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Racism in Motorsports & Alesi factor :mad:


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#1 @vi

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 16:12

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT pleading for/against Narain or any other racer(s)/people. Just stating some things which you should know.

Formula 1 is a racist community. It hates and mistreats people with dark skin, or lowly nationalities.

The most recent example of this are the back door happenings against an Indian racer, Narain Karthikeyan. Obviously, you wouldn't hear about it in a strictly "white" controlled media. I wonder what would be Bira and Pascal's reaction be. How about banning me? It would only be another vindication.:rolleyes: Professional journalism my foot. We treat black people and Indians as slave. Say that a bit loudly Thomas Scheckter.

It is a very long story. All most as long as Narain's motor racing career. Case in point, this article by Venkat Ganesan. Jean Alesi read this article and actually stooped so low as to say that Narain will NEVER race in Formula 1. This is the same Alesi who still gets dreams of a "National French Team". :lol:But of course, this Alesi reaction is only the culmination of a long conspiracy against Narain. The tip of the iceberg, so to say. It's no news that Narain Karthikeyan and Thomas Scheckter were team mates last year and the Stewart Ford Formula 3 Team. And Narain was blown apart by Thomas' "sensational" performance in his "rookie" year. Right? Should be surprising than that this very Narain actually qualified on pole for the Macau GP in his Carlin(after getting sick of Stewart), broke the lap record, set the fastest lap, and then crashed out in the race trying to better it. Later in Korea, he won both the races. Thomas' performance was, well, slightly less than satisfactory. The result is there to be seen. Poor Thomas. Must be the car gone wrong.;)

It doesn't take a lot of thinking to put things together. In an interview with an Auto magazine, Narain all but directly accused of the team discriminating against him on the basis of his colour and race. I say "all but" because that is what he did; trying to save any chance of a brilliant future destroyed by a few racists and pathetic "nationalists". This is gonna hurt some people. How can one accuse the great Jackie Stewart? Now that he has proved his credentials so openly, I think its time for a knighthood. Arise, Sir Jackie Stewart. You did Her Royal Majesty proud by showing that black Indian his place.

And consider how Jaguar have virtually hijacked his career. A clause in Narain's contract with Stewart F3 Team included a F1 testing opportunity with Jaguar. For the past 5 months, that’s right, Jaguar have been "postponing" the test. Can you come to Spain? Uh, no test today. Bug off. Some professionalism that.

Some people think F1 is sport. Some say its business. Those who think they are smart tell you it's a combination of both. Any which way, it doesn't make sense. Even if it can be assumed that it is pure business, it doesn't make sense. How many people go to Silverstone for the GP? A cricket match, boy is this some comparison to f1?, a cricket match in India attracts some 90,000 people. Limited, of course, by the stadium capacity. India has got one of the largest F1 viewer base. So much so, that I could actually write a book about some tobacco manufacturers getting involved in "kick backs" to some prominent people in the National Broadcasting agency, DoorDarshan. A certain Mr. E. and EU were also involved, behind the doors, of course. Leave no traces, eheheh. Things changed dramatically, what with the EU agreement and stand as they are today. This is reflected in a new Tobacco Sponsorship Act in India, which bans all tobacco sponsorship, direct/indirect in sports. The Act had been prepared a decade ago. It wasn't the red tape.

The point being made is, it’s not the commercial sense, nor the sporting aspect of things which have been used to destroy Narain's career. If Narain is a bad driver, than I shudder to think what one would call the Burtis and the Heidfields. He is as good or as bad as any one of them. Mugen Honda weren't fooling when they initiated a discussion for a Formula Nippon drive. All this, infact, when this driver started with the handicap of any racing infrastructure or support.

Take my advice: If you are dark skinned or belong to "lowly" countries like India, and are planning for a racing career, forget the on track mileage. Instead, go to a good plastic surgeon. Maybe, just may be, Jean Alesi will like your white Indian face.:rolleyes:




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#2 Lantern

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 16:42

Do you have any real quotes on this? What were you sources? Or is this just one big opinion? If not then I would really like to see some of these things for myself because I am not about to stand for something like racism.

It would change my opinion on quite a few people.

#3 Greg L

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 17:05

@vi, before you accuse people like Alesi, Bira, and Pascal of racism, you better have some damn good proof or you are WAY WAY off base. I despise racism, but I despise unfounded claims of racism even more.

#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 17:16

Eh? Narain was at PSR on the backing of Ford India. The second PSR driver is traditionally screwed, at all levels, including F1. Narain wasnt 'special'

#5 Moraes

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 17:47

Holla!

Isn't Alesi married to a japanese model named Kumiko? I'm sure her skin is not exactly white. I'm sorry but I find hard to believe he is a racist kinda a guy. He maybe sound a little bit patriotic,sometimes, but I'm not sure to which country. Italia, where his parents came from and home of his beloved Ferrari or France, where he was born. In a interview, years ago, Alesi said he lost a prize(a Elf schoolarship, I think) because they wanted a pure french driver and not a sicilian/french driver despite Alesi being the fastest amongst the french drivers taking part in the tests.

Ross Stonefeld is spot on. Always the second stewart/PSR driver is treated, let's say, unfairly. I won't discount a racial cause for picking Thomas as their first driver though. But maybe other things came into play when the team decided who their "favorite" was going to be, like Thomas being the son of a former world champion with a well known surname. On the other hand, racism is still pretty much part of our civlization. Let's not pretend it's not there anymore. I'm from south american and a few friends that went to visit europe(england,france and switzerland) said some europeans still believe in some kind of racial superiority. Even here, where there's a multitude of races living together, there's still crimes motivated by racism or prejudice.

Another thing. Pedro Paulo Diniz once said in a interview after colliding with Takagi in a Brazilian Gp: " That jap should open his eyes". Does an asian or asian american would find that comment racist?

#6 Schummy

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 17:52

I think Narain was(is?) a very good F3 driver in UK but I don't think he was particularly stunning. Surely he was still in development and great things are yet to come for him. I remember one Marc Hynes winning F3 (Burti, Button) and becoming out of F1 or great drives elsewhere.

The mention about Heidfeld is unfortunate because Heidfeld was more or less equal to Montoya in F3000 and won easily in 1999. I feel Heidfeld is a future frontrunner in F1 (this year's first GP seems to corroborate that)

I remember FIA (aka Max/Bernie :) )saying days ago about being interested in GPs in China, Indian, etc. I think the modern commercial (and cinic?) focus in F1 is interested promoting new markets. The FIA is threatening Imola and Silverstone to make room for Asian GPs. Then it doesn't fit with the conspirational theory.

I have read many times in UK motorsport magazines about UK drives not being promoted as others nationalities (brazilians, for instance). I think it is arguably but it is an interesting opinion. Also, I can see in CART there is not a lot of US people; a lot of "lesser" nationalities fill the grid.

Honestly, I don't see Narain's case as a blatant instance of racism. What I think is that commercial interests drive F1 market, more than strict racism, IMHO.

Best regards

#7 Pascal

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 18:14

@vi,

To say that I am surprised by the content of your post would be an understatement, to say the least. But why do you think I would have a problem with your opinion? Daring me to ban you simply shows me that you don't know much about the way this Bulletin Board works...


Nevertheless, I have several questions regarding some of the points you wrote about:

- When and where did Jean Alesi say that Narain Karthikeyan would "never race in Formula 1"?

- What makes you believe that the same Alesi dreams about a French National Team? Last I checked, Ferrari is not French...

- And finally, what makes you believe that the specific example you are giving (without giving all your sources) is a sure sign of racism in general in the microcosm of F1?

I'm not saying that Karthikeyan didn't get unfairly treated, but has it occured to you that in nowaday's Motorsports, talent was not enough to reach the top? And this has nothing to do with skin colour. In France, a whole generation of talented driver got sidelined because they were unable to provide the huge sums asked by F1, or even F3000 teams. I'm pretty sure similar examples could be found in many countries, and for drivers of many shades of skin colour. I would like to remind you that before he got in an accident that left him partly paralysed, Jason Watts was seriously being considered as a test driver by several F1 teams. And for those of you who don't follow F3000, Jason's skin could not be defined as exactly white. The deciding factor is money in my opinion. If a talented black driver was to emerge tomorrow with enough funding to get in an average team, I'm pretty sure no one would turn him down on the because his skin doesn't have the "right" shade of white. In that regard, money is definitely colourblind...

From what I know of him, Narain Karthikeyan is a real talent, and I sincerely hope he'll get his chance to prove it in Formula 1, but villifying the sport for not giving him the opportunity yet seems a bit over the top, in my opinion.

#8 Boston Killer

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 19:03

Ahem,

Let mass murderer say a few things here, alright?:)

Call me blind or call me blind but I sense some angry Atlas BB regular using second(third,fourth,fifth?) identity.
Who are you @vi?
At least name your source of which you took those "unbelievable"(literally) quotes.

BTW, Pascal
last time I checked Alesi wasn't completely French either :D


#9 coyoteBR

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 19:53

I think some F1 (CART, IRL and f3000 are no exception) team owners care about the color of their drivers money, not skin. :rolleyes:

#10 mel

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 20:21

I must join with Pascal in being surprised at the references to Atlas admins in the first post of this thread. :(

#11 Wolf

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 22:12

Well, I'll take a (semi-)educated ™ guess that it has more to do with Bira's and Pacal's defence of integrity of people who wrote and published certain Atlas News item in another thread.

Back to the topic, maybe it has something to do with him coming out of 'Third World' country- in which, perchance, sponsors do not see many a opportunity (and hence are not standing in a queue to sign him on), and is presumed unlikely to provide money required for a seat by himself...

And example of Lewis Hamilton (driving karts, champion IIRC, sponsored by McLaren since he was twelwe, and most likely to show up in F1 sooner rather than later- for why else would they be investing in him) doesn't support your conspiracy theory, @vi.

#12 ChessNH

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 22:39

@Vi,
Insert foot in mouth, what you say is not anything against a race, color or creed but life in general. I don't even want to get on this subject, but is it race that keeps me out of the NBA, no it's talent.

Narain is a good driver, but only 22 people in the world make it into F1 every year. Narain should be happy he's working his way there and getting a test drive. I hate it when people of a different color don't get what they want and pull out the race card. I'm not saying it dose not exist, but it exists on all levels in racing and corporate business.

Deal with it, because you don't have a choice

#13 mono-posto

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Posted 10 March 2001 - 22:56

You make your own success.

I will repeat...

YOU MAKE YOUR OWN SUCCESS!!!

Sometimes it seams you have more obstacles in front of you then someone else, and on the surface that may seem unfair. But at the end of the day we call life, the only person repsonsible for your success or failures is YOU.

Everything else is just excuses.

As wrong as it is in our society, yes a 'man of color' has more obstacles then it seams others have. But if you think you can't succede then just as Colin Powell, Tiger Woods, Martin Luther King what it took for them to achieve thier success.

Their own damn blood, sweat and tears. Just like every white, black, asian, african successful person.

Narain should just be thankful and grateful that he is out there doing what he apparently loves to do. Or is he in it just for fame and fortune?

I am your typical white anglo-saxon red blooded American. I bust my ass day in and day out to support my family, no-one has ever giving me anything on a silver platter, and you will NEVER hear my complain about it.

I make my own future regardless of any obsticale in front of me. I would suggest that you and Narain go do the same thing.

#14 @vi

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 01:01

First, sorry to keep you all waiting for comment. I hope you understand there are different time-zones.

Since there are so many questions from so many people, I’ll try to answer them all one by one. If still someone is not satisfied, well, then there are also people who believe that the earth is flat. Your belief’s are your own.

Lantern: Do you have any real quotes on this? What were you sources? Or is this just one big opinion? If not then I would really like to see some of these things for myself because I am not about to stand for something like racism.

It would change my opinion on quite a few people.


Greg L: @vi, before you accuse people like Alesi, Bira, and Pascal of racism, you better have some damn good proof or you are WAY WAY off base. I despise racism, but I despise unfounded claims of racism even more.

The questions seem similar. First, I didn’t say that Bira, Pascal etc are involved in motorsports racism. Yes, I DID say that I would be surprised if this article was not removed, I DID egg them on, but that was because I read a taliban type :rolleyes: statement by Bira. You know, that stuff people forget to read before posting “first”. And the happenings concerning “Our Logs”™ I don’t think there are many forums out there who would tolerate any such discussion. Certainly no author would like to touch the subject. Admins etc. of Atlasf1, thank you for your tolerance. The intention was to egg you on, true, and if anyone is offended, I register my sincere apologies.

Secondly, I stand by my comments. Also the Alesi statement. I am not sure I can name names just yet, but trust me, Jean Alesi DID make that comment after reading that article. Does he have to stoop so low to settle scores? Pascal, why not ask Alesi to do an encore? I am sure he’ll oblige.

Ross Eh? Narain was at PSR on the backing of Ford India. The second PSR driver is traditionally screwed, at all levels, including F1. Narain wasnt 'special'

Moraes: Holla!

Isn't Alesi married to a japanese model named Kumiko? I'm sure her skin is not exactly white. I'm sorry but I find ……….Always the second stewart/PSR driver is treated, let's say, unfairly. I won't discount a racial cause for picking Thomas as their first driver though. But maybe other things came into play when the team decided who their "favorite" was going to be, like Thomas being the son of a former world champion with a well known surname……etc. etc.


ChessNH @Vi,
Insert foot in mouth, what you say is not anything against a race, color or creed but life in general. I don't even want to get on this subject, but is it race that keeps me out of the NBA, no it's talent.

Narain is a good driver, but only 22 people in the world make it into F1 every year. Narain should be happy he's working his way there and getting a test drive. I hate it when people of a different color don't get what they want and pull out the race card. I'm not saying it dose not exist, but it exists on all levels in racing and corporate business.

Deal with it, because you don't have a choice


Schummy: I think Narain was(is?) a very good F3 driver in UK but I don't think he was particularly stunning. Surely he was still in development and great things are yet to come for him. I remember….

I am a white skin(sic) myself. I don’t like the idea of taking up hypothetical causes to try score some points to satisfy my ego. Lastly, I am not a great desperate fan who wants Narain in F1 or on moon. I have never been Narain’s fan, probably never will be. I put this post forward because, as I have said, I have had access to information most people out there don’t have. I also strongly take objection to ChessNH’s comment that Narain is playing “cards”. He didn’t. He hinted, yes, and I know Narain is the last person to say such thing. He’d rather suffer in silence, as he has all through his career. If he actually commented, his career would be doomed. Which team owner would want a driver who’d level such politically sensational charges?
There are also quite a few talent spotters in the forum. I am surprised by Ross’s statement, for whom I have greater respect for his experience in racing. How much, what shall I say, “adjustments” to the car does it take to make a “fast” driver a “slow” one. Ross you should know. If Narain has not been as explosive as I know he his, then the reason lies with team bosses who always found an ego to massage by keeping Narain slow. Carlin is a glorious exception. But that is only because Narain raced for the team when they weren’t the best, and clearly impressed Mugen & Carlin with his talent.
Schummy, I dare say I have fair understanding of what happened back doors a few years ago. It’s not conspiracy theory, and frankly I am glad that the tobacco czars have lost the interest in promoting “motorsports”. It’s a long story.
And Moraes, don’t be offended, but how the hell does a marriage prove it? If I have, say, a black wife(sic), does it mean I can not make racist comments and act in improper ways. Do I become a saint? Some people have ebony fetish and some have asian. May sound gross to some. Lets not drag the sexual orientations of Alesi or any other person into this as this will be even harder to prove! This is just irrelevant to what is being discussed.

Pascal: @vi,

To say that I am surprised by the content of your post would be an understatement, to say the least. But why do you think I would have a problem with your opinion? Daring me to ban you simply shows me that you don't know much about the way this Bulletin Board works...

I have answered that, hopefully :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, I have several questions regarding some of the points you wrote about:

- When and where did Jean Alesi say that Narain Karthikeyan would "never race in Formula 1"?

- What makes you believe that the same Alesi dreams about a French National Team? Last I checked, Ferrari is not French...

- And finally, what makes you believe that the specific example you are giving (without giving all your sources) is a sure sign of racism in general in the microcosm of F1?
I'm not saying that Karthikeyan didn't get unfairly treated, but has it occured to you that in nowaday's Motorsports, talent was not enough to reach the top? And this has nothing to do with skin colour………


Jean Alesi said that soon after the article got published. Where, I don’t know. I don’t have access to spy cams.

National French Team etc. Pascal, you may also ignore that for some hours a day there is a sun over head(well at least here), that the name of this planet is Earth and it wouldn’t make any difference. Are you sure you are being truthful to yourself. Or is it just ignorance? I find it hard to believe. Spend some time on itv-f1 and planet-f1 searching for Alesi comments and you’ll know. Sweet innocence. Or just ugly feigned ignorance.

Oxymoron. Read your post again. I KNOW talent is not the only thing to reach the top, else quite a few people from this forum too would be racing. Yes, there are only 22 seats(24 soon), and as I said, it doesn’t bother me one bit whether Narain makes it or not. What cannot be disputed, is that his skin color and race did work against him throughout his career. The Stewart experience of last year and the Alesi comment, as I have said before and most people have conveniently ignored, is just tip of the iceberg.

mono-posto: You make your own success.

I will repeat...

YOU MAKE YOUR OWN SUCCESS!!!

Sometimes it seams you have more obstacles in front of you then someone else, and on the surface that may seem unfair. But at the end of the day we call life, the only person repsonsible for your success or failures is YOU.
Everything else is just excuses.
As wrong as it is in our society, yes a 'man of color' has more obstacles then it seams others have. But if you think you can't succede then just as Colin Powell, Tiger Woods, Martin Luther King what………..


Who can argue your comments. That, you see, was not a question. When did I say that Narain should be given it on platter just because he’s dark complexioned? But shouldn’t one be allowed an equal opportunity to at least prove one’s talent, discounting the obvious hurdles that one like Narain has had to surmount in his career.

I think I’ll check up once more after 10 hours or so and comment. But that would be it. My purpose was to open the eyes to this aspect of racing, which is neither sports nor business. I’ll repeat, Narain is just an example, and I couldn’t care less for all he makes the grade or not. Surely there have been greater drivers who never even reached this level just because of lack of finances. I don’t argue that. But as much as that I cannot argue that race and skin color have been the dominant factor in Narain’s career. Pure racial prejudice. Interpret and accept/reject to your heart’s content. Finally, some humour…

boston killer: Ahem,

Let mass murderer say a few things here, alright?

Call me blind or call me blind but I sense some angry Atlas BB regular using second(third,fourth,fifth?) identity.
Who are you @vi?

All I can say is, check “Our Logs”™. ROTFL. Seriously, if it matters, I have been following the tech forum for almost a year and enjoying Ali’s jokes, got registered about 4 months ago, didn’t post, ever, and have followed the reader’s comments for the past few days. Check “Our Logs”™. Check my unique IP. All my IP are belong to you, eh, whatever……:lol:


#15 WKAYE

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 01:32

@vi,
In every race there are 3 kinds of people .
1- The Good
2-The Bad
3-The Fu@king Stupid

I don't care what colour your skin is , but when you come here and make such a blanket statement while hiding behind " I'm not sure I can name names" , well lets just say I give you a 3 . :rolleyes:

#16 Nasty McBastard

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 01:37

just wondering...Narain Karthikeyan.. he was the dude who kicked some arse at the korean superprix thingy end of last year right?

#17 George Bailey

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 01:38

Quote

Originally posted by @vi


Secondly, I stand by my comments. Also the Alesi statement. I am not sure I can name names just yet, but trust me, Jean Alesi DID make that comment after reading that article.

Jean Alesi said that soon after the article got published. Where, I don’t know. I don’t have access to spy cams.



See my problem is you stand by your accusation of Alesi, but don't seem to be sure exactly how you know what he actually said. If you're going to tell the world someone said something, it's good to be able to provide a source rather than say "trust me". You joke about not having a spy cam, but actual reporters use cameras and tape recorders because it is important to quote people directly, not just paraphrase something someone you can't name may have overheard Alesi say.




#18 BlackCat

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 01:44

Aint Alesi a tad on a dark side himself :)

#19 redgirl

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 02:08

"Obviously, you wouldn't hear about it in a strictly "white" controlled media."


Is that so? I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that I was living in apartheid-stricken South Africa, @vi. I suggest you remove that rather large chip from your shoulder, get a life and stop posting stuff you can't/won't prove on forums like this.

Jeez... first we have discussions about being gay affecting drivers, now we have discussions about a driver being "racist". BTW, did Alesi give a reason why Narain would never make it F1? Possibly he didn't think the guy was good enough as a racer? Possibly, Alesi himself was making a sarcastic comment about F1 - to the tune of exactly what you are saying. Maybe he, too, believes that F1 is racist, and was only stating something like "Huh, yeah, I know what it's like around here, there's no way he'll succeed - because of the attitude of people in F1" [my words, used as an example] - Have you thought of that?

There should be one basic rule on these bloody forums: Engage brain before opening mouth (or utilising fingers).

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#20 Pascal

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 02:14

@vi, as you probably expect it, I have some points on which I wish to reply to your last post...


Quote

Originally posted by @vi
Jean Alesi said that soon after the article got published. Where, I don’t know. I don’t have access to spy cams.

I'm sorry pal, but that's not good enough. I too could come up with an outrageous imaginary quote without giving any reliable sources, and it would not deserve any more credit than yours, that is none. So unless you are finally able to provide such information as which media reported such a definitive statement, I have no other option than to see it as misinformation, or even potentially libellous material.

Quote

National French Team etc. Pascal, you may also ignore that for some hours a day there is a sun over head(well at least here), that the name of this planet is Earth and it wouldn’t make any difference. Are you sure you are being truthful to yourself. Or is it just ignorance? I find it hard to believe. Spend some time on itv-f1 and planet-f1 searching for Alesi comments and you’ll know. Sweet innocence. Or just ugly feigned ignorance.

Good lord! I might come to think that you are one step short of insulting me personally... :rolleyes:

Anyway, let me enlighten you about that "French team" nonsense that some of the British media find entertaining to perpetuate to this day. Once upon a time, a guy named Guy Ligier dreamed of owning a purely French F1 team. He actually reached his goal, thanks in large part to his connections and his personal friendship with many French political figures, among them François Mitterand. The Ligier team won several races, and Jacques Laffite found himself in position to fight for the title for several seasons. Then, in the early-eighties, trouble started. Peugeot killed a project they had to produce a Talbot-badged turbocharged V6 F1 engine, and chose to concentrate on rallying (you may note that history was to repeat itself 20 years later). This engine was to be used by Ligier of course, as the team was partly sponsored by the PSA Group, and had been renamed Talbot Ligier. This started the team's decline, until it was finally bought by Flavio Briatore and then sold to Alain Prost. Prost inherited the Mugen engine, a good unit, but lacking in development. He knew that Peugeot was about to pack its bags from Jordan, and went to see the company, figuratively waving the French tricolour in order to convince them to get interested in the challenge of staying a bit longer in F1, with a French team this time. Peugeot took the bait, and most of the public declarations that followed from Prost were meant to keep their partner happy. Alain Prost is too bright a fellow to ignore that in todays world, borders are meaningless to reach success in Motorsports, but nobody had told Peugeot yet...

And about Alesi, you are the one coming up with wildly suspicious claims, so it's your responsibility to come up with the exact quotes for the alleged Alesi comments you seem so quick to throw at our face. I find it highly unlikely that a man like him, son of an immigrant, married to a Japanese national, would be naive enough to play the nationalistic card in a team using an Italian engine (Acer, né Ferrari), a Spanish Team Manager (Villadelprat), a British Sporting Director (Walton), an Argentine second driver (Mazzacane), a British Consultant on special projects (Barnard), and a Brazilian co-boss (Diniz).

Quote

Oxymoron. Read your post again. I KNOW talent is not the only thing to reach the top, else quite a few people from this forum too would be racing. Yes, there are only 22 seats(24 soon), and as I said, it doesn’t bother me one bit whether Narain makes it or not. What cannot be disputed, is that his skin color and race did work against him throughout his career. The Stewart experience of last year and the Alesi comment, as I have said before and most people have conveniently ignored, is just tip of the iceberg.

If people ignore your comment, that should give you a hint about how actually believable it is...


Oh, and then later you write...

Quote

My purpose was to open the eyes to this aspect of racing, which is neither sports nor business.

That would actually be fine with me if you hadn't added such thing as...

Quote

Check “Our Logs”™. Check my unique IP. All my IP are belong to you, eh, whatever……:lol:

So my question to you will be quite simple: which point are you really trying to make?

#21 sticks&stones

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 02:18

Hmmmm...interesting topic!
I've read about Narain, and have been willing him to do well as I think having a black or asian driver in F1 is LONG overdue. In so many ways, F1 seems to be stuck in a time warp, where, the stars are white and rich, and the women wear tight clothes and wave lollipops. I can't comment on your views on Alesi, or on what he might have said(although i agree with you when you say that the fact that he's married to a japonese lady is completley irrelevant), but I do think that the lack of black/asain drivers in F1 is something that should be seriously discussed. It is not just an unfortunate occurence, but there are very real reasons behind it, which CAN be addressed. This must be realised or else nothing will ever be done as people will claim that its just bad luck that there has been no driver of colour(i hate putting it like that) in F1's history.
Wow, this is my second post on this topic today! Its wonderful that this is being talked about!


#22 Wolf

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 02:43

Heh, I almost forgot- there was a Siamese driver, but that doesn't count, right? :p Or has everbybody missed that fact too? Name the driver if you can. :) Bira might help you, if you know what I mean...;)

#23 Greg L

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 03:01

I was trying to avoid writing in this thread again, but the statements by @vi are so over the top that I just couldn't stop myself. "Some people have ebony fetish and some have asian. May sound gross to some." So now you are saying that Alesi married a Japanese woman simply to satisfy an Asian fetish???? I cannot believe you are saying this!! I agree: if a driver is denied a racing seat simply because of the color of his skin, it is wrong. BUT, there isn't a shred of evidence coming from you to support this, and your other statements (especially concerning Alesi's supposed racism) are so idiotic they boggle the mind. Come on, @vi, get with it . . . :rolleyes:

#24 Indian Chief

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 03:05

@vi, NK complained about the No.2 driver treatment at PSR because of Tomas' father, Jody influencing the bosses of the team. This is the first time I have heard of racism as the reason. I don't think its true.

Quote

Formula 1 is a racist community. It hates and mistreats people with dark skin, or lowly nationalities.


??? Go ask any team owner whether he would prefer a dark skinned Schumi-beater or a white midfielder. I think that their answers are pretty obvious.





#25 Indian Chief

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 03:06

Also, I am not sure if Alesi has ever even heard of Karthikeyan! These guys don't really follow lower formuilae, AFAIK.

#26 Indian Chief

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 03:25

Quote

I sense some angry Atlas BB regular using second(third,fourth,fifth?) identity.


heh heh. I can assure you guys that I am not posting under two names.:D The IP numbers (or whatever they are called) will prove that.

It isn't inconceivable that others from India are posting here - I know a huge number of people who watch F1. I read somewhere that F1 has the highest TV ratings for any sport in India, except cricket!

#27 Moraes

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 03:49

Let me understand your line of thought. So when a man likes a white woman and marries her is because he is in love but when a Alesi(sicilian) merries a non white woman is because he has some kind of fetish?
I think people are confusing patriotism with racism. Alesi said he wanted a national team. big deal. Fittipaldi built a national brazilian team in the late seventies called Copersucar and later Fittipaldi. The car was built,designed and driven mostly by brazilians. Do you think Fittipaldi is a racist because of that? I don't think so.
It's not just because the whole world seems to have adopted this dogma of a one global market is the best for everybody that we have to forget our roots. Don't be fooled, it's not the cultural barriers that are being destroyed by globalization, It's the cultural background of the weakest countries that is being replaced by the McDonald's culture


F1 is pretty much a white sport, I don't denied that, but Takagi,Nakano and Montoya don't fit the description of a white man. Ok the japanese guys are from a rich country, but Montoya and Roberto Guerrero are colombians, Senna,Piquet,Fittipaldi,Barrichello,Pace are brazilians. Ceccoto is a venezuelan. Reutmann is argentinian. The Rodrigues brothers were from Mexico. They're all from third world countries. Some, more miserable than India. So I think it's not impossible for someone from a thrid world country or a non-white or non white from a third world country to find his way to the pinnacle of motorsport. Probably it's harder, but not impossible.

#28 Nikolas Garth

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 03:53

@VI,
Do you also have proof that Ronnie Petersen is still alive and living in hiding???

#29 henryting

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 04:11


From my opinion, you got it wrong.
F1 is like the olympics or international football.
It's very international with drivers, teams, manufacturers from all over the world. Just like Cart, its multinational. Now if you are talking about NASCAR or Indy, then perhaps.

Hondas, Ferraris, Williams, Benettons, McLarens etc all won their share of titles. But the WDC is a different story. There's less than 30 drivers in the entire world that gets selected to drive in F1. You don't see Russians, Chinese, Turks, Indians because unless the country has a history of participating in F1, none of the drivers from these countries will be selected. For every available open slot for a driver in F1, perhaps there are hundreds of qualified candidates to choose from. I hate the day when F1 driver gets their seat through either political, financial or special circumstantial means.

#30 MattPete

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 04:15

Quote

Originally posted by sticks&stones
Hmmmm...interesting topic!
I've read about Narain, and have been willing him to do well as I think having a black or asian driver in F1 is LONG overdue.


Dude, he's neither black nor Asian, he's Indian.



#31 MattPete

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 04:24

The reason that Karthikeyan is having trouble getting a seat is the same reason Alex Barron is having trouble getting a seat in CART: Money.

What helps bring money? Nationalism and a famous last name. Those are the reason's that Luis Garcia and Jeff Andretti had rides in CART, respectively. In that same vein, the last name "Scheckter" doesn't hurt one bit.

BTW: it's not like Tomas Scheckter is the poster boy for the Aryan Nations -- if he's like his uncle, he's Jewish.



#32 LeD

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 05:41

I think you're all being a bit hard on @vi

I think he's a very well-balanced chap

You know....

chips on BOTH shoulders :)

#33 JayWay

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 06:42

Quote

Originally posted by LeD
I think you're all being a bit hard on @vi

chips on BOTH shoulders :)


You said 'hard on'.

#34 @vi

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 06:53

I was about to post soon after Pascal's reply. But I waited and it allowed all other racists to gang up and do what they do best. There are many comments and replying to each one, though not impossible, is going to be an exercise in futility as these people are thorouhgbred racists themselves and find it difficult to face the truth. The only comment worth replying to is by a person who questions my intentions when I talk of fetishes(Greg L?) etc. I am glad. That particular comment from me was about as relevant as the initial comment about Mr. Alesi having a Japanese wife.

Even then, I find it hard to ignore all the comments. I said it in the begining of the post itself that there is no way I can force a change of belief. A frog living in a well thinks that is what there is to the world. Humans are much worse then such frogs. Some people are just ignorant of the ground realities. Almost everone has replyed in a fit of hormones. Without reading the discussion and considering all the points therein. Let's score some quick points, shall we? Most have taken it at Alesi value itself. Apparently there is nothing more for them. Such comments are the gems of the discussion.

Then there is the Kohinoor itself.

Pascal, no one is going to cheer you at how quickly you were able to reply. I know your conditioned brain may be having some problems absorbing, no, recognizing the truth, but then I can't help there. Where I CAN help is in your reply. There is one word for the crap you have churned out: Troll. You have taken things out of context, written huge stories to fan the ego of other racists like you, and still completely remain ignorant to truth. Intentionally. I wouldn't like to launch any attack on you. You are beneath contempt.

Did someone, I mean did ANYONE actually read before posting? Sample this CRAP™ from Pascal:
If people ignore your comment, that should give you a hint about how actually believable it is...

This, from a person who claims of being professional journalist. It would be funny if only it weren't so tragic. What kind of professionalism is this: don't read and keep hitting reply. Thank you for baring your soul. I know where you stand now. Your comments have all the maturity of a 45 year old. Take away four decades.

As for Alesi's comment about NFT, which may I remind you blinded racists, is only a small part of the discussion, well, Alesi made one such statement less than 40 days ago. It's actually quite irrelevant, but I know some people have made a career of crapping about margins, so there. And it was reported in all worthwile sites. As I said, racists like you have only selected vision. You like to crap about the structure of the program without caring for the effect it's execution has. I won't provide any links or such. What is the point of explaining to racists that they are racists? That Alesi statement, and the "other" statement made by Alesi are only a small tip of the iceberg. Alesi, IMHO, is a saintly person compared to "others".

I can provide more than sufficient proof. What would be the point? Will it prove that Alesi had "racial" intentions while slamming Narain? No. Will Narain admit to all that he has to endure? No. Accepting that would kill his remaining chances of racing career, and more importantly, be an admittance to his defeat to racists. What "proof" do you want? A link to some story will convince you? Of course not. An email? Well, emails can be faked. Shut up I know. This is crap. Idiot.That is a fake email. And even if the proof is found, what then? The people involved are simply too influential, and the charges too hazy.
You see, there is no end to this. No point in creating a kangaroo court. I have said it before, and I'll say it again. Probably the racists will see it his time. No one is disputing the money and other obvious factors to the situation. Please read the posts again. Top down. But there is no denying that it has been the skin color and his nationality that has been the dominant factor in deciding Naren's present.

What have I got to loose? My job and credibility. Just to satisfy a few mindless racists like you. I always delete the mails and other messages after reading them. This one, I didn't. Go ask Mike Lawrence what I mean. I am still going to include some stuff simply because a lot of prominent people have been mailed about this discussion. Editors of newspapers, FIA etc. I know the end result will be zero.
The name etc have been -X-ed. The number of -X- is in no relation to the original number of characters. Those who matter and have actually got a functional brain will be sent a complete mail. I don't think anyone on this board needs that. Besides, Bira's "Our Logs"™ specialists can probably find out the email services in seconds. Still.


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Hi -X-
...........But really speaking don't take me wrong
motorsports isn't that rosy..... . But don't take me wrong, I sincerely
pray that my predictions should be proved wrong, since
motor racing is racist. They look down at `colored
people'. Even the article got a pounding from Jean
Alesi, stating that Narain will never drive in F1.
.........

-X-


Does that make the racists, sorry, the rascals, oops, the prascals, I mean the Pascals happy? Of course not. It's made up. Yeah. He's a moron. Shooting from his mouth. Moron. Idiot. He should shut up.
Yeah right. Because all of you are wrong, and want to remain thus. Truth looks so strange in this world of selective disinformation.

Mahatma Ghandi once said :First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Are we still struck at the fighting stage yet. Trust me, doesn't matter at all. Because outside this message board and into the real world, a black skin and Indian nationality is still struck at the "ignore you" stage. Rejoice, racists.

PS: Just took a look at some of the "shots" being taken. More than proves racism.



#35 desmo

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 07:22

:lol: Hilarious posts @vi. If this isn't a joke, I hope they don't let you near sharp objects.

#36 @vi

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 07:26

Racism is hilarious? Desmo, I have lost all the respect I had for you over the past year. This is ridiculous.

#37 Nikolas Garth

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 07:28

Quote

Originally posted by @vi
Racism is hilarious? Desmo, I have lost all the respect I had for you over the past year. This is ridiculous.

Racism is not funny, but your ludicrous interpretation of events, racism & reality, are laughable.

#38 LeD

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 07:34

Hey!....steady on, @vi

You'll throw a piston, ranting on like this

#39 markzed

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 07:35

I know for a FACT that Jean Alesi is definitely NOT racist.
I know because I talked to him.
(But I can't tell you when or where or how).;)


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#40 @vi

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 07:58

makzed, blind or what? read my last post(rant yeah) and you'll know on whom the joke is. Moron.

#41 Nikolas Garth

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 08:09

@vi,
Don't forget to wipe you bummy.

#42 markzed

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 08:38

@vi,
I read the last post and according to the Ghandi scale of argument-winning, you're ahead of me.
You're up to the fighting bit and I'm still stuck in the laughing stage.
:lol:



#43 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 09:31

Want to talk about Racism? Do you know who Lewis Hamilton is? He's the #1 ranked karter in the world. He's 15-16, he's been under contract/support to Mclaren for the last few years. He's black

If there's any racism there, its because in addition to talent Ron Dennis recognised the added marketing availible to him

#44 Criceto

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 09:32

My first ever post in RC. Probably my last.

@vi, you just lost credibility in my eyes. I have been reading this thread as a somewhat extreme presentation of an issue that should be addressed. But now apparently because I disagree with you that classifies me as a racist.

Well I've been called a racist before. By the person who wanted me out of a job to fulfil their own agenda. It was a lie then, and it is a lie now.

I have been physically attacked and sustained serious injury while defending a black man against a group of thugs of my own colour.

But you obviously know better. I'm a racist for not agreeing with you.

I have taken verbal abuse for actively helping another of a different colour when they needed it.

But because I don't agree with you, that counts for nothing apparently.

So be it, you obviously know my mind far better than I do. But I will tell you this. When someone like me gets fed up with this topic and wanders off, you can bet your bottom dollar that the people who might actually need to change their ways will have blocked their ears long ago. And I might ask you to consider how constructive that might be in the long term.

In all this thread, finally, I am saddened that one name has so far only appeared once. Jason Watt. If it wasn't for his motorcycle accident, there is every likelihood that he would be in Formula 1 by now. He was streets ahead of Heidfeld, Junqueira, Minassian, and the top teams knew it, and were starting to clamour to get him.

I met him once, and exchanged a lot of good tales with a personable young man who was very much a future star, and who would have been an F1 marketing dream. I am delighted to see that the Den Bla Avis Panoz team have given him the chance, "despite" his skin colour, "despite" his ongoing physical handicaps, to continue racing in the very highest echelons.

That's part of the solution. This thread is still part of the problem.

#45 desmo

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 09:49

The whole theory of racism being a factor in motorsport would be more credible if it made any sense for people to behave in a racist manner. I think any team would welcome a driver of color who had the goods. It sucks that finances come into play in deciding who does or doesn't get a chance to showcase their talents, but all else being equal if I were an F1 team manager, I'd love to have a driver of color. The publicity would be all to the good and I fail to see any downside at all. I think the lack of diversity in top-level motorsport is more an issue of cultural and economic disparities than racism or sexism per se. I think surely it is only a matter of time before the field in F1 becomes more reflective of the people that inhabit our planet, and I welcome it. It will only be good for the sport, as it has in all other sports. In the meantime, ugly and unfounded accusations only discredit their sources.

#46 lulup

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 10:22

All I can say is why Jaguar team not give NK a chance to prove himself???
I think Jaguar should let him try.His contract is including a F1 test.
So,let him try.If he's crap.OK!kick him out because he's crap!but now it's delay,delay and delay...................I don't know why!!!

Quote

Originally posted by Nasty McBastard
just wondering...Narain Karthikeyan.. he was the dude who kicked some arse at the korean superprix thingy end of last year right?


NB:not just kicked SOME arse,He kicked EVERYBODY arse!!!he was very outstanding.He was leading From first practice to race finish.

#47 Pascal

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Posted 11 March 2001 - 13:08

This has gone way too far already. :evil:

I didn't want to remove that topic when it was started because, despite my suspicion that @vi's ultimate goal was to get us to ban him to make a point about our supposed part in the "conspiration", I wanted to see if he was ready to back his claims by something other than wild accusations. So far, he has been unable to do so, and instead has chosen to focus on blanket character assassination on the whole lot of this board's members. This is a convenient way out of any discussion, and if it comforts him in his delusions, so be it.

Quote

Originally posted by @vi
This, from a person who claims of being professional journalist.

I see that @vi actually never bothered to read my profile. I happen to work in the software industry, and I never claimed to be a journalist myself. A lot of other people, some of them working at Atlas F1, do this job with a lot more talent than I'll ever have.

As for the remainder of @vi's last post, especially the load of insults directed at me, I won't care to reply. For a man so quick to quote Ghandi, @vi seems to have a surprising fondness for verbal abuse and violence.