93 replies to this topic

[TonyKaye]

The trouble with stumbling across what appears to be a mind-blowing piece of information is that you may be the only person in the world who is unaware of it. So if the following is ho-hum to you, please forgive me.

It happened in 1946 and I guarantee that I'm not making this up. The competition committee of the British Automobile Club held a meeting and decided that they would scrap that most hallowed of all British racing institutions, British Racing Green. Bear in mind that most of the members, perhaps all of them, were racing men and that dark green represented their whole past. Edge in his Napier, Segrave in his Sunbeam at the French Grand Prix, the Bentley victories at Le Mans.

Yet they agreed to rid themselves of BRG and in its place chose BLUE. No matter that this was already allotted to France. Since the French had conventionally selected the Cambridge end of the spectrum, no doubt Britain could don the blue of Oxford. And just to make everything clear, British cars would wear a Union Jack on either side of the hood.

As usually happens, word of the decision soon got out. The rank and file of British motor racing was appalled. Senior members wrote agonized letters to the motoring press. The sporting editors phoned up their old buddies and no-one, but no-one, could be found who supported the change.

Eventually the RAC was forced by popular demand to rescind the proposal and Earl Howe, the head of British motor sport, 'graciously', as they put it, backed down. And so ended a strange little episode in British motor racing history.

Just think, if the proposal had been accepted by the FIA, the Lotuses that Stirling Moss drove to double victories at Monaco, the Jaguars that won at Le Mans in 1956 and 1957, the Cooper that was the first rear-engined car to win a Formula 1 race, the 4WD Ferguson that won the Gold Cup at Oulton Park, and even Siffert's British Grand Prix winning Lotus, all of them would have been DARK BLUE. Horrors!!!!

[Wolf]

Tony- Ferguson indeed was blue.;) As well as all cars he drove for Rob Walker (since Rob was Scottish, and Scottish colour was blue with white stripe and rondel). Here, I'll prove it:



And what would You say of his '61 Monza car?

[Ray Bell]

I think Tony has had a go at you and got you right wound up Wolf, though he didn't know who he would wind up!

All the cars he mentioned were blue, carefully selected, and the avoidance of green is quite deliberate...

Otherwise, we would have seen Vanwalls and C-Types on the list!
Connaughts, even....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Wolf
http://fp.geocities....chr/Moss_22.jpg

And what would You say of his '61 Monza car?

http://fp.geocities....chr/Moss_32.jpg

heh heh... just wanted to see what the pics were.... but you've done something wrong with the second one.

As for Tony, he's had a great time in the papers.... reminds me of the time I found the note that the Olympic Committee had decided that the 1940 games would be held in Tokyo.

Saw plenty of war crimes trial stuff, did you Tony?

[TonyKaye]

Of course you're right, Ray. I wanted to include a dark blue Connaught, but the only one I could think of was Rob Walker's as driven by Tony Rolt. But it never won a truly major race, so I resisted the temptation. Now an Aston would have been nice, but I racked the few brain cells I have left and couldn't come up with a major race winner in dark blue. There was Tommy Sopwith's rare Armstrong (?) based sports-racer, but again no big successes.

[Wolf]

And I didn't even see it coming. If fish were as clever as me, fishing would be no fun!;) I thought- here's the chance to show that even I have learned and know something, remembered ol' carpe diem and went for it. I owe You one, Tony.;)

[Wolf]

Ray, fixed the second one- both were on Geocities, but for whatever the reason it displayed only one. Moved them on another server and it appeares to be OK now.

[Ray Bell]

Different server? I know nothing about this...

I'll bet your stroll through the papers was a true joy, Tony!

What other gems did you find?

[BRG]

Originally posted by TonyKaye
Yet they agreed to rid themselves of BRG

A lesser man might take all this personally....

But why were all those cars painted blue, when the national racing colours system was still in use? I know that the Jags were Ecurie Ecoss, so the blue was for Scotland (although why a mere province got it's own colour, I don't know) [sorry, another wind-up] But were the others Scots as well?

[Ray Bell]

All Rob Walker cars were blue with a white stripe round the front, like the Ecurie Ecosse cars, so I guess that Rob was related to Johnnie somewhere along the line...

Were the Border Rievers cars also blue and white?

[TonyKaye]

Blue and white were never recognized by the FIA as the official colors for Scotland. In fact Scotland was never recognized as a separate State, because it was part of Great Britain. The colors derive from the flag of St. Andrew, the patron saint of Scotland.
The Union Jack is comprised of the flags of the kingdoms of the realm. In it you can see the red and white of St. George, for example. The blue and white part is Scotland's contribution. 'Nigel Mansell' printed crudely in white across the middle is not recognized by the Royal Heralds.

[BRG]

TonyKaye

You mean those pesky Scots were cheating by not painting their cars a proper legal BRG?? Mon dieu, first Braveheart and now this. Should Jaguar have their Le Mans wins rescinded?

Time to start turning out all the English-built cars in white and red - let's see, that would be McLaren, Williams, BAR, Jordan, Arrows, Jaguar and Bennetton all tricked out in a smart white with red stripes livery. Lovely!!!

[TonyKaye]

Right on, BRG! And Alfa Romeo, Maserati and Bugatti won all the Grand Prix from 1934 thru 1939 because the Auto Unions and Mercedes were silver, not white, which is Germany's racing color. And while we're about it, let's kick out the Porsches and Mercedes after the war. Let's kick out everyone and make Roger Ward the winner of the US Grand Prix in his Kurtis Kraft midget. This is fun!!!!

[BRG]

Hang on, was Roger Ward's car painted the right colour?

[Don Capps]

It was Close Enough....

[TonyKaye]

We can change America's racing colors to whatever paint scheme Roger had. We'll get the RAC competition department to do it for us!

[Ray Bell]

What about Jack in the sixties, Australian colours of green and gold were okay... but that lousy Lotus mob tried to hijack them!

Colin didn't even have a weekender here!

[Rob29]

Actually Jack Brabham started with bright emrald? green in 1962,changed to Touquise & Gold later that year,BRG &Gold 1963-68.Copied Lotus BRG with Yellow stripe in 1969 & back to Touquoise in 70.Bernie bought the team for 71 & used virgin white as he had no sponsor.

[Ray Bell]

One of the impressive things about the Brabham cars was that the 'gold' strip really was a gold colour, rather than the yellow we're usually asked to accept as gold.

Yes, his 24 was another colour, and the 1962 F1 Brabham was a turquoise - as was the car he brought out for the 62 AGP and the International races of 1963. Later he ran a red and yellow car at Bathurst, which was right out of character, and he had the turquiose and gold again in the 1969 Tasman series.

[Barry Boor]

I love talking about colours.

Does anyone know why Jack chose that turquoise colour for the first F1 car? Or for that matter that strange apple green on his Lotus 24?

It occurs to me that I was not actually aware of Dan Gurney's Scottish connections - re Eagle 1967-68.

[Ray Bell]

Probably a move aimed at getting some of the results Clark and Stewart had coming their way...

As for Jack, I'd say he intended that be the colour permanently, but found (as did so many others... what colour were Team Lotus and BRM at different times?) that it discoloured too easily with oily fingers around them so often.
Someone might have asked Jack this question?

[Barry Lake]

No. I haven't asked him about the colours, but I will add it to my list for next time.

I also want to ask him why he changed his crash helmet types so often over the years. While there were some periods of helmet stability, there are other times when it seemed to be different every couple of races.

[UAtkins]

Speaking of vert....my Dad's colors were a rather nice (sorry...I am prejudiced) pale green metallic color. I posted a picture of the Cooper Maserati on the C.T. "Tommy" Atkins thread and I will insert a picture of Graham Hill (?)in one of the Coopers. I've no idea if he was just sitting in it or if he actually drove it. I am curious to know how they picked their particular colors, as I said, I always liked the colors but never knew howthey were chosen.



These new tools are really nice! Much easier!!

By the way, Speedvision Legends of Speed have had some great shows on lately. One the other morning (I have to tape at 6:00 am) was 1961 British Racing Green, in it I was thrilled to see Roy Salvadori in #18, with Dad and Harry standing beside the car on the starting grid! Very nice. Sorry you guys aren't able to get Speedvision in Australia.

Ursula

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by UAtkins
Speaking of vert....my Dad's colors were a rather nice (sorry...I am prejudiced) pale green metallic color. I posted a picture of the Cooper Maserati on the C.T. "Tommy" Atkins thread and I will insert a picture of Graham Hill in one of the Coopers. I've no idea if he was just sitting in it or if he actually drove it. I am curious to know how they picked their particular colors, as I said, I always liked the colors but never knew howthey were chosen.

http://www.geocities...d8/ghcooper.jpg

These new tools are really nice! Much easier!!

By the way, Speedvision Legends of Speed have had some great shows on lately. One the other morning (I have to tape at 6:00 am) was 1961 British Racing Green, in it I was thrilled to see Roy Salvadori in #18, with Dad and Harry standing beside the car on the starting grid! Very nice. Sorry you guys aren't able to get Speedvision in Australia.

Ursula

So are we... just wanted to see the pic,





I think Don can delete this post when you've sorted it out, Ursula.

[UAtkins]

OK, I fixed that....now? Sorry thought that had been fixed by the new tools....oh well!

Cheers

[Vitesse2]

Yes, you did read it right! British Racing Blue! In late 1946 it was seriously proposed - indeed almost completely decided, signed and sealed - that the British racing colour would be changed from the traditional green to a dark blue, lined with red and white, and with the Union Flag displayed on the bonnet of the car. British enthusiasts were, understandably, up in arms about this, sensing a plot by those infernal foreigners to interfere with the British way of life etcetera. There were furious letters in the press when the news broke and the RAC and others came in for harsh criticism.

It's a strange story, to say the least, but ironically, the origins of these colours seem to have lain in the livery applied by one of the first British drivers to race sur le continent in 1946. I know who he was, but I thought it might be fun to see if any of you know (or can guess or deduce) his identity. (Doug, David McK - if you know, please don't let on!).

Going on from this - were there any moves to change any other racing colours? I've seen no reference to that in the British press, but obviously green would have been available .....

Oh, and apropos of nothing really, this is my 4000th post at Atlas! Unbelievably, I'm now the 51st most prolific poster here .... I must get a life!

[Holger Merten]

Congratulations Richard for your 4000th post. Did you wait with question, until that more or less unbeatable number? Sorry I have no idea, but it would be interesting after our discussion about the german colours (silver instead of white) how important it was with colourcode for nations after the war?

Do we find some more informations? And other countries, any idea they have to change too?

[McSlick]

was it the Campbells with their blue recordcars and boats ????

[Doug Nye]

Richard - congrats or sympathies - you're a terrible example to us all. And no I won't let on - 'cos without researching the answer, I CERTAINLY don't know...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by McSlick
was it the Campbells with their blue recordcars and boats ????

Nope - nowhere near, I'm afraid. A much deeper shade of blue than Bluebird, which was almost French racing blue. From the descriptions I've read, it was apparently almost as dark as the colours used by Ecurie Ecosse a few years later - however, I don't think the driver in question was a Scot.

Holger - yes, I'd been saving this one up! I discovered this little gem while doing some research for Alessandro and Hans at Beaulieu back in July.

And I'm still a long way behind Ray and Mr A ....

[Ruairidh]

I'm looking at a large color double page picture of the Jersey GP in 1947 (closest I can find to 1946) and while a few of the British entrants - Mays (ERA); Ansell (Maserati);Whitehead (ERA); Walker (ERA) all look as if they could be in dark blue cars - none of them seem to have the white and red stripes. So I'm flumoxed too!

[Vitesse2]

He wasn't in Jersey, Ruaridh In fact, he didn't race in any event listed in Sheldon in 1947. However, he was still running the same car in 1948 and 1949, alongside another in the second of those years. Bear in mind that a number of cars of that period could run in GPs through the simple expedient of taking the wings off .....

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Oscar B. Moore?

Stefan

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Oscar B. Moore?

Stefan

Nice try Stefan, but wrong, I'm afraid. This wasn't a special, nor was it eligible for Formula 2. And AFAIK Moore wasn't racing in 1946 - certainly not in Europe anyway. But you're on the right lines thinking sports car ....

[Doug Nye]

Umm - wild hunch - was this a bloke nicknamed 'Vercingetorix' (? spelling??) by the French????

DCN

[Vitesse2]

You have the advantage of me there Doug. I've never come across that nickname in connection with racing. I know who the original was - I've read "Asterix and Obelix"

But guessing you might mean TASO - nope!

[Vitesse2]

As ever, even in adversity, the British sense of humour showed through. A certain G Browne of Beaconsfield pointed out that at least if British cars were now painted blue he would be spared the spectacle of green cars being passed by all and sundry and that it might "confuse the spectators at my side for a while". Nevertheless - he had a serious point to make:

Until our splendid drivers are equipped with real cars, why do they go to the Continent, where they face impossible odds?

A Mr F Juke from Lichfield bemoaned the fact that he was colour-blind "and would probably get mixed up between the proposed blue for the British cars and the French blue".

And an editorial in The Motor declared:

Our racing cars have been left out in the cold in International Grands Prix. Now they must go blue as well.

[dmj]

Congratulations on 4000th post, Richard.
National racing colours were changed a few times in early Vanderbilt times but I know nothing of any latter change, if we discount broadly discussed issue of white/silver German cars.
And I think you Brits could be proud that at least Austin Powers accepted a variation of proposed color scheme...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by dmj
National racing colours were changed a few times in early Vanderbilt times but I know nothing of any latter change, if we discount broadly discussed issue of white/silver German cars.

Nothing I've found so far would indicate a wholesale international change. The press reports are frustratingly vague, as it seems that some people were well-informed about this before it reached the press. The first reference is at one of the Rembrandt meetings (a series of social/conference events held through the war and after to keep racing alive). There was virtually no racing in Britain in 1946, so there was a lot of talking.

However, the provisional decision appears to have been taken at the October 1946 meeting of the CSI.

[dretceterini]

better than Egyptian colors of lilac with red numbers...

[Vitesse2]

Well, either I've stumped you all or nobody really cares!

I thought someone would have mentioned Earl Howe before now. His liking for blue cars is well-known and he was involved in this in various ways as one of the leading lights in the administration of the sport post-War. But of course he didn't race in any post-War GPs ....

The driver in question didn't run in any F1 races after 1949, although he did make an entry for a Goodwood race in 1951 (DNA). His race entries are sporadic, to say the least, but I believe he did run in a number of sports car races as well in the same period.

There are a couple of other other clues which would probably give it to you immediately, but I'll save those .....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....I'd been saving this one up! I discovered this little gem while doing some research for Alessandro and Hans at Beaulieu back in July.

And I'm still a long way behind Ray and Mr A ....

I can't understand you saying that at all...

I've never been to Beaulieu, not even once!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


I can't understand you saying that at all...

I've never been to Beaulieu, not even once!

I was referring to your post count Ray ....

[Paul Parker]

What British driver drove a dark blue presumably single seater racing car in the early post war Continental events from 1946.

The problem is of course the dearth of colour photographs of this period so I am guessing. Pre-war somebody raced their own Riley engined single seater that I think was dark blue. Post war this man bought R7B the ex- Arthur Dobson ERA that was white and much later became red. His name was Leslie Brooke and the original car was called appositely the Brooke Special. So was Brooke's ERA painted dark blue during his ownership?














































The problem here is the lack of period colour photographs so I will hazard a guess. Pre-war Leslie Brooke raced his own ERA Riley engined car appositely known as the Brooke Special, that I believe was dark blue.

Post war he bought the ex-Arthur Dobson ERA R7B that was originally white and by the 1970s was red. He raced it on the continent several times in 1946 including Turin, Milan and Boulogne, so did he repaint R7B in blue and was this the car and driver in question.

[Paul Parker]

Sorry, my original post and amendment were both sent, stupid boy!

[Wolf]

Well, I don't know how much sense will my 'try' make, but Guy Gale? Just checked '49 results I have, and i have no mention of DNS or DNA at Goodwood Trophy, and only him (in Darracq 150C*) at Richmond Trophy... If he is British at all. *shrug*

* would that be Lago-Talbot offset single-seater? Or...

[Vitesse2]

Getting colder Paul. I did say "sports car" was on the right lines when Stefan suggested Oscar Moore and his OBM. Leslie Brooke is a good guess, but it's not the right man.

Wolf: yes, a Talbot. The British press were fond of calling them Darracqs for some unfathomable reason. Now read my post again: I didn't say he was at Goodwood in 49. What I said was that he was a DNA at a Goodwood race in 1951. In fact, I can say for certain he never raced at Goodwood at all! (That statement is half of one of the clues, BTW.) Our man did race a Talbot in 1949 - that was the second car I mentioned, which he ran alongside the first, which was also French, but not a Talbot.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
His name was Leslie Brooke and the original car was called appositely the Brooke Special. So was Brooke's ERA painted dark blue during his ownership?

Apologies for going off at a tangent to this fascinating thread...but was Leslie Brooke related to Anthony Brooke, who also built a car known to some as the Brooke Special?

[Vitesse2]

Doug was right with Vercingetorix (he PM'd me with the real name) - so if anyone knows who that was, they can solve it easily.

O/T - Doug: empty your PM mailbox!!

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I thought someone would have mentioned Earl Howe before now. His liking for blue cars is well-known and he was involved in this in various ways as one of the leading lights in the administration of the sport post-War. But of course he didn't race in any post-War GPs ....

Which is why I didn't plump him down (the color photo of the start grid for the Jersey GP came from a 1974 Classic Cars mag and the next page had a picture of Earl Howe and a drawing of him in a blue GP car.......but the text had the statement that he did not race after WW2.........

As for who Vercingetorix was - you've stumped me............................