55 replies to this topic

[275 GTB-4]

Just beautiful...spotted at Morgan Park QLD on the weekend (my admiration for the B8 performance, style and elegance was sorely tested! :-)

[simonlewisbooks]

A delight. Surely even the famous Italian styling house could not have improved on this sublime design ?

[arttidesco]

67 - 72 was a great period for racing sports car designs, the B16 is right up there with the best of them P4, GT Mk IV, T70, 512S 917K and P68/F3L not until Group C did anything come quite as close to the sheer beauty of the designs of that 5 year period and I certainly do not believe anything has come close post Group C.

[Ray Bell]

You're right there, clean uncluttered lines with obvious attention to aerodynamic drag and downforce apparently a secondary consideration...

There's a lot of T70 GT cues about this design and it's dramatically more aesthetic than the B8.

[E1pix]

67 - 72 was a great period for racing sports car designs, the B16 is right up there with the best of them P4, GT Mk IV, T70, 512S 917K and P68/F3L...

Agree with all those, Artti! I'd add 512M to the heap's summit, however.

A member here has a B16, hoping to sit it in someday and make exhaust sounds if he'll let me. (there goes my invite )

[arttidesco]

Agree with all those, Artti! I'd add 512M to the heap's summit, however.

Psychedelic 917LH for me, my list was not intended to be exhaustive

[E1pix]

Oh Man, I love that car. Bobby Rahal owned it for a while, we saw him in it in 2002 with the standard tail [ ].

Wonderful graphics.

[scags]

nice car, but I would prefer an original, not a continuation.

[elansprint72]

^Derrick Bennett????????????

[elansprint72]

You're right there, clean uncluttered lines with obvious attention to aerodynamic drag and downforce apparently a secondary consideration...

There's a lot of T70 GT cues about this design ..........

Same pencil drew it.

There was virtually no rear down-force originally but it looked really fabulous before the "orange-boxes" were added at the rear corners.

[GreenMachine]

nice car, but I would prefer an original, not a continuation.

... so you would knock it back if it was offered to you?

Not me, I would take a replica, continuation or an 'original' - a lovely car whose lines are matched by only a few and bettered by none, as far as I am concerned.

Owned locally Mick?

[275 GTB-4]

... so you would knock it back if it was offered to you?;)

Not me, I would take a replica, continuation or an 'original' - a lovely car whose lines are matched by only a few and bettered by none, as far as I am concerned.

Owned locally Mick?

No eye deer Ed...must look in a programme...

[kayemod]

There's a lot of T70 GT cues about this design...

The same man was indeed largely responsible for both the Chevron B16 and the Lola T70, but I'm pretty sure that Elansprint is wrong about pencils being involved. The man concerned was Jim Clark of Specialised Mouldings, who also had a hand in the McLaren M6GT and quite a few others as well. Jim left SM around the time I joined, so I never really worked with him there, but we did get to know each other well at his later employment at FKS Fibreglass, later Griffin Design in Poole just up the road from where I now live. Jim worked with his hands in three dimensions, so although he may have started with drawings from Eric Broadley and others, it was his skill in translating these into a full-sized car that was the key to his successes, getting things to look good on paper is much less than half the battle, it's the relatively easy part. Jim's later work in Poole included most of the Gulf Mirages, he was especially pleased with the open cars, and he also did a lot of work for Penske, who took over Graham McRae's workshop that was right next door to FKS/Griffin in Balena Close on the Creekmoor Industrial Estate. Before Specialised Mouldings, Jim worked for Lotus, I think he largely created the Elan coupe with John Frayling.

[elansprint72]

The same man was indeed largely responsible for both the Chevron B16 and the Lola T70, but I'm pretty sure that Elansprint is wrong about pencils being involved. The man concerned was Jim Clark of Specialised Mouldings, who also had a hand in the McLaren M6GT and quite a few others as well. Jim left SM around the time I joined, so I never really worked with him there, but we did get to know each other well at his later employment at FKS Fibreglass, later Griffin Design in Poole just up the road from where I now live. Jim worked with his hands in three dimensions, so although he may have started with drawings from Eric Broadley and others, it was his skill in translating these into a full-sized car that was the key to his successes, getting things to look good on paper is much less than half the battle, it's the relatively easy part. Jim's later work in Poole included most of the Gulf Mirages, he was especially pleased with the open cars, and he also did a lot of work for Penske, who took over Graham McRae's workshop that was right next door to FKS/Griffin in Balena Close on the Creekmoor Industrial Estate. Before Specialised Mouldings, Jim worked for Lotus, I think he largely created the Elan coupe with John Frayling.

Right man, wrong tool; apologies.

[GMACKIE]

No eye deer Ed...must look in a programme...

Mmmm....Blind Venison, sounds delicious.

I wouldn't knock back that car, either.

Edited by GMACKIE, 18 July 2012 - 00:18.

[E1pix]

Not me, I would take a replica, continuation or an 'original' - a lovely car whose lines are matched by only a few and bettered by none, as far as I am concerned.

Absolutely. If fortunate enough to have one, even with pink polka dots, I'd be thrilled.

[scags]

yes, I'd love to own it, but after all the bitching and moaning here about "cars built up from a chassis plate", let's remember this doesn't even have one, and all the racing" history" is recent, decades after the type finished racing .

[arttidesco]

Oh Man, I love that car. Bobby Rahal owned it for a while, we saw him in it in 2002 with the standard tail [ ].

Wonderful graphics.

Going way off topic IIRC Mr Rahal had chassis 021 that was rescued from a scrapyard by Herr Grossman and restored by him for road use.

The original 917LH Hippy Car was chassis 043, my favorite, said to have gone to Vasek Polak as chassis 044. Not sure where the 043/044 is now.

[scags]

Two questions- how many of the 23 originals are left, and which Grand Prix did Chevron win? (according to the car card)

[JacnGille]

A member here has a B16, hoping to sit it in someday and make exhaust sounds if he'll let me.;) (there goes my invite )

Car exhaust and not your exhaust, I trust.

[BT 35-8]

The car DOES carry a chassis plate

The current owner is Jeff. Brown from Melbourne.

Chassis plate as attached by the then current owner of Chevron Cars Ltd.
Laurence Jacobsen.
Chassis plate reads as follows.

Type B 16 GT
chassis 18-70 [ R-1983] R for Reconstruction as advised by Laurence Jacobsen
in formal documentation so that car could not be claimed as otherwise.

The car carries CAMS papers for Group R , 1978- various mid / late 1980s end dates.

Bryan Miller .
Chairman , CAMS Historic Eligibility Committee.

[arttidesco]

Two questions- how many of the 23 originals are left, and which Grand Prix did Chevron win? (according to the car card)

I do not recall the B41, Chevrons only, non world championship, Formula One Car winning any races, so maybe this is a reference to the 1973 Race of Champions or perhaps a win in one of the Antipodean F5000/FPacific races that was called a Grand Prix, conceivably could also be an Atlantic race in the USA that was either called a Grand Prix or took place over a Grand Prix weekend at somewhere like Long Beach.

I'd be interested to know which F2 championship was won by a driver of a Chevron car since none spring to mind, though there were certainly F2 championship race winners in that category, but that says more about my memory than events that actually took place.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by arttidesco
I do not recall the B41, Chevrons only, non world championship, Formula One Car winning any races, so maybe this is a reference to the 1973 Race of Champions or perhaps a win in one of the Antipodean F5000/FPacific races that was called a Grand Prix.....

Don't let David McKinney hear you talk like that!

New Zealand Grand Prix, a two-heat race at Pukekohe in 1978. The winner was Keke Rosberg in a Chevron B42 FAtlantic, he beat Larry Perkins, Bobby Rahal and Danny Sullivan on aggregate after losing the first heat to Steve Millen and Perkins.

[Milan Fistonic]

Two questions- how many of the 23 originals are left, and which Grand Prix did Chevron win? (according to the car card)

The New Zealand Grand Prix

[Giraffe]

Two questions- how many of the 23 originals are left

As has been quoted before on the forum, approximately 32 but this figure fluctuates............

I was lucky enough to have been an Aintree on the Tuesday evening in early August 1969 when the first B16 was rolled out with Derek Bennett behind the wheel.

IIRC there are a "magic" 8 or so B16s that are deemed by the cognescenti to be "original", the remainder being viewed somewhat holistically.

Edited by Giraffe, 18 July 2012 - 07:19.

[doc knutsen]

As has been quoted before on the forum, approximately 32 but this figure fluctuates............

I was lucky enough to have been an Aintree on the Tuesday evening in early August 1969 when the first B16 was rolled out with Derek Bennett behind the wheel.

IIRC there are a "magic" 8 or so B16s that are deemed by the cognescenti to be "original", the remainder being viewed somewhat holistically.

A white B16 was shown at a Belfast motor show in early 1970, just a few months after I had started at Queen's University. It was love at first sight. One gorgeous looking racing car.

[kayemod]

Two questions- how many of the 23 originals are left, and which Grand Prix did Chevron win? (according to the car card)

Interesting, wasn't the B16 homologated as a 'Group 5' GT, for which a production run of 25 was the minimum? It seems it wasn't only Ferrari who was able to fiddle the numbers a little.

[simonlewisbooks]

Interesting, wasn't the B16 homologated as a 'Group 5' GT, for which a production run of 25 was the minimum? It seems it wasn't only Ferrari who was able to fiddle the numbers a little.

No almost everyone was at it
The only firm who seemed to get caught out/denied were Clan who had their application for the (Gp3 ?) Crusader turned down as they had only built enough bodies....which was more than many of the other did, it must be said!
Perhaps the boss of Clan was not a member of the right lodge/golf club (delete as appropriate)?

[Mallory Dan]

Don't let David McKinney hear you talk like that!

New Zealand Grand Prix, a two-heat race at Pukekohe in 1978. The winner was Keke Rosberg in a Chevron B42 FAtlantic, he beat Larry Perkins, Bobby Rahal and Danny Sullivan on aggregate after losing the first heat to Steve Millen and Perkins.

B39, Ray, not a B42.

[john winfield]

No almost everyone was at it
The only firm who seemed to get caught out/denied were Clan who had their application for the (Gp3 ?) Crusader turned down as they had only built enough bodies....which was more than many of the other did, it must be said!
Perhaps the boss of Clan was not a member of the right lodge/golf club (delete as appropriate)?

There were a couple of interesting letters in Motoring News, one from Andy Dawson and one from Paul Haussauer the Clan MD. If I remember, they were defending the (eventually successful?) homologation of the Crusader, and having a dig at a senior figure at or involved with Ginetta who, allegedly, was trying to ensure that the CC's application was turned down. I've seen a photo somewhere of Paul Haussauer; he was neither holding a golf club, nor had rolled up his trouser leg so, Simon, you could be right.

Sorry, this is nothing to do with the B16 is it? It's a beautiful car and I agree with arti, from a time overflowing with attractive, purposeful sports cars.

Edited by john winfield, 18 July 2012 - 09:41.

[brakedisc]

Is this the car that started the whole reproduction debate ?

[Charlieman]

yes, I'd love to own it, but after all the bitching and moaning here about "cars built up from a chassis plate", let's remember this doesn't even have one, and all the racing" history" is recent, decades after the type finished racing .

However it is a remarkably honest continuation car history. There is no flim flammery and it competes (accepted by entrants) on fair representation. That makes it more tolerable to me than many chassis plate reconstructions -- cf Doug Nye's critique of "rebuilds" that create fast cars incorporating so much modern technology (in welding, GRP, materials) to make them visually identical but behaviourally different from the original.

[E1pix]

You nail some good points here, Charlieman.

As a fan I'd much rather see more cars on the track than less, any day, even if that means continuations. But as a sportsman, it's only fair play to build "new" cars to exactly the same specs and materials as the originals. Anything less than perfect reproductions disservices the entire game, and all competitors as well.

Vintage or otherwise, this is racing after all... and for an original-spec car to be beaten by an improved version, and potentially have less resale value as a result, strikes me as a rules violation — or at least a breach of a gentleman's agreement.

[scags]

I give the owner credit for honesty, but wouldn't it have been easier to buy an existing car, instead of the company, which then built the car?

[E1pix]

^Derrick Bennett????????????

I was more impressed with "Brain" Redman and (Reine) "Wisel."

Funny how spell checking results in the worst spelling era ever.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by E1pix
You nail some good points here, Charlieman.

As a fan I'd much rather see more cars on the track than less, any day, even if that means continuations. But as a sportsman, it's only fair play to build "new" cars to exactly the same specs and materials as the originals. Anything less than perfect reproductions disservices the entire game, and all competitors as well.

Vintage or otherwise, this is racing after all... and for an original-spec car to be beaten by an improved version, and potentially have less resale value as a result, strikes me as a rules violation — or at least a breach of a gentleman's agreement.

Just having more in existence, surely, would help devalue the real ones?

Not that this is at all relevant to those who simply want to see the cars in action. But their racing performance today shouldn't make any difference to value at all...

[arttidesco]

Don't let David McKinney hear you talk like that!

New Zealand Grand Prix, a two-heat race at Pukekohe in 1978. The winner was Keke Rosberg in a Chevron B42 FAtlantic, he beat Larry Perkins, Bobby Rahal and Danny Sullivan on aggregate after losing the first heat to Steve Millen and Perkins.

Apologies to David, thanks Ray (and MD)

[E1pix]

Just having more in existence, surely, would help devalue the real ones?

Not that this is at all relevant to those who simply want to see the cars in action. But their racing performance today shouldn't make any difference to value at all...

On your first point, that sounds right, Raymond.

Typically, any winning race car sells for more, though. If I were looking to buy, and saw a newer one beat an original using newer "technology," and I wanted to win — and it was cheaper to boot and resale was of secondary concern — I know what I'd buy...

[275 GTB-4]

On your first point, that sounds right, Raymond.

Typically, any winning race car sells for more, though. If I were looking to buy, and saw a newer one beat an original using newer "technology," and I wanted to win — and it was cheaper to boot and resale was of secondary concern — I know what I'd buy...

Replicars are replicars...genuine race cars with a provenance are something else...there is room for both as a either a tribute or responsibility to preserve "history"...

Damn sure Ferrari aren't worried about these....

[Catalina Park]

Are you stalking me Mick?

[Giraffe]

Judging by the owner's choice of caravan, the chap has a sense of humour! Forest Gump perhaps?

[275 GTB-4]

Are you stalking me Mick?

OMG Eula!! is that your car!! Hey...nice effort Bro!! What more can I say!! LOL

[Catalina Park]

OMG Eula!! is that your car!! Hey...nice effort Bro!! What more can I say!! LOL

Yes Mick it is my car.

[275 GTB-4]

Yes Mick it is my car.

Gaaaaawwddd...better COMMS needed between us mate!!

[Catalina Park]

The question is why was I driving past when you were taking a photo of the worlds ugliest Toyota?

[Ray Bell]

You were heading off to get a wheel alignment?

Whose next guess?

[RTH]

Who are making B16s at the moment?

[Giraffe]

Who are making B16s at the moment?

http://www.chevronracing.com/b16/

http://www.chevronra...pecs/specs.html

[GMACKIE]

The question is why was I driving past when you were taking a photo of the worlds ugliest Toyota?

You were heading to W.P. office, to apply for a AASA race licence.

[arttidesco]

Yes Mick it is my car.



The question is why was I driving past when you were taking a photo of the worlds ugliest Toyota?

On your way home to catch a rerun of "Skippy" on TV perhaps ?