from the marshal?

Nothing, look at Hamilton in Canada.

[cooper]

kosmos, on Jul 6 2012, 08:43, said:

http://www.f1sa.com/...c...&Itemid=157

Who cares, people escape penalties all the time.. it was last weekend, in the past.. A new race weekend for plenty more F1 action to happen

[zk12]

Starlight, on Jul 6 2012, 08:48, said:

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is wrong with accepting a flag from the marshal?

nothing. some try to construe dangerous issues into it.

[Starlight]

Markn93, on Jul 6 2012, 15:49, said:

Nothing, look at Hamilton in Canada.

Which I remember clearly as well. So unless that was also punishable?

[Markn93]

Starlight, on Jul 6 2012, 08:50, said:

Which I remember clearly as well. So unless that was also punishable?

Maybe his team member gave it to him rather than a steward? Either way it's madness on the FIA's part and thank goodnesss neither instances warranted a penalty.

I think it says alot that no team 'realised' that these were protestable incidents.

[Cesc]

Thank God nobody claimed for it, because in a moment full of penalties and so, trying to justify to the fans penalties for such actions would have been difficult...

[Zava]

in hindsight I don't think there's a problem with these, as Hamilton's penalty (if penalised) was rendered void (or was brought to you ) by Maldonado, and seriously, any reslut changing penalty for accepting a flag is ridiculous.

[NJB13]

Starlight, on Jul 6 2012, 15:50, said:

Which I remember clearly as well. So unless that was also punishable?

Technically after the chequered flag a driver cannot accept anything from any person and, if the car cannot make it to park after the flag it must be handed to marshal who are responsible for getting the car back.

[undersquare]

Lol, this is going to be added to a few lovingly tended databases

And how has the 'Lewis crowned bad guy' story not got a thread going yet? . I guess it's not breakfast time yet in Nova Scotia .

[tifosiMac]

Both rather trivial incidents that would have attracted a lot of negitivity from fans had they been punished IMO.

[rdebourbon]

NJB13, on Jul 6 2012, 09:00, said:

Technically after the chequered flag a driver cannot accept anything from any person and, if the car cannot make it to park after the flag it must be handed to marshal who are responsible for getting the car back.

AFAIK - This is a generally accepted behavior in any minimum weight classified racing series.. There have been cases in the past of drivers slipping lead weights into pockets after celebrations with "random" people..

Its merely to keep things easy and simple for the stewards.. but it sure does sterilize the after race celebrations...

[Starlight]

rdebourbon, on Jul 6 2012, 16:09, said:

AFAIK - This is a generally accepted behavior in any minimum weight classified racing series.. There have been cases in the past of drivers slipping lead weights into pockets after celebrations with "random" people..

Its merely to keep things easy and simple for the stewards.. but it sure does sterilize the after race celebrations...

Thanks for the info, it makes sense.

[Kvothe]

undersquare, on Jul 6 2012, 09:01, said:

Lol, this is going to be added to a few lovingly tended databases

And how has the 'Lewis crowned bad guy' story not got a thread going yet? . I guess it's not breakfast time yet in Nova Scotia .

[chrisblades85]

Starlight, on Jul 6 2012, 08:48, said:

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is wrong with accepting a flag from the marshal?

The FIA scorn at drivers entertaining the crowd. Hence why donuts aren't allowed, celebrating wildly with the team after a race, being 2 seconds late on the podium etc. Accepting a Spaninsh flag in a Spanish race, where the crowd may be happy with that is disgraceful from Alonso. And should be booted out of F1.

[WTGL]

Not surprised AT ALL. F1's worst ever offenders let off scott-free. How is negligence ever going to fix these driver's inability to follow the rules???

[BigCHrome]

FIA should get a penalty for being so horrible.

Edited by BigCHrome, 06 July 2012 - 08:23.

[wingwalker]

<waiting for 'Hamilton's car would have been underweight without the flag in Valencia' threads>

[flyer121]

Starlight, on Jul 6 2012, 07:48, said:

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is wrong with accepting a flag from the marshal?

Alonso was underweight ... marshalls slipped a few dozen pebble in his pocket

[flyer121]

undersquare, on Jul 6 2012, 08:01, said:

Lol, this is going to be added to a few lovingly tended databases

And how has the 'Lewis crowned bad guy' story not got a thread going yet? . I guess it's not breakfast time yet in Nova Scotia .

Guess Halifax is busy .. let me do the honors

I m wondering if Hamilton overtaking Seb during the warm up lap had anything to do with Vettel's engine failure ....

Edited by flyer121, 06 July 2012 - 08:35.

[Kvothe]

flyer121, on Jul 6 2012, 09:34, said:

Guess Halifax is busy .. let me do the honors

I m wondering if Hamilton overtaking Seb during the warm up lap had anything to do with Vettel's engine failure ....

I've seen video evidence which suggests he may have touched it with his front wing.

Edited by Kvothe, 06 July 2012 - 08:40.

[ayali]

If this is true then Vettel and Red Bull are to blame for not bringing this to the attention of the stewards and lodging a protest.
Funny also because had Lewis got a DT penalty he probably would not have crashed out with Maldonado and possibly scored some useful points.

Alonso's actions would at most gotten him a fine and/or a reprimand, no big deal

[wonk123]

Excuse my very bad memory, but didn't Schumacher get a black flag for passing on the warm up lap, sometime in the mid 90's?? I wasn't a Schumi fan back then (or now) but remember it seemed very harsh.

[Diablobb81]

I would love to see the tears of Schumacher haters.

[BigWicks]

wonk123, on Jul 6 2012, 09:56, said:

Excuse my very bad memory, but didn't Schumacher get a black flag for passing on the warm up lap, sometime in the mid 90's?? I wasn't a Schumi fan back then (or now) but remember it seemed very harsh.

Incorrect. He was given a 10s stop go penalty, which he refused to serve, and that is what he was black flagged for. 1994 British GP.

[wonk123]

BigWicks, on Jul 6 2012, 18:59, said:

Incorrect. He was given a 10s stop go penalty, which he refused to serve, and that is what he was black flagged for. 1994 British GP.

But the stop go penalty was for overtaking on the warm up lap? 1994 is a bit of a blur for me

[flyer121]

wonk123, on Jul 6 2012, 09:05, said:

But the stop go penalty was for overtaking on the warm up lap? 1994 is a bit of a blur for me

Yeah but He wasnt black flagged for overtake on warm up lap...

he was given stop go for that ... he was black flagged because he didnt serve it - There s a difference.

I thought the Stop Go was harsh (probably all the Schumi hate going around) but when he refused to take it , Black Flag was a fair decision.

You cant have drivers simply ignore Steward decisions !!

[Imperial]

Maybe it sterilise the post-race celebrations, but it took time to make F1 a relatively fair sport and keeping people away from the driver and car is one way to keep it fair. Charlie Whiting tolerates the hugging in parc ferme, even though it's strictly not allowed.

There are some amazing stories in F1's history of trickery used to get underweight cars past inspection.

[Raelene]

te team told him to stay out whilst they disputed the penalty due to the incorrect rule being cited and the time limit expiring. it was just an excuse to tighten the championship up anyway.

[Tarzaan]

Starlight, on Jul 6 2012, 09:48, said:

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is wrong with accepting a flag from the marshal?

It's not allowed since 94...

[DS27]

Raelene, on Jul 6 2012, 10:16, said:

te team told him to stay out whilst they disputed the penalty due to the incorrect rule being cited and the time limit expiring. it was just an excuse to tighten the championship up anyway.

funny how the facts get lost and people remember this as MS ignored the drive through as though it was purely his decision. The team told him to stay out as they were protesting the penalty - what driver on the grid is going to come in, in that situation (the answer is none of them).

Edited by DS27, 06 July 2012 - 09:26.

[Tarzaan]

BigWicks, on Jul 6 2012, 10:59, said:

Incorrect. He was given a 10s stop go penalty, which he refused to serve, and that is what he was black flagged for. 1994 British GP.

The 10 stop & go penalty was agaist the rules in thoose times. The only legal penalty to MS would be a start from the lat place, but the Stewards miss the opurtunity to do this, so there was no legal way to penalise Schumi then.

But if he had, the rules said in thoose times that the stewards has only 25 minutes from any rule braking to take any legal action. After the 25 minutes there was no way to any penalty.

In 94 Britain the only legal sanction against MS would be a new warm-up lap and a start from the last place.

The stewards might know this because they withdraw their black flag within minutes.

Anf IMHO the black flag comes first, and then comes the 5 sec stop & go (which also was illegal from the stewards), bacause the stewards realize their mistakes.


+1: in those race there was 2 more driver who overtook in the warm-up lap. In 2003 Raikonnen also overtook RS in the warm-up lap. Neither of them had given any penalty...

Edited by Tarzaan, 06 July 2012 - 09:38.

[prty]

In theory it is punishable the flag thing yes. I think it was Massa in Brazil 2006 the first one who broke the rule, and went unpunished. So that set the precedent.

[Fastcake]

Wow these are some serious offences by those drivers, and to compensate for the lack of penalties they should both be banned for life from even thinking about F1.

[Imperial]

Fastcake, on Jul 6 2012, 10:48, said:

Wow these are some serious offences by those drivers, and to compensate for the lack of penalties they should both be banned for life from even thinking about F1.

Ha ha, this thread is a bit OTT, but if they are offences contrary to the rules I guess it's fair game for discussion.

This is partly what irks longtime fans and makes forums like this be full of angry fanboys, because you literally have no clue from race to race as to what will result in a penalty, reprimand or be ignored completely.

The Alonso-related rule has to stay though, because it governs what is a weight-mandated formula. Take that away and it will be back to cars mysteriously finishing races heavier than when they begun.

[Niceone]

1) If rules say they should have gotten penalty. Then they should have gotten one..simple as that
2) If rules say they should have gotten penalties for those things..then those rules are stupid.

Edited by Niceone, 06 July 2012 - 10:06.

[Rob]

Tarzaan, on Jul 6 2012, 10:34, said:

The stewards might know this because they withdraw their black flag within minutes.

You're not un-disqualified if a black flag is withdrawn. It just means they've given up trying to reason with you.

[Skinnyguy]

This is worse than these "absurd laws in the USA" shows...

[Nycco]

They should just remove penalties. This is racing you must be on the limit and sometimes beyond otherwise it's boring.

[smitten]

Nycco, on Jul 6 2012, 11:24, said:

They should just remove penalties. This is racing you must be on the limit and sometimes beyond otherwise it's boring.

Yeah - great idea.

No penalty for over-capacity engines, or cutting corners, or ramming opponents, etc etc etc. F1 would be sooooo much better

[flyer121]

Raelene, on Jul 6 2012, 09:16, said:

te team told him to stay out whilst they disputed the penalty due to the incorrect rule being cited and the time limit expiring. it was just an excuse to tighten the championship up anyway.

I m not saying it was Schumi's idea ... but whoever ignored the rule cant be punished ... the driver is the only one who can be punished.

And protesting business is crap and shouldnt even be allowed in race situations ... especially with time limit expiring.!! Its a time wasting trick ...

Schumi made a mistake and got a pen - serve it or get a harsher one ... so entirely justifiable as far as I see ... teams or drivers shouldnt be taking law unto their hands ever.

Of course , they should be able to log in complaints to FIA later on even though its hardly going to give them the race back

[sharo]

Since 1994 Silverstone I've kept watching carefully every formation lap. There have been many cases of one driver jumping ahead of the one in front for various reasons. No one has ever been punished, even investigated.
But I see idiotism is again starting to prevail ...

[Tarzaan]

Rob, on Jul 6 2012, 12:12, said:

You're not un-disqualified if a black flag is withdrawn. It just means they've given up trying to reason with you.

No.

They change the penalty to a stop & go.

You cant give a stop & go to a disqualified driver.

But in that situation both penalty was against the rules. The stewards shouldn't get any penalty for MS after the start. They had the rigt to give a penalty before the start, but doesn't after the start.

Edited by Tarzaan, 06 July 2012 - 11:15.

[uffen]

The penalty for "accepting a flag" is actually that you cannot stop your car. Unless there is a technical fault the driver is not supposed to stop the car on the "victory" lap. Alonso clearly stopped the car when he accepted the flag. I guess they don't want cars stopping because people tend to gather around it and there are other cars still circulating, and, as we know, even a slow F1 car is going pretty quickly.

[ClubmanGT]

Surely the flag thing is a to make sure the weight of the driver and car is the same as it was during the race.

[OO7]

uffen, on Jul 6 2012, 12:14, said:

The penalty for "accepting a flag" is actually that you cannot stop your car. Unless there is a technical fault the driver is not supposed to stop the car on the "victory" lap. Alonso clearly stopped the car when he accepted the flag. I guess they don't want cars stopping because people tend to gather around it and there are other cars still circulating, and, as we know, even a slow F1 car is going pretty quickly.

Yes. In Canada by comparison, Lewis didn't stop the car to receive the Union Jack, he just slowed down significantly.

[OO7]

ClubmanGT, on Jul 6 2012, 12:19, said:

Surely the flag thing is a to make sure the weight of the driver and car is the same as it was during the race.

Correct.

[spacekid]

sharo, on Jul 6 2012, 12:09, said:

Since 1994 Silverstone I've kept watching carefully every formation lap. There have been many cases of one driver jumping ahead of the one in front for various reasons. No one has ever been punished, even investigated.
But I see idiotism is again starting to prevail ...

I've seen it to, and thankfully no one has been stupid enough to try to apply a penalty for it since then. This is a good thing

Silverstone '94 was a farce.

I enjoyed seeing Alonso celebrating with the fans, it was good to see a spontaneous moment of emotion.

Edited by spacekid, 06 July 2012 - 11:33.