32 replies to this topic

[jeffbee]

He drove for the UDT Laystall team in 1962 in a customer spec Lotus 24, with a BRM V8. Throughout the year he was pretty equal to his team mate, Innes Ireland, and even won a minor non championship F1 race. The team was restructured at the end of the year and emerged in 1963 as BRP, although it was essentially the same team. However MG had been replaced by Jim Hall who, with the best will in the world, wasn't as quick.

Does anyone know why MG was replaced? Was it a falling out or simply that Jim Hall came with plenty of cash?

[Tim Murray]

Michael J Cox (TNF's 'Joe Fan') in his biography of Masten obviously looked into this, but could only conclude that it was for unknown reasons. He spoke to Jim Hall, who said that he didn't recall anything negative being said about Masten while he was with BRP, and felt the decision may have been taken because the team was short of funds.

[jeffbee]

Michael J Cox (TNF's 'Joe Fan') in his biography of Masten obviously looked into this, but could only conclude that it was for unknown reasons. He spoke to Jim Hall, who said that he didn't recall anything negative being said about Masten while he was with BRP, and felt the decision may have been taken because the team was short of funds.

13 minutes and a reply!!! Pretty good.

Thanks for the response. My own view has always been that the team needed cash and that Jim Hall had plenty of it.

[nicanary]

Michael J Cox (TNF's 'Joe Fan') in his biography of Masten obviously looked into this, but could only conclude that it was for unknown reasons. He spoke to Jim Hall, who said that he didn't recall anything negative being said about Masten while he was with BRP, and felt the decision may have been taken because the team was short of funds.

That suggests that Jim Hall brought funds with him. I'd have thought that at this point Hall would have been pretty involved with the Chaparral project, and that the F1 drive would have diverted him from his main objects. I'm surprised that he went to spend considerable time in Europe, away from the sports-car development. A bit of an odd career move.

[RA Historian]

But well documented. I just read all about this move to F-1 and back by Hall in Pete Lyon's column in a recent issue of Vintage Racecar magazine. Pete explains it well.

[Ray Bell]

While Hall's Chaparrals were certainly operating at the time, it's also the case that the Can-Am series was still a few years away and the importance of those races (of which the main ones were concentrated towards the end of the F1 season) was not so great.

I would reckon that Hall also figured on learning a lot technically from a term in F1.

[Stephen W]

That suggests that Jim Hall brought funds with him.

Is it possible that Gregory was a paid driver and Hall either wanted less money or didn't take a fee? After all if his primary objective was to get the low-down on F1 that would have probably been the cheapest way.

[kayemod]

Is it possible that Gregory was a paid driver and Hall either wanted less money or didn't take a fee? After all if his primary objective was to get the low-down on F1 that would have probably been the cheapest way.

I suspect that's largely true. I recently re-read Managing a Legend, the biography of Ken Gregory who ran BRP, and slightly surprisingly, it sheds no light at all on this matter. It does say however that Masten was permanently skint, he quit racing to become of all things a diamond trader in Rome, and the book eventually dismisses both him and Jim Hall as "best suited to sports cars". It's a fact that neither achieved a great deal while racing for BRP, though Masten rather more than his replacement.

[nicanary]

Whilst reading the Tony Brooks autobiography, I was struck by the relatively good performances by Gregory in the 1959 season when Cooper were often running a 3-car team. He seemed to be easily capable of mixing-it with the top runners, and usually out-performed the young Bruce Mclaren. His injuries from the Tojeiro crash put paid to a decent drive for the next season.

So I wouldn't have dismissed him as "just a sports-car driver", as BRP appeared to have done. His subsequent drives in a Centro-Sud Cooper-Maserati were hardly in top=line machinery.

[kayemod]

So I wouldn't have dismissed him as "just a sports-car driver", as BRP appeared to have done.

If like Ken Gregory, the main focus of your working existence is managing Stirling, I suppose almost anyone else would be "Just a sports car driver".

[nicanary]

If like Ken Gregory, the main focus of your working existence is managing Stirling, I suppose almost anyone else would be "Just a sports car driver".

Well said.

[Allan Lupton]

If like Ken Gregory, the main focus of your working existence is managing Stirling, I suppose almost anyone else would be "Just a sports car driver".

Just don't turn over flat stones.

[Sisyphus]

I'd argue you could just as well say BRP were "just a sports car team". They had more success with their Lotus 19 than they achieved in F1, I'd say.

But then I'm a Masten Gregory fan--he was certainly brave and quick on his day. And he was from Kansas City near where I grew up so was the local hero.

[Ray Bell]

I'm pretty sure we had a discussion previously (maybe during 2000?) about Masten's dismissal from the Cooper team in 1959...

From memory, the suggestion was that Black Jack didn't want him around because he was a threat. Countering that, Jack's first thought when discussing Masten was that he once tried to kill him (Portugal) - not a literal comment - and that he once saved his life - 1964 Indianapolis.

[Doug Nye]

I'm pretty sure we had a discussion previously (maybe during 2000?) about Masten's dismissal from the Cooper team in 1959...

From memory, the suggestion was that Black Jack didn't want him around because he was a threat. Countering that, Jack's first thought when discussing Masten was that he once tried to kill him (Portugal) - not a literal comment - and that he once saved his life - 1964 Indianapolis.

Quite right - the suggestion that Blackie didn't want Masten around because he saw him as a threat was hardly worth serious consideration. By 1959 Cooper Cars was effectively Jack's team - he had significant technical input and was consistently their fastest and most effective driver. Jack regarded Masten with considerable respect, and not one jot of anxiety...except when on his hands and knees in the middle of that Portuguese roadway.

DCN

[RJE]

I was always a great fan of Masten Gregory and his push on style in what was usually very out dated vehicles.

However like many drivers of his ilk he was at times capable of quite brilliant drives even in F1 and I seem to recall that until the clutch broke he ran away from a class field, from pole position, at the 1959 Aintree 200 when he was at Coopers and I assume had an equal car.

Jim Hall it would appear came to the GP circus to learn what he could and a quick look at first incarnation of the Chaparral 2 suspension will show a near if not exact copy of a contemorary Lotus. I assume that Hall brought money to the team in his quest.

[ddmichael]

There are a few old threads on here regarding Masten, but having just finished 'The Maverick' by Patrick Sinibaldi and having read Michael J. Cox's 'Totally Fearless' when it first came out, there are a few questions regarding his departure from Cooper at the end of '59. IMHO there's no doubting that Masten was the all-out quickest of the three drivers that year, but that without Jack's mechanical know-how he could not have performed so well. It's a good few years since I read 'Totally Fearless' so can't recall if the incident was referred to there, but Sinibaldi says that Charles Cooper saw Masten's stash of vitamin pills (perhaps that's not all they were) and the relationship cooled thereafter. I've just re-read Doug Nye's Cooper Cars book, but there's no reference to the incident. Can anyone - Doug himself, perhaps - shed any light on this incident and whether the perception of Masten as a drug-taker had an adverse effect on his subsequent Grand Prix career prospects? Doug's quote from John Cooper that 'he was very upset...' upon hearing that his contract would not be renewed left me feeling rather sorry for a driver who surely deserved a couple of Championship wins to his name. I'd also be interested to hear what Charles, John and Jack had to say about the fearless 'Kansas City Flash', as he sounds like a very interesting character.

 

The initial question on this thread regarding his departure from BRP appears to have been down to Jim Hall's ability to contribute financially to the team and that, sadly, proved the final nail in the coffin of Masten's front-line career. Had Reg Parnell not passed away things might have been different, but that's another story...

 

DM

[Eric Dunsdon]

Masten always appeared blindingly quick if a little 'on the edge' at times perhaps. I was something of a fan and there was also the chance of having him join you at the trackside during a race!.

[Sisyphus]

I have Cox's book but haven't read Sinibaldi.  How well does he document the "vitamin pill" claim?  That's not very a fair implication without proof.

 

What Cox says basically is that (referencing a Sept 1973 Competition Car interview with John Cooper):  "... it was Jack Brabham who suggested that a three-car team would be too much for the 1960 season.  Cooper agreed with Brabham and said that it was "a pity" to let Masten go.

 

That sounds like a reasonable decision to me.  Masten missed the USGP which Bruce won because of injuries from his TT crash.  That would certainly have raised Bruce's stock.  Bruce was only 23 (but Masten only 28...), with more of a mechanical aptitude, and probably fit better personality wise with Jack.  All those points seem to make choosing to drop Masten for 1960 to be reasonable on that basis although unfortunate for him.

 

DCN is quoted in Cox (page 99):  "Masten was a foreigner, he was well liked in this country and well respected, but he was a monied man regarded as a potential customer, a deal arranger, not a mechanical man...not a kindred spirit.  He would not be expected to pitch-in with the lads and draw raw tube from the metal store and weld-up his own chassis frame, and two weeks later have built his own car.  Both Jack and Bruce could do that and did."

 

I was a fan, too--Masten was from KC near where I grew up and also wore thick glasses so had to cheer for him!

[Collombin]

Masten's drive in the 1965 Indy 500 is somewhat legendary, but what are the facts?

How many places did he make up in how many laps?

[Roger Clark]

 IMHO there's no doubting that Masten was the all-out quickest of the three drivers that year, ...

What is the evidence of that?

[opplock]

Masten always appeared blindingly quick if a little 'on the edge' at times perhaps. I was something of a fan and there was also the chance of having him join you at the trackside during a race!.

 

In the days before sponsors paid the bills surely Cooper were wise to retain two drivers who were capable of winning Grands Prix, unlikely to join the spectators and capable of repairing any damage they did do to the team's cars.  

[D28]

John Cooper enjoyed a wealth of riches at the end of 1959, both World Titles, 3 quality drivers under contract,and most importantly many quick privateers racing Copper chassis. Some of the 59 grids show about 1/3 of the entrants in Coopers and this included the top Walker Team of Moss And Trintignant. Budgetary and logistical considerations dictated at 2 car team was the answer to defend the titles in 1960. Gregory generally was quicker than McLaren with a poorer finishing recored; he finished only 3 WC races in 59 although 2 of these were podiums. A very difficult decision probably came down to the issues mentioned above, the strong bond between Brabham and McLaren and the decided mechanical advantage of Bruce. But, Gregory did everything required of him in 1959, even offering up his superior engine to Jack for Monaco, the team's initial WC win; he was the complete team player. Unfortunate that he was let go, but hindsight certainly confirms the decision; McLaren finished 1st and 2nd and led the early 60 championship and went on to many subsequent seasons at Cooper.

Gregory could have bagged a few GP wins had he remained, he was unlucky not to be placed in another front ranked team. His continued success in sports cars Nurburgring, Le Mans showed he hadn't lost any pace.

Edited by D28, 17 December 2017 - 01:55.

[Doug Nye]

Masten Gregory was in effect already past his most promising best into the winter of 1959-60. He'd had at least one major accident too many. He was very quick in bursts of frenzied energy but never achieved the consistent pace to threaten Brabham's effectiveness - nor the growing promise of the much younger McLaren. Cooper's decision to concentrate their limited budget upon just two works cars and drivers for 1960 was entirely sensible.

 

Just study the result.

 

His subsequent Formula 1 career with UDT-Laystall saw him being regarded very much as a second-string entry to de facto number one Innes Ireland. And that is tellingly significant.

 

It is also significant that he and Jack Brabham remained on good terms - and Jack really spoke very warmly of him whenever the subject came up.  

 

DCN

[ddmichael]

Thank you for all of the replies!

 

I have Cox's book but haven't read Sinibaldi.  How well does he document the "vitamin pill" claim?  That's not very a fair implication without proof.

 

 

It's not really documented at all - I don't recall a direct source having been quoted (but will double check when I get home). 

 

What is the evidence of that?

 

Without the stats to hand I'd say that his drive at Avus alone was proof that he was capable of outpacing his team mates - and on a clearly dangerous circuit - but that is only an opinion (one shared with Carroll Shelby) and he could well have won at Zandvoort. As Doug himself says in Cooper Cars, the team had planned for him to play 'hare' at Sebring, which would suggest to me that they knew he could provide all-out speed which Bruce was not (yet) capable of.

 

I don't think that there's any doubting his speed, along perhaps with his ability to break a gearbox, or to bail out of a fast-moving vehicle, though had it not been for that last talent his obit would likely have appeared in 1958. Indeed, had he not caught his foot on the wheel of the Tojeiro at Goodwood in '59, he probably wouldn't have missed Sebring....

 

Masten Gregory was in effect already past his most promising best into the winter of 1959-60. He'd had at least one major accident too many. He was very quick in bursts of frenzied energy but never achieved the consistent pace to threaten Brabham's effectiveness - nor the growing promise of the much younger McLaren. Cooper's decision to concentrate their limited budget upon just two works cars and drivers for 1960 was entirely sensible.

 

Just study the result.

 

His subsequent Formula 1 career with UDT-Laystall saw him being regarded very much as a second-string entry to de facto number one Innes Ireland. And that is tellingly significant.

 

It is also significant that he and Jack Brabham remained on good terms - and Jack really spoke very warmly of him whenever the subject came up.  

 

DCN

 

I agree completely with the business sense behind the two car Cooper entry for 1960, and as I mentioned it was clear that without Brabham's technical know-how Masten's car would not have been as quick. McLaren clearly had both driving and technical promise, making him the logical choice. I'm pleased to hear that Jack spoke fondly of him in later years.

 

In terms of his stint at UDT-Laystall though, I was under the impression that Innes had the latest Lotus at his disposal and so unsurprisingly had the edge on Masten, until a second car was made available and the duo were evenly matched, Gregory eventually becoming the quicker of the two.

 

Anyway, it's a lot of 'what if' speculation, but it's always surprised me that his star waned as quickly as it did, given his early performances for Centro-Sud in their old 250F, his well publicized brilliance in sports cars and his subsequent flashes of genius in what was rarely first class equipment. 

 

DM

[Ray Bell]

Jack wasn't so fond of the Oporto incident...

"He tried to kill me!" he said. But at Indianapolis he reckoned that Masten saved his life.

[Rupertlt1]

Confusion about his early career.

Racing Sports Cars has his debut at Caddo Mills, Texas, 5 July 1952, in an Allard J2X:

https://www.racingsp...regory-USA.html

Reportedly eight starters in the feature. No sign of MG.

Jerry Entin has his debut at Caddo Mills, 23 November 1952, #58 Allard-Mercury.

Car also described as "a highly modified Ardun-Ford-Allard" 

https://forums.autos...-2#entry9038110

This is corroborated by Carroll Shelby:

"the very first race that Masten Gregory ever drove in,"

The Carroll Shelby Story, by Carroll Shelby, Page 35.

DNF, "throttle linkage broke"

Caddo Mills, Texas, 11 January 1953, also #58 red Allard? "drove an improved race"

https://forums.autos...3#entry10707776

Other:

Stillwater, Oklahoma, 29 March 1953

In the final race of the day, a 50-mile event, a Chrysler powered Allard driven by Masten Gregory, Kansas City, beat fellow-townsman Dale Duncan at the wheel of the special Jag. (same Allard but "re-fitted with a modified Chrysler.")

Bergstrom Air Base, Austin, Texas, 12 April 1953

3rd place, Jaguar XK120 C

RGDS RLT 

Edited by Rupertlt1, 05 September 2024 - 06:48.

[Tim Murray]

The Michael Cox biography has the November 1952 Caddo Mills race as Masten’s first event.

[Rupertlt1]

The Michael Cox biography has the November 1952 Caddo Mills race as Masten’s first event.

 

Any information ref Caddo Mills, Texas, 18  11th January 1953?

I am fairly certain that is the footage in the film?

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 05 September 2024 - 06:23.

[Tim Murray]

Sadly no. The next event mentioned is the 1953 Sebring 12 Hours, and his performance there is summarised as ‘an impressive showing for someone with just five laps worth of racing experience’, implying that Sebring was his second event.

[Rupertlt1]

Prime example in this category

is the Sports Car Club of Amer-

ca's current meteor, 21-year-old

Masten Gregory of Kansas City.

During the winter, when weath-

er curtailed racing activity in the

Midwest, he came to Texas to

enter a regional SCCA event at

Caddo Mills, where he failed to

finish in a highly-modified Ar-

dun-Ford-Allard. A few weeks

later he tried again at Caddo,

drove an improved race and then

captured a first at Stillwater,

Okla., in his Allard which had

been re-fitted with a modified

Chrysler.

Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Sun, 9 Aug 1953, Page 23

The #58 red Allard is clearly visible in the film footage.

Opening shots etc.

Date: 11 January 1953. 200-mile race.

https://forums.autos...3#entry10707776

"has been competing since November of 1952, when he drove an Allard at Caddo Mills, Tex. (“The engine blew after a few hot laps.”)"

23 Nov 1952: "expired with a blown cylinder head gasket after five laps. The race was run in pouring rain and poor visibility"
So not the race in the film?

RGDS RLT 

Edited by Rupertlt1, 05 September 2024 - 15:05.

[rl1856]

Masten Gregory was largely self financed through much of the 50's after receiving a large trust or insurance payout at age 18.  He spent a good portion of his funds on cars and racing.  His money brought him entry at a much higher level than most.  Instead of learning how to drive in smaller cars and in minor races, he essentially started almost at the deep end and developed his skill as he went along.  How many drove a Chrysler Hemi powered Allard at Sebring in only their 2nd race (1953)?  By mid 1953 he had purchased C type Jaguar and then won a few minor US races before being invited to race in the 1000km of Buenos Aires....2 Championship level Sports Car Races in essentially his first year of racing.   Gregory was capable of extremely good performances by the late 50's, but he was always inconsistent and judged to be driving at his limit.  His 1959 season with Cooper was a great example; staggeringly good at times, but often failing to finish due to driving too hard or an accident.  In 1959 one could say he was better than McLaren, but not an ideal #2 driver to back up Brabham so it was a practical decision to release him and move to a 2 car team.  Through 1960-61 his promise was still visible in his drives for Camoradi and Centro Cud, in outdated cars.  He did comparatively well with UDT / BRP in 1962.  Innes was marginally better, but Masten outqualified him on several occasions.  Gregory should have done better than he did in 1962.   Hall arrived in 1963 and brought funding, which was much needed by the BRP team. By the early 1960's Gregory's inheritance was not as large as it once was, and he mostly concentrated on sports cars where he enjoyed success.   His drive at Indy in 1965 showed he could still perform at a high level.  He started 31st, but was running in 5th place before he retired.  He won LeMans barely a month later, which was the peak of his career and achievements.  Masten Gregory was a great "what if"...he had talent and if he had developed under different circumstances, who knows what he could have accomplished.  

[Rupertlt1]

Ref Caddo Mills, Texas, 11 January 1953:
https://forums.autos...-2#entry5439308

The missing picture has to be the one here:

https://forums.autos...-2#entry9038969

#39 Carroll Shelby won the feature, seen in the film taking the chequered flag.

The #58 red Allard is clearly seen competing in the film (is it a J2 or J2X?)

https://forums.autos...3#entry10707776

Photo here, note distinctive hood scoop:

https://forums.autos...-2#entry9038110

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 06 September 2024 - 07:19.