21 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

Champ car and IRL was like a battle of giants, compared to the anonymity that seems to face some of the non-Bernie affiliated open wheel racing in Europe and elsewhere.

You have to wonder why they (i.e., the next Russian, Arab or other billionaire ) can't get closer to a Champcar style series, when there all those great options: circuits that aren't suitable for f1 (like Assen, Sacshenring, Brands Hatch etc) or have been dumped by f1 (like Turkey, A1 Ring, Jerez, Magny Cours etc), a wealth of engineering expertise surplus to or superseded by f1 (e.g., good ol' 4L Judd V10--cheap, power up to 700 hp for 3000 mile rebuilds, and sounds great--just as suitable for modern racing as it is to keep a vintage ferrari f1 car in running condition), huge reserves of well trained open wheel drivers in the continent (otherwise lost to sportscars, touring cars or presenting television!), and huge fan interest in open wheel style racing.

• Renault World Series - easily the best known. A good affordable junior series with a modest naturally aspirated v6 engine (about 500 hp?) and great cost controls achieving relatively fast lap times. Free tickets so people turn up to watch it.
• A1 GP - bankrupt as we know. The Ferrari f1 "based" car (well the shape...) with the heavy Ferrari road car v8 engine was an interesting choice. Each choice was branded with a nation and the driver could be changed as frequently as from session to session!
• Superleague Formula - appears to have gone out of business. Menard's V12 sounds fantastic. Inexplicably slower than RWS despite huge 750 hp engine They ran a mixture of football team and nation branded cars.
• Auto GP world series (i.e., European F3000 series) - quite the name, a support series of the World Touring Car Championship with just 7 rounds. Interestingly they will be racing at Sears Point. Apparently they use old A1GP cars now, persisting with the good ol' Zytek 3.4L V8 (500 hp). I can't recall seeing a thread about the 'Auto GP world series' on here.
• Formula Nippon. Once a F3000 based series, they now run both the Toyota and Honda versions of the 3.5L IRL-style V8 in a Swift chassis with ground effects that is faster than the IRL race cars. The drivers seem to be mainly Japanese superstars (such as Kazuki Nakajima) with a handful of international drivers. I wonder why this series is not better known, and does not race more widely across the Asia-Pacific region? I would have thought having two engine manufacturers would make this one of the most prestigious series of it's type? Yet somehow it seems to be just a fancy support race for Super GT's "main show".

The same old names seem to often turn up in the least known of these leagues (at least for A1GP, Superleague and Auto GP), and they rarely seem to be folks who have ever been on the radar of F1 teams or in f1 testing roles as far as I can tell.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 18 July 2012 - 06:07.

[GotYoubyTheBalls]

What about Formula 2

[BullHead]

F3, FFord, FRenault, Intersteps... I miss Formula Palmer Audi....

[EarnardBeccelstone]

There are some great open wheel series with light weight and comparatively underpowered single seaters.

Toyota Racing Series in New Zealand has great racing and a really good mix of circuits. The series plays home to the New Zealand Grand Prix - which is the only non-F1 Grand Prix apart from from Macau. Its just a shame that the series gets almost no TV coverage here in Australia.

Formula BMW has its moments as well, although its not the same since the end of the regional championships.

European F3, plus the various national F3 championships in general, also produce nice racing. Check out Vettel vs Hamilton in F3 in 2005.

I'll put a vote in for Formula Nippon as well. This is just as competitive as GP2 or Formula Renault and produces some jaw-droppingly good racing. Plus, little open wheelers on circuits like Suzuka and Fuji makes for entertainment.

For lots of drivers these series are their first 'slicks and wings' experience, which makes for some interesting racing - sometimes you cant believe what just happened, either because it was amazing or because it was strictly amateur hour.

[Ali_G]

Formula Nippon is quite well known surely ?

[PayasYouRace]

F Nippon is still a national championship at it's heart. Likewise for British F3 or anything else like that. So they can get well known when they produce F1 drivers, but when they don't they tend to fall back.

The only national championships that tend to be better known are the American ones, but that's mainly down to the US being such a large country with such a strong motorsport scene.

Do things like EuroBoss still exist?

[Fulcrum]

I think the Formula Nippon has big future

Formula Nippon is aiming to change to an all new chassis in 2013. The current generation of Swift built cars will be replaced by a new machine which features a Formula 1 style kinetic energy recovery system (KERS) and potential a drag reduction system also. Small capacity four cylinder turbo engines are also likely to feature in the new machines, as the series aims to become the second fastest open wheel category in the world.
Honda and Toyota have already started running a Zytek KERS on adapted Swift chassis in recent weeks and the final decision on the timing and manufacturer of the new car is not expected until the summer. Lola, Dome and Swift are all thought to be in the running for the lucrative contract. The series aims to expand all around the Pacific rim and may change its name as a result, it also hopes to encourage new manufacturers to the series, specifically those from India and China.
Hiroshi Shirai one of the leading figures in the organisation of the championship reveals the plans in the latest issue of RCE.

[Risil]

Formula Nippon is quite well known surely ?

Formula Nippon is big but it has an almost total lack of English-language coverage. I've heard that Japan's sports media is still largely print-based and does not have anything like the internet presence of its European and American counterparts. You could say the same for the All-Japan Road Race Championships -- while they're not of the world-class standard they were in the 1990s, it's incredibly difficult to get any info on them at all, three-paragraph Suzuka 8 Hours reports aside.

[Magoo]

What about Formula 3 Sudamericana and the Brazilian Formula Three Championship? Are these series still important in their host countries?

[Myrvold]

[list]
[*]Auto GP world series (i.e., European F3000 series) - quite the name, a support series of the World Touring Car Championship with just 7 rounds. Interestingly they will be racing at Sears Point. Apparently they use old A1GP cars now, persisting with the good ol' Zytek 3.4L V8 (500 hp). I can't recall seeing a thread about the 'Auto GP world series' on here.

http://forums.autosp...w...40&start=40

[pingu666]

tour mods and sprint cars?
sprint cars are probably the most bonkers open wheel cars

[alfista]

What about Formula 2

IMHO Formula 2 is in the final state of an agony. Our dear friend Max pushed it forward to show his muscles and compete with non-FIA GP2. It is an epic fail. Although the concept itself seemed to be a good one it has never become what it was supposed to be. Somebody said here he was missing Palmer Audi. Well, mate, F2 is nothing else than Palmer Audi on steroids, if you haven't noticed it.
And talking about its value, there is only one question - how many drivers had used F2 as a springboard to somewhere? Yeah, winners have had a possibility to test Williams F1 car but so what? What have they made out of it?
Talking about F2 as a stepping stone towards F1, Robert Wickens is perhaps the only driver ever raced in FIA F2 who still has some chances to reach a GP start one day. From this year field maybe 15-year-old wunderkind Mathéo Tuscher can develop himself into a real prospect. Series leader Luciano Bacheta is doing a solid job but look at who are his opponents. He really has nothing to cheer about, the overall level is lamentable and grids small.
FIA F2 is now in its 4th year and it will be a wonder if it will continue next year. OK, maybe as an addition to the BTCC package or something. Initially they were racing together with WTCC but then decided to split and become "independent". It is easy to blame dr Palmer with the hindsight we have now but did he seriously thought F2 can survive on its own?

[Seanspeed]

I miss A1GP.

Great racing, decent drivers, good concept, good tracks. And it also gave us a nice racing fix between F1 seasons.

Edited by Seanspeed, 19 July 2012 - 15:20.

[Risil]

The concept wasn't that good and I'm not really sure what their business model was. However, in retrospect it looks like a pretty good series. Some of the drivers were excellent and they raced in places that F1 had sadly abandoned. Can't help but feel it was a big wasted opportunity, and the "World Cup" aspect -- as it was implemented -- was laughable.

Edited by Risil, 19 July 2012 - 15:50.

[pingu666]

theres not the market for it:( maybe without wsbr...

f2 failed because you cant buy a advantage

[Risil]

I'm convinced that if things in F1 keep going as they are, there'll be a market soon for a Formula Nippon-like single-seater series in western European countries. Although in practice that would just be DTM with those road car disguises taken off. And since the backers of that series are really the only people with the time and money to build it, it won't happen any time soon.

Pingu: and with identically-prepared cars, you can't even cheat to get one!

Edited by Risil, 19 July 2012 - 23:50.

[ForeverF1]

The concept wasn't that good and I'm not really sure what their business model was. However, in retrospect it looks like a pretty good series. Some of the drivers were excellent and they raced in places that F1 had sadly abandoned. Can't help but feel it was a big wasted opportunity, and the "World Cup" aspect -- as it was implemented -- was laughable.

Agree with what you say, however, I think the demise of this and this sort of series is that they went for the quick buck from PTV without thinking of the long term implications of PTV.

[Zippel]

There's the old Formula Holden/Brabham which used to earn the winning driver the Gold Star in Australia. It was very similar to F3000 but even then I remember some drivers who tried to make it overseas, like Skaife and Lowndes, used to find it difficult to explain what Formula Holden was. It fell out of favour a few years back and the newly formed Formula 3 effectively took its place.

[Risil]

Agree with what you say, however, I think the demise of this and this sort of series is that they went for the quick buck from PTV without thinking of the long term implications of PTV.

True. Although iirc Sky were quite serious about it at the beginning -- this wasn't some Eurosport commentators in a studio talking over the world feed job.

Having a pay TV deal didn't hurt World Superbikes in the 1990s in the slightest, although bike audiences pretty much knew what it was they'd be getting. A1 GP's circumstances were very different -- new series, new ideas, unfamiliar drivers. It's not surprising an audience never developed. Now if they'd convinced the BBC to send their cameras down to the inaugural Brands Hatch round in 2005, instead of the GP Masters adventure...

Who paid for the series? Did teams survive entirely on the Sheikh's largesse? There was supposed to be country-specific sponsorship but that idea was daft.

Edited by Risil, 20 July 2012 - 00:01.

[ForeverF1]

True. Although iirc Sky were quite serious about it at the beginning -- this wasn't some Eurosport commentators in a studio talking over the world feed job.

Having a pay TV deal didn't hurt World Superbikes in the 1990s in the slightest, although bike audiences pretty much knew what it was they'd be getting. A1 GP's circumstances were very different -- new series, new ideas, unfamiliar drivers. It's not surprising an audience never developed. Now if they'd convinced the BBC to send their cameras down to the inaugural Brands Hatch round in 2005, instead of the GP Masters adventure...

Who paid for the series? Did teams survive entirely on the Sheikh's largesse? There was supposed to be country-specific sponsorship but that idea was daft.

They all went for the quick buck from PTV rather than building up a follow-ship and making it a viable, monetary wise, series. Don't know about WSB, stopped following bikes when Norton stopped racing.

[V8 Fireworks]

instead of the GP Masters adventure...

Sorry I forgot all about that GP Masters!

What is it with sticking naturally aspirated engines in old CART tubs, it is like a magnet for wealthy if optimistic promoters...

[BullHead]

IMHO Formula 2 is in the final state of an agony. Our dear friend Max pushed it forward to show his muscles and compete with non-FIA GP2. It is an epic fail. Although the concept itself seemed to be a good one it has never become what it was supposed to be. Somebody said here he was missing Palmer Audi. Well, mate, F2 is nothing else than Palmer Audi on steroids, if you haven't noticed it. And talking about its value, there is only one question - how many drivers had used F2 as a springboard to somewhere? Yeah, winners have had a possibility to test Williams F1 car but so what? What have they made out of it?
Talking about F2 as a stepping stone towards F1, Robert Wickens is perhaps the only driver ever raced in FIA F2 who still has some chances to reach a GP start one day. From this year field maybe 15-year-old wunderkind Mathéo Tuscher can develop himself into a real prospect. Series leader Luciano Bacheta is doing a solid job but look at who are his opponents. He really has nothing to cheer about, the overall level is lamentable and grids small.
FIA F2 is now in its 4th year and it will be a wonder if it will continue next year. OK, maybe as an addition to the BTCC package or something. Initially they were racing together with WTCC but then decided to split and become "independent". It is easy to blame dr Palmer with the hindsight we have now but did he seriously thought F2 can survive on its own?

Yeah, I agree. F2 comes across more as a Palmer ego massage than anything else. Yes, it is an arrive and drive pay as you go spec series just like FPA was. Only a lot more expensive. FPA concept was good to me, an arrive and drive budget series that gave drivers a chance to get into single seater racing. When F2 and FPA were both running it made a nice ladder IMO.