82 replies to this topic

[BullHead]

Going on MotorsTV too now.
Looks like this is going to kick off with a bit of buzz.
I really hope it doesn't fade too quickly like the 'F2' thing did.
IMO another bottom rung series is more relevant than higher up ones. FPA lasted a decent period, but it's profile was not sustained. If this keeps the BRDC association, the profile should remain healthy.

http://www.formula4....rs-tv-deal.aspx

[BullHead]

So Mark Webber was at Silverstone giving the trophies for the third race of the inaugural event.
A TV highlight package will be shown in UK on ITV4, just after the BTCC coverage. Nice.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107086

Edited by BullHead, 29 April 2013 - 16:43.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It looks like a half-decent little series actually.

[Clatter]

Why are ITV showing the race a week after it has taken place?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Because it's such a small series it's never going to have live TV.

Look at it another way, British F3 used to be delayed a week and shown really early in the morning.

I'd rather be part of the BTCC programming block than be live in neverneverland.

[Clatter]

I accept it's too small to be live, but it could be shown the same weekend. A week later seems silly.

[TimRTC]

I'd rather be part of the BTCC programming block than be live in neverneverland.

Although at Brands only one of the three FFord races was actually shown anyway and that was not live, the first was on Sunday afternoon and not show, nor was the last race of the day which they didn't even mention as it took place behind the post-race BTCC interviews.

[Rob29]

I accept it's too small to be live, but it could be shown the same weekend. A week later seems silly.

Still looking for coverage of British F3 open series-second round at same meeting as F4 last weekend

[Ross Stonefeld]

British F3 hasn't raced yet this year, what you're thinking of is the club series for much older cars.

[BullHead]

A bit late posting this, but I watched the first programme after the BTCC show. I thought it was good. A little untidy, commentary could be improved, but all in all not bad. I like the emphasis on it being the starter series for people wanting in on single seaters. Nice driver profiles and insights into making the leap from karting.
They're at Brands this weekend I beleive, and the ITV4 programme will be next Sunday I guess.

[Ericoz]

Hi Guys got on to this topic very late because CAMS who control the Aussie motorsport have decided to take on F4. The Aussie fan is more likely to be a fan of saloon racing as many of you know with our V8 series. We struggle like hell with FFord, FVee is okay for numbers but cars can cost $60K AUD! The Radicals and Wests are growing, only because they are being imported from the USA when our dollar was on parity. Bringing in a new category will take numbers away from these lessor formulas but what scares me is the suggested cost of running a F4 car, 100,000 Euros is  150,000 AUD and I can tell you that it will be double that! We run a F3 series and have only 10 cars, half just make up the numbers so why run F3 and F4. Your thoughts are most welcome

[HistoryFan]

I wonder why there are just 10 cars on the F3 grid? Australia had also a Formula Holden championship. What's the matter with Formula Racing in this area? Just money?

 

There will also be a Formula 4 series in South America 2014 onwards with chassis from Signature.

[BullHead]

F3 is struggling everywhere I beleive. The F4 format is being promoted by the FiA lately as part of their 'tidying up and ordering' the motorsport ladder in single seaters. However, the F4 they are talking about is a different thing to the BRDC F4. I think....

Formula racing is just... expensive..

Hell, club saloon car racing is cheaper than national championship karting..

Edited by BullHead, 13 November 2013 - 08:29.

[HistoryFan]

almost 30 entries in the FIA F3 - don't think that's a sign of struggling.

I think Australia is more focused on V8 Supercup /GT Racing and not Formula Racing anymore.

[Prost1997T]

There's a French F4 championship that began in 2011 and is still running. The 2012 champion (Alex Baron) made a few starts in USF2000 recently. A few others like Norman Nato and Pierre Gasly moved onto Formula Renault 2.0.

Edited by Prost1997T, 13 November 2013 - 13:24.

[BullHead]

Well BRDC F4 series is underway again this year, and having watched the first highlights programme, I've got to say it's still looking impressive. My viewing / following of it dropped off last year as the actual race filming and especially commentary was a little grating and uninteresting, but it looks altogether a tighter package now, and David Addison now commentating immediately makes it more watchable. The cars sound good too.
Apparently there are youngsters now on the grid representing 12 different countries, so that shows it must be being taken as a serious level by the motorsport community internationally.
I shall try to watch a bit more of it this year.

[rhukkas]

Formula 4 is a nothing class. Something you do because your either not good enough or can't afford F Renault Europe or F4. it'll be Formula 2 MKII. be gone in a few years

[paipa]

I haven't followed lower formula racing at all for years now so I even needed to look it up online what is out there. GP2, GP3, WSR 3.5 and 2.0, Auto GP, Formula 3 and although I'm not sure it belongs here, but Formula Ford. How would you rate their relevance on a scale of ten? For example, a few years ago GP2 seemed great but turned to **** while WSR gained significance and I never knew anything about the rest. Which ones are worth keeping an eye on at all?

[noikeee]

GP2 is still the premier category but has been packed full of rich kids so it has had a couple unimpressive years for talent, with Formula Renault 3.5 (aka World Series by Renault) seriously rivalling it in relevance. However this year it looks like it's gone a little bit more the GP2 way back again, with the likes of Vandoorne and Marciello in there as highly promising rookies.

 

Below these two main categories, GP3 and Formula Renault 2.0 (particularly the Eurocup) are the main direct feeders for each, respectively. However there's another series at this level which is probably just as strong at the moment which is the FIA European F3 championship. F3 and GP3 cars are quite equivalent, whereas the Formula Renault 2.0 is a little slower and so many drivers use it as their very first car coming out of karting, whereas starting out in GP3 or F3 right after karting is far less common (although that's what Max Verstappen is doing this year). People who drive GP3 or F3 Euro have usually done some sort of lesser known lower level championship first (like other F3 championships, or F4, or Formula Ford, or anything other random and slow), or have come from FR2.0. So FR2.0 is maybe a small step blow GP3 and F3.

 

AutoGP doesn't really register seriously on the ladder, it's mostly for people who've stalled and couldn't find a seat in a proper series.

[aguri]

The BRDC Formula 4 is slightly different specifications to the FIA Formula 4 - which now has series in Italy, Japan, South America and Australia. The Ferrari Winter Series and Formula Masters China cars are also fairly similar and I expect that if these comps continue into the future they will also adopt Formula 4 regulations. 

 

The aim of formula 4 is to provide wings and slicks racing in countries where a national Formula 3 comp is expensive. It is envisioned by the FIA that after karting a young driver will race Formula 4, before moving onto something like the British Formula 3, and then the Euro Formula 3, and then maybe GP2 or WSR. 

 

In time it will replace a lot of the current struggling junior formulas like formula ford, audi, bmw etc. Which is a good thing because it simplifies the pathway from karting to F1. The key for the FIA is getting British, German, French and American series up and running. The main competitor is obviously the 1.6L Renault Series.

[aguri]

On a slightly but not totally unrelated note, I wish the FIA would release a set of regulations for a Formula 5 championship for amateur club racers.

 

No wings, 1.0L motorcycle engines, slicks, and simple chassis. It could replace the ageing Formula Vee and Formula Ford. 

[aguri]

Formula 4 is a nothing class. Something you do because your either not good enough or can't afford F Renault Europe or F4. it'll be Formula 2 MKII. be gone in a few years

 

It makes more economic sense to have all the comparable formula 4 classes running with the same regulations. Imagine if there were individual series running in Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, China, North America, South America and Australia all using the same regulation cars. Would be cheaper for everyone involved.

[zanquis]

Well maybe F4 can be successful if transition to F3 euro series can be done well, basically replacing the national F3 series as they cost too much for young talented drivers and provide us with too much rich boy drivers.

 

Maybe the FIA should talk a bit with the manufactors and work out a good formula.

Make a standard based on the FR2.0 as it seems a perfect starting class for most. Each region could be sponsored by a different manufactor, for instance the West Europe could be Renault based, while VAG/BMW or Mercedes would be more suited for north Europe, Ford to do GB , FIAT powered for south/east Europe. and then hold a couple of meets to mix it up. Toyota/ Honda for japan, and well someone for USA. If the specs are properly made any manufactor can build competitive engines and chassis.

Then basically do something similar for 2 levels higher. just clean up the mess of feeder series we have now. I find it hard to compare between GP2, FR3,5, GP3, F3, FR2.0, etc. Cause now we have 5 main levels where most driver will skip some on their road to F1.

[BullHead]

I think there is a need for something budget and learning wise between karting and F3. Traditionally this was Fford, but that has gone aero (the MSA championship spec) anyway, and doesn't appear to have the support / appeal that the new F4 offers.

[aguri]

Well maybe F4 can be successful if transition to F3 euro series can be done well, basically replacing the national F3 series as they cost too much for young talented drivers and provide us with too much rich boy drivers.

 

Maybe the FIA should talk a bit with the manufactors and work out a good formula.

Make a standard based on the FR2.0 as it seems a perfect starting class for most. Each region could be sponsored by a different manufactor, for instance the West Europe could be Renault based, while VAG/BMW or Mercedes would be more suited for north Europe, Ford to do GB , FIAT powered for south/east Europe. and then hold a couple of meets to mix it up. Toyota/ Honda for japan, and well someone for USA. If the specs are properly made any manufactor can build competitive engines and chassis.

Then basically do something similar for 2 levels higher. just clean up the mess of feeder series we have now. I find it hard to compare between GP2, FR3,5, GP3, F3, FR2.0, etc. Cause now we have 5 main levels where most driver will skip some on their road to F1.

 

 

This is basically what is already happening. Most of the FIA F4 comps are using a different engine supplier. Rumor mill suggests Ford will provide engines for a new British FIA F4 series starting 2015 or 2016. Abarth(Fiat) already supply the Italian and South American series.

 

I think what we are witnessing is a consolidation of all the feeder series. F3 cars are probably too hard to go into straight after karts for most drivers so there needs to be a middle step. Long term F3 will only be run in Europe, Japan, Britain and Germany, plus special Grand Prix like Macau and Zandvoort. So it makes sense that a driver might race F4 before moving onto British or German F3, then Euro F3.

 

I don't know how much longer Formula Renault 1.6 will last.

[Prost1997T]

At best there are two competing paths to F1 (Renault 1.6->2.0/Eurocup->3.5 or FIA F4->F3/GP3->GP2), at worst a hodge-podge of series that dilute the talent pool and raise costs. Is there really any need for FR1.6 and F4 to be around at the same time? Or all these national F3 series when European F3 is well established?

[DampMongoose]

If anyone is interested in attending the F4 when they support the Blancpain Sprint meeting at Brands Hatch on the 18th May, the promo code of BPGT gives you a general admission and a Paddock Hill grandstand ticket for £15.00 if you book online today.  That's compared to £25 ticket + a further £10 for the grandstand on the day...

[DampMongoose]

Or BPGT2014 for a fiver off the weekend ticket.

[rhukkas]

At best there are two competing paths to F1 (Renault 1.6->2.0/Eurocup->3.5 or FIA F4->F3/GP3->GP2), at worst a hodge-podge of series that dilute the talent pool and raise costs. Is there really any need for FR1.6 and F4 to be around at the same time? Or all these national F3 series when European F3 is well established?

 

... and having less classes will somehow decrease costs? 

 

What having more classes does is actually help suppress cost, at least at the lower levels. It's simply supply and demand. Demand for race wins is high so if you reduce the number of classes you are limiting the supply... then prices would go out of the stratosphere. Worse than they are now. Imagine having all the wealthiest drivers in one single recognised official ladder system.... no one would even get a look in at all.

Edited by rhukkas, 09 May 2014 - 14:15.

[aguri]

First round of the Italian edition of the FIA F4 ran this past weekend at Adria. 

 

Ferrari junior driver Lance Stroll won the first race, Ukyo Sasahara the second and Andrea Russo the 3rd. 

 

Prema powerteam looking strong.

[V8 Fireworks]

The cars, which will be known as MSV F4-013, will be powered by the cost effective and proven 2 litre Ford Duratec engine, developing 175bhp and featuring a Cosworth engine management system. The gearbox will be more sophisticated than any previous car at this level, being a 6 speed Sadev transmission incorporating paddle shift. Cosworth will also supply the gearbox control system. The cars will run on slick and wet compound tyres provided by Yokohama.

 

But it's almost the same as Formula Ford! Madness!

 

The tier below F3 should be 1000cc motorcyle powered like below ... road car engines are heavy and daft.

 

[V8 Fireworks]

 

 

What having more classes does is actually help suppress cost, at least at the lower levels. It's simply supply and demand. Demand for race wins is high so if you reduce the number of classes you are limiting the supply... then prices would go out of the stratosphere. Worse than they are now. Imagine having all the wealthiest drivers in one single recognised official ladder system.... no one would even get a look in at all.

 

MOTO 2 and 3 anyone? 

[aguri]

... and having less classes will somehow decrease costs? 

 

What having more classes does is actually help suppress cost, at least at the lower levels. It's simply supply and demand. Demand for race wins is high so if you reduce the number of classes you are limiting the supply... then prices would go out of the stratosphere. Worse than they are now. Imagine having all the wealthiest drivers in one single recognised official ladder system.... no one would even get a look in at all.

 

I don't think this would necessarily work out how you think it will. Equipment costs would go down significantly, and in general teams would be stronger financially - to the point where they might require less funding from drivers. 

 

At the end of the day though there will still be plenty of championships. There is currently two F4 championships worldwide, next year there will be 6. In two years time there might be 7 or 8 depending on what the Chinese and French do. All of these championships already existed, they are just adopting a standardised car. It is going to be much cheaper long term than if all these series each adopted a different new car.