Alright. Every so often, I come up with outrageous or just plain dumb ideas, and bring them here for you guys to send me back to the drawing board. Basically, it's because I have no idea about anything mechanical, but it's fun thinking up stuff.
Here goes!
Would it be possible to design an aero package which LIKED dirty air? I have no Idea how that would be possible, but if you could, you'd want to be in it.
along the same lines...Could you design your rear end to really screw up the air behind you? The air is messy enough, and following is tough, but could you come up with a design which made it impossible to follow?
Would there be an advantage in a v-8?
With a smaller, lighter engine, you could lower the centre of gravity, perhaps by running a flat 8, and the sidepods could be much smaller.
How much power would you be down? the car could be far more slippery, and the center of gravity would make the car a dream to handle? would that work?
speaking of sidepods, why not drastically reduce the frontal area, and simply have a small radiator, and then run water tubes on the top of the sidepods, where the air would go between them, while incurring little drag penalty? is that legal?
and to save on weight...what about introducing a piece on the car which was small, and made of lead. it would weigh quite a lot, and it could be part of the diffuser or something. it would add 5 or 6 kilos to the weight of the car. Then, 2 or 3 laps in, the darn thing would fall off! at the final pitstop, it would be replaced. that would never work for a season, but for a single, pivotal race... (I'll go sit with Ken Tyrrell now...)
And does fuel slosh around? What about having a capri-sun style fuel tank, which was airtight, so that as fuel was pumped out, the tank would collapse around it, like a freeze-dried austronaut meal. the "bag" could be anchored, and fuel would never move about, and throw off balance.
as for safety, what about running a steel cable in the gravel traps. it would be far enough in, and right on the ground. there could be several. if a driver just got the corner wrong, he could drive right over top of it, and continue. If he was in trouble, aka Schuey at silverstone, he could flip a switch, and a hook, aka fighter jets, would pop out of the floor, and catch the cable, which would be rigged up to absorb the impact. how about that?
Aero and other dumb ideas from me.
Started by
SalutGilles 1
, Mar 07 2000 02:13
13 replies to this topic
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#2
Art
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 04:59
I can solve the drafting Problem. Hire a Midget with a Shotgun to ride as tail gunner.
Art NX3L
Art NX3L
#3
CVAndrw
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 05:30
Oh, I’m sure that if you can stomach wading through all the FIA regulations you’ll find most of your best ideas highly illegal- that’s what always happens with mine. But I can comment on a few of yours:
A design which makes it difficult if not impossible to follow closely? Yes, and McLaren came up with it in 1984, virtually all the teams adopted the idea, though eventually they moved away from it because the downforce fluctuated too dramatically. It’s called an exhaust blown diffuser, which McLaren is trying to reintroduce this year!
The potential advantage of a V8? Given today’s emphasis on light weight, low center of gravity and general compactness, it might well be a good idea. Unfortunately, the teams in their wisdom decided to ban them and restrict themselves to the current V10s.
Disposable ballast (not to mention 50 kilo wings and seats)? Sorry, but because of Herbie Blash’s experience as Brabham team manager with Piquet and Gordon Murray, he’s wise to the concept, as he’s one of those who invented it!
Well, I must say I love the idea of aircraft carrier cables and hooks. And while we’re at it, let’s give drogue parachutes a try.
A design which makes it difficult if not impossible to follow closely? Yes, and McLaren came up with it in 1984, virtually all the teams adopted the idea, though eventually they moved away from it because the downforce fluctuated too dramatically. It’s called an exhaust blown diffuser, which McLaren is trying to reintroduce this year!
The potential advantage of a V8? Given today’s emphasis on light weight, low center of gravity and general compactness, it might well be a good idea. Unfortunately, the teams in their wisdom decided to ban them and restrict themselves to the current V10s.
Disposable ballast (not to mention 50 kilo wings and seats)? Sorry, but because of Herbie Blash’s experience as Brabham team manager with Piquet and Gordon Murray, he’s wise to the concept, as he’s one of those who invented it!
Well, I must say I love the idea of aircraft carrier cables and hooks. And while we’re at it, let’s give drogue parachutes a try.
#4
SalutGilles 1
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 12:58
well, I guess I won't be replacing Newey at McLaren anytime soon.
do all the cylinder heads have to be of equal size? could someone introduce a v-10 with only 8 real cylinders?
Would a reduction in displacement have the same effect, ie a 2.5 litre v-10? or would it be just about the same size?
what about stroke length? does it hurt if it's really short? i think it might.
do all the cylinder heads have to be of equal size? could someone introduce a v-10 with only 8 real cylinders?
Would a reduction in displacement have the same effect, ie a 2.5 litre v-10? or would it be just about the same size?
what about stroke length? does it hurt if it's really short? i think it might.
#5
desmo
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 15:54
It's a maximum of 10 cylinders. Anything less is fine. Gordon Murray actually tried something similar to your radiator idea, but it didn't work.
#6
Johan V
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 21:16
About your fuel tank idea: I'm pretty sure the fuel in a f1-tank doesn't move about very much. I don't know how they do it, but having 80kg of fuel moving about would be disastrous for the handling.
About your steel cable idea: Hooking the cable could quite easily be done accidentally *and* missing it would be easy as well.
Ferrari used a more reliable (less innovative) system at one of the circuits they tested at (mugello, fiorano). The tire walls were a few meters away from the concreet walls. So the tire walls acted as the 'steel cable'. When Schumacher went of during testing (he was going faster then when he crashed at Silverstone), he hit the tirewall, and that was that, no broken legs and stuff like that.
Johan V.
About your steel cable idea: Hooking the cable could quite easily be done accidentally *and* missing it would be easy as well.
Ferrari used a more reliable (less innovative) system at one of the circuits they tested at (mugello, fiorano). The tire walls were a few meters away from the concreet walls. So the tire walls acted as the 'steel cable'. When Schumacher went of during testing (he was going faster then when he crashed at Silverstone), he hit the tirewall, and that was that, no broken legs and stuff like that.
Johan V.
#7
BRG
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 23:43
Hey, SalutGilles1, these are some real think-tank and lateral thinking type stuff. Or are we entering the twilight zone???
On the fuel tanks point, I think they are foam filled to stop fuel sloshing around. I doubt that a collapsing bag tank would give any additional advantage and there would always be the danger of it snagging or cracking and therefore dangerously leaking.
I do like the idea of two "dummy" cylinders to make a V8 legally a V10, but I doubt if it would be worth the hassle (or the lawyers’ fees).
The out and out cheating idea - well, far be it from me to suggest that such things could ever happen in F1, but I suspect that anything you might think of has already been tried - but of course, no-one would ever admit to it! I never did understand the lead shot ballast in the fuel tank thing that Tyrell got caught on, but we all know that "water cooled" brakes, heavy rear wings etc have been used by various otherwise respectable teams. Back in the early 70s there was much talk of a 4-litre BRM qualifying engine - was it true ? Who knows? (and he’s not telling)
The surface cooling was tried by Brabham but as Desmo says, it didn’t work. But perhaps if there was big enough cooling area, and with modern improvement in aerodynamics, might it be possible? Over to any real engineers - any ideas??
I’m sorry, CVAndrw, but drogue parachutes would be a movable aerodynamic device - anyway, you might use it to paraglide over your opponent in the braking area…
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BRG
"all the time, maximum attack"
On the fuel tanks point, I think they are foam filled to stop fuel sloshing around. I doubt that a collapsing bag tank would give any additional advantage and there would always be the danger of it snagging or cracking and therefore dangerously leaking.
I do like the idea of two "dummy" cylinders to make a V8 legally a V10, but I doubt if it would be worth the hassle (or the lawyers’ fees).
The out and out cheating idea - well, far be it from me to suggest that such things could ever happen in F1, but I suspect that anything you might think of has already been tried - but of course, no-one would ever admit to it! I never did understand the lead shot ballast in the fuel tank thing that Tyrell got caught on, but we all know that "water cooled" brakes, heavy rear wings etc have been used by various otherwise respectable teams. Back in the early 70s there was much talk of a 4-litre BRM qualifying engine - was it true ? Who knows? (and he’s not telling)
The surface cooling was tried by Brabham but as Desmo says, it didn’t work. But perhaps if there was big enough cooling area, and with modern improvement in aerodynamics, might it be possible? Over to any real engineers - any ideas??
I’m sorry, CVAndrw, but drogue parachutes would be a movable aerodynamic device - anyway, you might use it to paraglide over your opponent in the braking area…
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BRG
"all the time, maximum attack"
#8
CVAndrw
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 23:43
Desmo, are you sure about that? I thought the same thing, but I learned that while the FIA regs still allow a maximum of twelve cylinders, the Concorde Agreement specifies V10s only.
#9
Yelnats
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Posted 08 March 2000 - 05:08
And in the same vein, Why not have a powerfull pump evacuate the fuel tanks of air during the race so they can suck in a full tank of fuel in about 2 seconds?
And does a driver "passing water" into a overboard disposal system sound illegal? Jame Hunt used to piss himself quite often when he was really hanging things out "balls to The Wall" he used to call it. Perhaps a usefull weight reduction option!
Why not have the famous undercarrige "board" made of rubber so when a tire blows it slows the bloody car down, not just skid uslessly along the road like the present wooden one does?
Wan't to hear any more? Please respond SVP.
And does a driver "passing water" into a overboard disposal system sound illegal? Jame Hunt used to piss himself quite often when he was really hanging things out "balls to The Wall" he used to call it. Perhaps a usefull weight reduction option!
Why not have the famous undercarrige "board" made of rubber so when a tire blows it slows the bloody car down, not just skid uslessly along the road like the present wooden one does?
Wan't to hear any more? Please respond SVP.
#10
Ray Bell
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Posted 08 March 2000 - 09:37
Top ideas, some of them. I particularly like the drag line...
As for the flat 8, as posted in another thread, you will find that by the time you lift the head high enough to get the exhausts underneath the crank (the big heavy bit in a modern engine) is actually higher than in a Vee engine. ie. c of g of the engine is higher.
Yelnats - please make your rubber undertray idea known to the authorities - that sounds very sensible (except to those following closely in the cloud of smoke generated as the car skids to a stop!).
As for James Hunt, I think that odd. Why? Because I personally watched him just before the start of the Rose City 10,000 of 1978(?) march off to have his pre-race leak. Problem was, he had been caught out during PA interviews etc before the start, so he strode purposefully to a spot behind the nearest ambulance and watered the grass there! Highlight of the race meeting for some!
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
As for the flat 8, as posted in another thread, you will find that by the time you lift the head high enough to get the exhausts underneath the crank (the big heavy bit in a modern engine) is actually higher than in a Vee engine. ie. c of g of the engine is higher.
Yelnats - please make your rubber undertray idea known to the authorities - that sounds very sensible (except to those following closely in the cloud of smoke generated as the car skids to a stop!).
As for James Hunt, I think that odd. Why? Because I personally watched him just before the start of the Rose City 10,000 of 1978(?) march off to have his pre-race leak. Problem was, he had been caught out during PA interviews etc before the start, so he strode purposefully to a spot behind the nearest ambulance and watered the grass there! Highlight of the race meeting for some!
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#11
tak
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Posted 08 March 2000 - 09:48
Is the car minimum weight without fuel, or could a team simply top off the tank on the last lap to meet minimum weight?
#12
Johan V
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Posted 08 March 2000 - 13:33
The car is weight without fuel, so that wouldn't work.
Johan V.
Johan V.
#13
desmo
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Posted 08 March 2000 - 14:41
CVAndrw,
You may be right insofar as it appears that all the teams have agreed to use V-10s until '07. Judging from the context however, it seems likely that the intent of the agreement was to halt ongoing development of 12s, rather than to prevent anyone from trying to compete with a V-8.
Unfortunately, the Concorde Agreement is shrouded in secrecy. All you can find out is from uninformative FIA press releases, if they deign to even give you that, and leaks and rumor. This is a management style popular with those who know their decisions cannot stand up to closer scrutiny by an open press.
You may be right insofar as it appears that all the teams have agreed to use V-10s until '07. Judging from the context however, it seems likely that the intent of the agreement was to halt ongoing development of 12s, rather than to prevent anyone from trying to compete with a V-8.
Unfortunately, the Concorde Agreement is shrouded in secrecy. All you can find out is from uninformative FIA press releases, if they deign to even give you that, and leaks and rumor. This is a management style popular with those who know their decisions cannot stand up to closer scrutiny by an open press.
#14
Yelnats
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Posted 10 March 2000 - 15:58
James said he knew he was driving fast when he scared the piss out of himself on a qualifying lap. He was a remarkable guy and it dosn't surprise me that he would take a leak in front of a crowd before a race.
During the Canadian GP at Mosport in the mid seventies, I watched James try to pass his team-mate Jochiem Mass on the outside of turn three . Jochiem closed the door and Hunt's McLaren spun into the tire-wall below my position at track side. He leapt from the car and strode unto the track to vent his feelings toward his unco-operative team mate when a track marshal grabbed him. James spun around and decked the marshal with a punch to the jaw. He instantly re-alised what he had done and picked the poor marshal up and dusted him off with great apparent ambarrasment.
During the Canadian GP at Mosport in the mid seventies, I watched James try to pass his team-mate Jochiem Mass on the outside of turn three . Jochiem closed the door and Hunt's McLaren spun into the tire-wall below my position at track side. He leapt from the car and strode unto the track to vent his feelings toward his unco-operative team mate when a track marshal grabbed him. James spun around and decked the marshal with a punch to the jaw. He instantly re-alised what he had done and picked the poor marshal up and dusted him off with great apparent ambarrasment.
