21 replies to this topic

[VJS]

Hello.

Sorry for my english.

The home page for the visit to "Juan Manuel Fangio Museum" in Balcarce, Argentina.
(Only in Spanish).

http://fangio.virtua....net/museo.html

The information in the page is basic, Only Photography.

Un abrazo.

[Ray Bell]

Another newcomer... another welcome... we'll look at your site, but you must promise to hang around and enjoy our forum!

First thing, of course, is to answer the roll call thread, but you have to note that you are new here.

Welcome, VJS

[fines]

I take it that you're Vicente J. Sillitti, so you should promote your other site as well:

http://fangio.hypermart.net

[TonyKaye]

Welcome Vicente, I'm pleased that you have decided to take the plunge.

I should add that, via Felix, Vicente has been very helpful with my South American Formule libre record.

[Ray Bell]

There's a couple of cars in there that are replicas (maybe some real, too) of cars Fangio drove in the thirties.
If only one knew the language...

[fines]

Ah, and the MP4/4 McLaren is actually an MP4/3!

[Felix Muelas]

Hey, Vicente !!!

Wonderful to see you around !
Will you convince Gustavo to join us too?;)

Definitely, this is the place to be !

Un abrazo

Felix

[Michael Müller]

Hello Vicente, welcome to the forum.
I'm missing the Ferrari 166 FL on your homepage, has it been removed from the museum?

[Gil Bouffard]

I have had Vincente's site linked from mine for a while. I like to find the special ones..

His Goofiness

Gil Bouffard

[VJS]

Hello for all.

Thanks for welcome.

For the Ferrari 166 FL is property of ACA (Automovil club Argentino) and In the moment of the visit, The F166 the ACA this in its museum of the city of Buenos Aires.
Not this permanent one in neither museums
(Like the two Simca Gordini's)



Hola a todos.

Gracias por la bienvenida.

Sobre la Ferrari 166 FL es propiedad del ACA y en este momento se esta exibiendo en su museo de la ciudad de Buenos Aires.
En algunos momentos esta en Balcarce, en otros en Buenos Aires.
(Lo mismo pasa con las dos Simca)


PD: Hola Felix! Siento que me estoy complicando mi vida.
O comienzo urgente un curso de ingles o voy a tener problemas con malos entendidos...
En cuanto a Gus, le dire de mis andanzas... )

[VJS]

Hello Fines.

Yes. Only one problem..
(Estoy desconsertado en realidad)...

The McLaren MP 4/3 powered by Honda ?
MP 4/3 powered original by TAG....

MP 4/3 driven by Ayrton Senna ???
(Prost and Johanson)

(¿?)

Un abrazo!

[fines]

Well, Vicente, that's not unusual. You can change a complete livery in just a few hours. In this case they just put on Honda decals and Senna's name with the Brazilian flag, they didn't even bother to change the number "1" on the nose cone! But a number of design details will tell you it's in fact an MP4/3.

It's probably not even an original chassis, rather a mock-up of used parts. Otherwise you should find a chassis plate in the cockpit, but even this could be a fake. Show and museum cars are very often like that, I can remember having seen a Benetton/Renault on show at the Bitburger brewery (then sponsor of the team) in early 1995, before it even raced! Of course, on closer examination it proved to be a mock-up, with no chassis plate affixed and no engine and gearbox at all.

[VJS]

Fines!

Yes.

My Friend Gerardo Sabaris confirm me.
Find a chassis plate in the cockpit... and read McLaren MP4/3.
I did not remember...

This car are original, but no stickers of Ayrton Senna And Honda.

Sorry for error.
(it is written "my confused" ?).

[Michael Müller]

Vicente, can you find out the chassis number of the ACA Ferrari 166 FL? Together with Egon Thurner (who dropped back a little bit the last weeks in this forum due to other obligations) I'm busy with a research on the early Ferrari monoposti. I wrote already some time ago directly to the museum, and also to the Ferrari Club Argentina, but no reply from both.

[VJS]

Hello Michael!

I cannot confirm but I believe that both chassis that I buy the ACA were the 011F and the 013F.

The chassis 011F was sold and soon restored with the motor of the 013F (Formula Libre) (2000cc sc)

the chassis that this at this moment into the ACA is a 013F with motor of F2 (2000cc without compressor). (NO CONFIRM).

In the next days, i am going to go to the Museum of the ACA and promise to verify i myself these data.


In spanish for more clarity:

No puedo confirmartelo, pero creo que los dos chasis que compro el ACA fueron el 011F y el 013F.

El chasis 011F fue vendida y luego restaurada con el motor del 013F
(Formula Libre) (2000cc con compresor)

Si fuera asi, el chasis que esta en este momento en manos del ACA es un 013F con motor de F2. (2000cc sin compresor).

Proximamente voy a ir al Museo del ACA y prometo verificar estos datos.

Un abrazo.

[Michael Müller]

Vicente, history of 011F is rather clear, although it may be important to mention that engine # 013F most probably has been built in already during active life of the car, and not only during restoration.
We also believe that the second car was # 013F, but there are some signs that it is no F-series car, but the newer GP49 type. The bodywork is rather similar - although not fully identical - with that of the GP49, and the first appearance of the car was as late as Dec 1949 only at the GP Gral Peron, together with the GP49 works cars. # 011F was delivered already in June 1949, and at that time the second ACA car - # 013F - was also nearly ready. Reports say that this was "built on a longer chassis". There had been considerable payment delays by the ACA for 011F, and consequently Ferrari would have delivered 013F only against prepayment, which obviously arrived so late that the 2nd car was only handed over end of the year.
There are 2 possible scenarios:
1. 013 F really was a LWB car, and Ferrari stopped completion after the financial difficulties of the ACA became obvious. After receipt of payment somewhere in autumn 1949 they finished the car by using body parts of the then new GP49 type.
2. The car presented to the ACA people in June 1949 as their unfinished 2nd car was a standard SWB F-series car, and when the ACA failed to transfer the agreed $ 11.000, the car was used as works car. When payment finally - probably unexpectedly - rolled in, Ferrari instead took one of the new GP49 cars, fitted it with a 2 litre supercharged engine, and shipped it to Argentina together with their own works cars for the Temporada. As the ACA had paid for 013F, consequently they received also a car with c/n 013F, even if such car was technically a GP49 type, and not a F-series car.

Besides the c/n of the actual car in Argentina, it is also of vital interest to know the wheelbase, 2160 mm (F-series) or 2320 mm (GP49), or may be even something in between. The report that 013F was built on a longer chassis would be correct, if indeed it is a GP49, but that does not mean automatically that the car shown to Srs. Borgonovo and Anesi in June 49 was in fact already the LWB car. On the other side, one of the F-series works cars - probably 07F or 09F - also was LWB, although we do not know the exact dimensions, but contrary to 013F this car was equipped with the standard F-series bodywork. So it may well be that 013F really already in May 1949 was launched as LWB, and with the newer bodywork it could be considered as a form of prototype for the new GP49.

Would be very interesting for our research if you could find out more details of the car's background.

PS 1: please look also after the engine number of # 013F

PS 2: would be fine if you have a look at this old thread
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=15801
Still lacking details of the Menditeguy car, especially c/n, origin, and further history.

[David McKinney]

I can't add anything to your discussion on which car the second ACA Ferrari was, Michael, but may be able to throw some light on Menditeguy's mount. If you're talking 1951, I believe he drove the car owned by Pires once or twice (as did Abrunhosa). He may have driven the same car again in 1952, conceivably under the ACA banner. Just a thought...

[Michael Müller]

David, hereafter quote from one of my postings in my "Unidentified" thread:

"On 9 March 1952 at the "VI Gral Peron" he drove his Maserati 4CLT, but one week later at the "GP Eva Peron" he had this Ferrari. He drove the car also on March 23 at the GP Uruguay, and one week later at the GP Montevideo, the car was entered for resp. by Onofre Marimon (no participation of Menditeguy at this race).

Earlier that year most probably the same car was driven by Ruben Abrunhosa at Gavea (20 Jan 1952), at Boa Vista (3 Feb 1952), and at the General Peron GP Buenos Aires (9 March 1952). Obviously Menditeguy bought the Ferrari from Abrunhosa, but I do not know where Abrunhosa accquired it (could possibly be 08C or 12C, but also one of the F-series F2). After Montevideo the car again disappears."

Pinheiro Pires is listed for the "VI Gral Peron" on 9 March 1952 at Buenos Aires with a Ferrari 125 under "other entries", but for sure this is not correct, as the 125 was driven by Abrunhosa in that race. Other entries by Pires are not known by me, and also for 1951 I have no appearances of this car in South America.

[David McKinney]

I suspect Menditeguy may have driven two different cars in 1952. Sorry I can’t quote sources without more invesitgation, but I think his BA car was a 125 and his Uruguay one a 166, perhaps an ACA car. My assumption is that Marimón drove the 125 in the 30/3 Uruguay race. My further assumption is that the same car had been driven by Abrunhosa in earlier 1952 races: in fact one report describes Menditeguy’s BA mount as “Abrunhosa’s”. If indeed this is the Pires car, the owner’s entry in the 9/3 BA race could have been taken over by Abrunhosa (or do you have different race numbers for them?)
The car’s apperances in 1951 Brazilian events, as far a I know, were as follows:
22/3 Boa Vista...............Pires 4th
--/6 Boa Vista................Pires 4th
14/7 Gavea hillclimb........Achard crashed fatally
I do not know its chassis number.
On a related topic, do you know whether the car Marques raced in both 1952 Uruguay races was Landi’s?

[Michael Müller]

My actual source is Tony Kaye’s “South American Formula Libre Races 1946-1952”, which I believe is currently the best stat available, as it accumulates most of the knowledge and information of TNF members.

Concerning Ferrari, we are sure that only 4 “early cars” (subject of our studies) had been in South American ownership: 2 tipo 166 FL from 1949 owned by the ACA - # 011F and # 013F (still waiting for confirmation), another 166 FL from 1948 (originally tipo 125 # 04C) owned by Chico Landi resp. the Brazilian Automobile Club (ownership details still need to be clarified), plus this mysterious Abrunhosa-Menditeguy tipo 125.

For the GP Uruguay on 23 Mar 1952 only one ACA Ferrari is listed, the winning car of Fangio. For Gonzalez, normally standard driver for the 2nd ACA Ferrari, a Maserati 4CLT was entered. Menditeguy acc. to Tony’s list entered the private tipo 125. So where was the 2nd ACA Ferrari? One possibility is that the car was not ready, as one week earlier at the GP Eva Peron Gonzalez damaged it (collapsed wheel), the other is that is was driven by Menditeguy. I believe in the first option, because Menditeguy was no standard ACA driver, and the tipo 125 most probably then would have been entered by somebody else.

One week later at the second Uruguay race – the GP Montevideo – both ACA Ferraris were raced by Fangio and Gonzalez, which could mean that Gonzalez’ car was fully repaired now. The 125 in fact is listed for Onofre Marimon, as mentioned already earlier. No participation of Menditeguy at this race.

Your further assumption about Abrunhosa driven the 125 earlier in 1952 is fully correct, I stated this already. Tony’s list unfortunately does not include the 1951 Brazilian races mentioned by you, but any details about this Ferrari 125 for 1951 are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for me. In order to identify the car, up to now we searched for a car disappeared in Europe after the 1951 season, if really already raced in South America in early 1951, we have to switch over to end 1950 in Europe which would narrow the possibilities.

At the first Montevideo race on 23 Mar 1952 Chico Landi drove a tipo 375, and his 166 FL was given to Francisco Marques. Although he was 2nd to Fangio, for the second race one week later he switched back to # 04C for reasons unknown to me. This is based on Tony’s list, if you have documentation that Marques raced # 04C also in the 2nd event, it would be interesting to compare Tony’s and your sources.

[David McKinney]

Tony and I are working closely together on the South American stats, Michael. It's other pressure on my time that has prevented us getting further with 1951 and 1952 data. We'll certainly keep you posted...

[Don Capps]

First, Welcome to The Nostalgia Forum, Vicente! A pleasure to have you with us.

Second, I never cease to be amazed at what goes on around here...