24 replies to this topic

[petestenning]

Looking at a recent programme i purchased there is an unusual entry in the Saloon car race.

No 146 David Cox , [sure this name is familar ] the car Hillman Inp /Engine size = 1495

Anybody know of this car and would that likely to be Coventry Climax in it ?

Dont think you can make an Imp engine that large 1150 maybe but not 1500 cc.

If it helps the meeting was run by Rochester Motor Club.

[AAGR]

No way would that car have the original engine block in it. 875cc was production, 998cc was for Rallye Imps, and 1150cc was possible, for racing, with a great deal of work - but absolutely no more was possible.

A larger-type (Coventry-Climax FWB ?), would be physically too large to fit in that rear compartment.

So, it would have to be another engine transplant - which could have been one of many other makes.

AAGR

[Gregor Marshall]

If it helps the meeting was run by Rochester Motor Club.

RMC ran a lot of the races at Brands so I don't think it makers much difference.
If you can let me know what year it is I'll have a look and see if I have any Autosports or MNs that might cover it and add info.

[Stephen W]

RMC ran a lot of the races at Brands so I don't think it makers much difference.
If you can let me know what year it is I'll have a look and see if I have any Autosports or MNs that might cover it and add info.

Also let us know the date to help in the search!

[Vitesse2]

RMC ran a lot of the races at Brands so I don't think it makers much difference.
If you can let me know what year it is I'll have a look and see if I have any Autosports or MNs that might cover it and add info.

Also let us know the date to help in the search!

The subtitle at the top of the page that says "Feb 1970" would be a bit of a clue!!

I'm not sure Graham's point about engine bays is valid though - surely you could do just about anything to a Special Saloon as long as it conformed to what passed for safety at the time? Which probably just meant moving the firewall. A mid-engined Imp might have been a bit less tail-happy too.

[2F-001]

This may add confusion rather than solution, but Autosport's report and results for that meeting make no mention of Mr Cox.
He is referred to in the reports of two sprint meetings at Brands earlier in the same month - in both cases running an Imp in the up to 1-litre class.
(I wonder if this might have been a projected engine transplant that didn't come to fruition?)

1970 pre-dates the relatively wide-spread use of spaceframes and S2000-style monocoques in special saloons, when mid-engine and inline configurations opened the way for a bigger variety of engine swaps. That might suggest a particular type of engine that would fit (or a wholesale rebuild, sufficiently adventurous to have made the Club News in its own right?).

[Stephen W]

The subtitle at the top of the page that says "Feb 1970" would be a bit of a clue!!

True but seeing as there are FIVE issues of Autosport that the report could be in I just thought the inclusion of the precise date would have helped.

[petestenning]

Date is 22nd February 1971

It is entered in class a over 1300 cc , in the saloon car race over 1000 cc last race of the day , event 7 .

Edited by petestenning, 12 July 2012 - 18:14.

[RS2000]

Being in an over 1300 class greatly reduces the possibility of the capacity being a misprint.
Very large numbers of misprints in programmes etc. at all levels involve cubic capacity. Only the other day I was reminded that not only did a 350GT Mustang compete in the 1966 RAC Rally (crazy enough in itself) but it was 1427cc......

Edited by RS2000, 12 July 2012 - 20:28.

[D-Type]

Take the class with caution. In some sprints and hillclimbs you could enter your car in its proper class and also in the one above - eg running a 1.5 litre car in the 1.1-1.5 litre class and the 1.5-2 litre class

[RS2000]

Take the class with caution. In some sprints and hillclimbs you could enter your car in its proper class and also in the one above - eg running a 1.5 litre car in the 1.1-1.5 litre class and the 1.5-2 litre class

Not "legally" ie. without changing something other than the capacity on the entry form (like the heater fan that "supercharged" the Alan Mann race Escort). Clamped down on later on (eg. when one hillclimb threw kit cars in with 1400-1800 saloons, one Sunbeam suddenly grew a "Brazillian" block to put it in the over 1800 class, where there happened to be no Caterhams etc. that day).

Edited by RS2000, 12 July 2012 - 22:09.

[pete53]

The subtitle at the top of the page that says "Feb 1970" would be a bit of a clue!!

I'm not sure Graham's point about engine bays is valid though - surely you could do just about anything to a Special Saloon as long as it conformed to what passed for safety at the time? Which probably just meant moving the firewall. A mid-engined Imp might have been a bit less tail-happy too.

Indeed, let's not forget Jonathan Buncombe's "Hillman Imp" built on a Chevron chassis with 2 litre FVD engine. Mind you, the car was eventually outlawed as it was considered to be stretching the already liberal regulations a bit too far.

[petestenning]

Surely in 1970 we had not got to the stage of Special Saloons ie as in big engine sports cars with saloon bodies ,

So i think it would be a normal Imp with a different engine.

I know of a Ginetta G15 which had a Alfasud Engine, although it was later than 1970 .

I also think that in 1970 the cars would still have been basic bodies with engine changes etc , like the V8 Mk 1 Cortina's etc.

[RCH]

Supercharger springs to mind, although the quoted capacity doesn't tie in with the normal 1.4 times the capacity supercharged rule. Maybe even a device to enter the same car in 2 different races, normal 998 up to 1000cc. and then add a "hairdrier" for larger capacity race? Otherwise a number of different engines have been stuffed into Imps over the years, usually mounted the "wrong" way round to create a mid engined design, would that have been acceptable in 1970? I have heard of a pre-cross flow Ford and, bizarrely, a Renault 16 engined device. Both mounted out back.

[Teddie2003]

Looking at a recent programme i purchased there is an unusual entry in the Saloon car race.

No 146 David Cox , [sure this name is familar ] the car Hillman Inp /Engine size = 1495

Anybody know of this car and would that likely to be Coventry Climax in it ?

Dont think you can make an Imp engine that large 1150 maybe but not 1500 cc.

If it helps the meeting was run by Rochester Motor Club.

Ian Carter and a couple of others could make Imp engines at about 1200cc, by juggling the way the liners were fitted and using long throw cranks and spacers.

Nowdays Rodwell Motorsport has started work on a 1200cc engine using longer rods and a thicker special dowled spacer between the block and the head.

But 1200cc range is about the biggest imp based engine.

Depending where the engine was fitted, some of the special saloon mini's ran mini blocks with Imp heads, so possibly a big bore block might have been fitted in the back?

[doc knutsen]

Ian Carter and a couple of others could make Imp engines at about 1200cc, by juggling the way the liners were fitted and using long throw cranks and spacers.

Nowdays Rodwell Motorsport has started work on a 1200cc engine using longer rods and a thicker special dowled spacer between the block and the head.

But 1200cc range is about the biggest imp based engine.

Depending where the engine was fitted, some of the special saloon mini's ran mini blocks with Imp heads, so possibly a big bore block might have been fitted in the back?

Several Special Saloons Minis were indeed fitted with Imp engines, but to the best of my knowledge it would not be practical to fit the Imp cyl head onto the A-series engine block. Probably the most successful was Ginger Marshall's cars, which included the Reliant Kitten of the early Eighties. Bigger engines were also fitted on the Mini gearbox, notably the Peter Baldwin BDH-engined spaceframe Mini.
Proper Special Saloons were a hive of ingenuity. They are much missed.

[Teddie2003]

Several Special Saloons Minis were indeed fitted with Imp engines, but to the best of my knowledge it would not be practical to fit the Imp cyl head onto the A-series engine block. Probably the most successful was Ginger Marshall's cars, which included the Reliant Kitten of the early Eighties. Bigger engines were also fitted on the Mini gearbox, notably the Peter Baldwin BDH-engined spaceframe Mini.
Proper Special Saloons were a hive of ingenuity. They are much missed.

Hi Doc,

In the late 80's early 90's on the south west hills there was a white spaceframe Mini that ran a Mini block with Imp head set up in the same up to 1300cc class as the "normal" spaceframed mini's. I remember have a good look at it at Tregrehan and Werrington. Only one I've ever seen with that set up.

Edited by Teddie2003, 16 July 2012 - 00:54.

[carlt]

Hi Doc,

In the late 80's early 90's on the south west hills there was a white spaceframe Mini that ran a Mini block with Imp head set up in the same up to 1300cc class as the "normal" spaceframed mini's. I remember have a good look at it at Tregrehan and Werrington. Only one I've ever seen with that set up.

Steve Baker [chosen engineering] has mentioned his old man doing an imp head on the 'A' series

[bradbury west]

No way would that car have the original engine block in it. 875cc was production, 998cc was for Rallye Imps, and 1150cc was possible, for racing, with a great deal of work - but absolutely no more was possible.
A larger-type (Coventry-Climax FWB ?), would be physically too large to fit in that rear compartment.
So, it would have to be another engine transplant - which could have been one of many other makes.
AAGR

Not quite so, I fear, Graham. I know of at least 3 people who ran FWEs in Imps in period. The FWB block was basically the same as the FWA/FWE. The FPF was a different beast altogether but around 1970 they would just be old Climax engines I suspect, so nothing can be ruled out.
BTW, the question of various Imp engine sizes has been well covered in the thread about alleged Imp 5 bearing blocks.
http://forums.autosp...;hl=Hillman Imp
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 21 July 2012 - 23:24.

[AAGR]

Not quite so, I fear, Graham. I know of at least 3 people who ran FWEs in Imps in period. The FWB block was basically the same as the FWA/FWE. The FPF was a different beast altogether but around 1970 they would just be old Climax engines I suspect, so nothing can be ruled out.
BTW, the question of various Imp engine sizes has been well covered in the thread about alleged Imp 5 bearing blocks.
http://forums.autosp...;hl=Hillman Imp
Roger Lund

I'm feeling amiable, so I will only point out that the Hillman Imp production block was very different from any Coventry-Climax engine from which it was descended. The capacities I quote - 875, 998 and 1150cc - are all well-known for Hillman-Imp-based blocks. I repeat that, as far as I know, 1,150cc was the absolute limit for the Hillman-Imp-based blocks, which were not related to the FWs at all ....

How do I know ? Well, does it help when I say that I was already working as an engineer, then motoring writer, in Coventry at the time .... ?

AAGR

[GMACKIE]

Well, does it help when I say that I was already working as an engineer, then motoring writer, in Coventry at the time .... ?

AAGR

Did you choose to go.....or were you sent there?

[D-Type]

The Imp engine was definitely derived from a Climax design. At least, every history of the car says so. It wasn't the FPE (Godiva) or FPF. If it wasn't the FW* series, then what Climax engine was it developed from?

[RS2000]

"How big can an Imp engine be" doesn't really advance answering the question first posed. I guess the only way to do so is find someone associated with the car in period.
1495 could be a misprint for 1498 and a pre-crossflow Ford, although one of those would probaly have been bored out to 1650 or so, especially if the class was simply "over 1300".
However, despite the current popularity for reviving them, I've always hated Special Saloons with a vengence, not so much in racing but in speed events where, until 1991, a "unitary construction" car faced plastic bodied sports racing cars as the only MSA recognised "saloon" classes.

Edited by RS2000, 23 July 2012 - 16:00.

[RCH]

The Imp engine was definitely derived from a Climax design. At least, every history of the car says so. It wasn't the FPE (Godiva) or FPF. If it wasn't the FW* series, then what Climax engine was it developed from?

FWMA

FWM was a still born small capacity (650cc?) marine engine version of the FW. The FWMA was the 750cc. unit used by Lotus to win the Index at Le Mans in 1957. The engine was physically smaller than the more familiar FW variants.

I'm surprised at AAGR, particularly after his superb book "Rootes Maestros"

Edited to say I think I see what Graham means now, the Imp block is smaller than the familiar FW variants and therefore not derived from them as such. Incidentally iy was by putting 2 FWMAs together that they arived at the FWMV.

Edited by RCH, 23 July 2012 - 16:08.

[bradbury west]

I'm feeling amiable, so I will only point out that the Hillman Imp production block was very different from any Coventry-Climax engine from which it was descended. The capacities I quote - 875, 998 and 1150cc - are all well-known for Hillman-Imp-based blocks. I repeat that, as far as I know, 1,150cc was the absolute limit for the Hillman-Imp-based blocks, which were not related to the FWs at all .... How do I know ? Well, does it help when I say that I was already working as an engineer, then motoring writer, in Coventry at the time .... ? AAGR

Your amiability is credit-worthy. It matches my own geniality. My point about the FWA/E in Imps was to point out that re-engineering did take place, rather akin to the FWA in the Dauphine done elsewhere. I am not aware that I made any suggestion that the engines were related physically, although genealogically so. The capacity options are well known from mix and match with bores, overbores and strokes. As I pointed out on the thread to which I linked, Nathan did in fact also produce an 850cc version later for US sedan racing.

My own research needs have ensured that I have made myself familiar enough with the origins, history, development and versions of the Imp engine, and its derivation from the Climax units, as well as studying also as an enthusiast the various Climax engines. In all of the matters I have found Leo Kuzmicki's paper on the history and productionising of the Climax design for the Imp very informative, along with Wally Hassan's paper to the SAE in Cleveland, Ohio where it covers the small engines, as well as his book Climax in Coventry, along with Des Hamill's definitive history of Climax racing engines.
I have also spoken to various people who worked on race development of Imp power units in period.
Roger Lund