25 replies to this topic

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After the fatal crash in the Australian GP, it has been suggested that one method to reduce the risk of a similar accicdent would be to cover the wheels.

Formula 1 has always been seen as an open wheel series, but does it matter that it is? Here are some of my arguments as to why covering the wheels would still make sense.

1. Formula 1 cars have always evolved either through development or rule changes, and covering the wheels is just another step

2. F1 racing cars are seen as a world away from the cars that are driven every day by us normal folk. Covered wheel cars would have more similarity. These cars would obviously still be purpose built racing cars without requiring the shape of an ordinary car (as in touring cars, NASCAR etc.)

3. Covering the wheels would give sponsors more bodywork area to use. This would also mean that some of the very aerodynamically important front and rear wings could be "lost" or reduced through rule changes allowing closer racing.

4. The open cockpit, covered wheel Le Mans cars (e.g. Ferrari 333sp and Audi R8) are still very attractive cars. Even some of the closed cockpit cars (e.g. Bentley EXP 8) are beautiiful to look at.

So does it matter? Comments please.

[Spot]

Tell you what, why not just run WSC cars instead? It'd have the same effect.

[MattFoster]

thanks but no thanks

[Dents]

I heard (i think) David Hobbes mention that they ought to cover the rear wheels. I thought about this, and worked up a representative model, just to see what it may look like.



still looks like an F1 car (mostly )

[Ali_G]

Have to say that they look class. So at least cover the rear wheels.

Niall

[Darren Galpin]

Covering the wheels would make the cars go faster. Most of the drag generated by an F1 car comes through the rotating wheels, as they are rotating in the opposite direction to the flow of air, so covering them up means that the drag is reduced. You would then get less overtaking, as there would be less of a hole in the air to get a tow from, and the cars would be faster. Covering the wheels also wouldn't stop them coming off in the event of a crash, as the suspension could still collapse.

What really made Villeneuve's accident bad was that his front wheel hit Schumacher's rear wheel, flicking the car into the air with even more force. A pad behind the wheel, like those used in Indycars some years ago, would have mitigated the size of the accident. However, wheels will always be shed in such high speed accidents, as the forces involved are so huge.

Also, removing the rear wings wouldn't necessarily create closer racing. The wings help to generate the hole in the air to get a tow. Yes the cars could follow each other more closely through corners if the wings were removed, but there would be much less of a tow to help you get passed. What you need is a barn door of a rear wing to create huge amounts of drag without generating much downforce. Keeps the sponsors happy, creates more of a hole in the air, and allows more drafting.

[Ali_G]

Suppose your right Galvin.

one other thing. There is less passing in F1 today because the cars give off less drag. Not because the cars give off turbulence.

Niall

[westendorf]

Real race cars don't have doors or fenders. To say that 'sponsers' would love it I can think of two who might not ... that might be Michelin and Bridgestone. They are the largest sponsers I can think of. Speeds would go way up. GFW

[Nasty McBastard]

but isnt it usually (USUALLY) front wheels that go flying off?

[Greg L]

Wouldn't the rear wheel covers need to be EXCEPTIONALLY strong to withstand the type of impact seen in Melbourne? It seems to me that even if Ralf's car had those covers, with the speed at which JV's car approached, they would probably have been torn off and JV's front wheel would still have riden up on RS's rear wheel. Not that I think the idea is all bad, but would it really prevent this type of accident from occuring?

[tifosi]

Why does everyone keep bringing up about the wheels coming off. That wasn't the point of topic. The point made by David Hobbs, which evidently had been brought up by Schumacher was to put some type of guard to prevent wheel to wheel contact. Nothing to do with wheels coming off.
When he said it, I though the same thing Spot said, Well we already have the WSC cars, so what? But I have to admit, Dents drawings look pretty good, much better than I thought, and would prevent the launching of cars ala JV on Sunday. Still not sure I'm for it though. Lets face it that whole episode was freakish. I think Schumacher's idea was more of a type of guard to help prevent rubber to rubber contact, not an actual whole fender. That type or arrangement probably wouldn't have helped JV, but it would prevent some of the wilder spins and things when rubber touches.


Heh Dent, is that thing wide enough to accept a boxer engine. Since you don't have to worry about the technical aspect of actually making the engine work, how wide of a V can that handle?

[RJL]

I could see some kind of a (preferably black) bumper bar fitted around each wheel, I guess. If all the cars had the bars fitted to a stanard height, it would help lessen the consequences of wheel to wheel contact.

[RedFever]

yes, two bars coming out on each side, exacty at the mid-height of a front tire (the guy touching you from behind, touches you with his front tire) would avoid the flying of the incoming car (two tires that touch, touch while moving in opposite directions in the point of contact, therefore you need to double the speed to understand the forces at work). Hitting the bar would probably cause the guy in front to spin or maybe temporary lose control, but maybe we would not see anymore flights like Gilles, Didier and Jaxs

[Top Fuel F1]

One announcer on Speedvision for the Aus. GP said MS was in favor of covers on the rear wheels.

[RedFever]

yes, Schumi said that last year, he was in favor of a devise that would not allow contact between front and rear tires

[Mila]

wait a second, then what's to prevent a spinning front wheel from climbing a bar or fender? granted, the energy from wheel-to-wheel contact would be eliminated, but a bar or fender would simply be a license for more contact between cars. with the exposed wheels at least (some of) the drivers can respect the consequences of wheel-to-wheel contact.

[aross]

I know it's not the same, but about a decade and a half ago, they started putting sidepods on karts to stop the kind of counter-rotating wheel contact that generally launches open wheel cars. The side pods went between the wheels on either side as close to each as could be managed, and at the outer edge. It seems to have worked, though it did mean that side to side contact, once avoided at almost all costs, increased. But even when it did happen, it wasn't so bad most of the time.
Maybe a similar solution would helm in some cases. The problem is the worst cases are front wheel to rear wheel and for that you need a substantial bumper at least at the rear.

[markzed]

Yep - something solid that will halve the current upward force when front and back touch.
Alternatively, have the rear bumper stick out high and far enough so no contact can be made.

I gotta say Dents, that's a damn fine colour on your car.

[RedFever]

"wait a second, then what's to prevent a spinning front wheel from climbing a bar or fender? "

if the bar is free to rotate on itself, the wheel will not climb it

[JDeRosa]

Originally posted by RedFever
if the bar is free to rotate on itself, the wheel will not climb it

That's a good idea....................
But after seeing Dents' cool pic with the rear wheels covered, just out of curiosity I would like to see the front wheels covered, maybe integrate the covers into the nosecone/wing???

Just for a laugh

[bigblue]

Nerf bars on a F1 car?

[Manson]

Originally posted by aross
I know it's not the same, but about a decade and a half ago, they started putting sidepods on karts to stop the kind of counter-rotating wheel contact that generally launches open wheel cars. The side pods went between the wheels on either side as close to each as could be managed, and at the outer edge. It seems to have worked, though it did mean that side to side contact, once avoided at almost all costs, increased. But even when it did happen, it wasn't so bad most of the time.
Maybe a similar solution would helm in some cases. The problem is the worst cases are front wheel to rear wheel and for that you need a substantial bumper at least at the rear.

There's probably just as many flips in Karts these days as they just jam it in there with the pods as protection. More protection = more contact. I know a couple of guys that quit 'cause they were tired of the bashing and crashing.

F1 is an open-wheeled series. If you cover the wheels, you might as well have WSC cars (as someone said).

Open-wheels rule!!!

[pRy]

A front wheel hitting that protection at the speed Villeneuve hit Ralf would have no difference, the protection would be ripped off and the tyres would contact. All you had to see is how many bits the rear wing was turned into to see it wouldn't help one bit.

This imo is far more attractive, far more sexy, and far more F1 :

[BT 44]

Dont be ridiculous. If you like covered wheel, go watch the ALMS series.

BT

[Mila]

pRy, looking at that photo, who could disagree?

Clark through the Masta kink, right?

[Option1]

If you're going to put covers on the rear wheels, why not on the front. The aerodynamists would LOVE it. Think of the speeds they could hit with that sort of aerodynamic protection.

Mind you Max would hate it. He'd have to introduce grooves for the fenders.

Personally, I think it's another knee jerk reaction. I wish they'd bring back proper sportscars in sportscar racing, but I don't want to see F1 turned into sportscars.

And yes pRy that is far far sexier - wonderful shot.