29 replies to this topic

[TheWilliamzer]

Hi everybody,

Since the introduction of DRS in 2011 overtaking increased so much so "the fans" can be happy and enjoy the show, even if overtakes look assisted but anyway it creates some mixing up in the order and that's healthy.

The side effect is that there's a car in the midfield that is slow but very well geared and got good top speed, thanks to DRS! this car have another one behind it that is not geared properly and short on 7th gear, overreving when opening DRS. then a bunch of other cars all trapped into that train and all of them have DRS enabled!

We seen this several times this year, nearly at every GP! looks like DRS is doing the opposite of what it's supposed to do in such situations!

The FIA needs to have a look at this IMHO.



Thanks for your time.

[Tonka]

A good driver will get past. You're seeing a convoy of drivers hitting the talent barrier.

[DampMongoose]

I was reluctant to comment on this as having read and re-read your post a few times I can see where the discussion will end up heading... so I'll try and push it that way to start!

Personally, 'mixing up the order' is not at all healthy when it is contrived by DRS or a push to pass rules system... it's fake for entertainment value, not at all enjoyable for motor racing! I'd rate Bernie's short cut idea or sprinklers in the same breath as DRS...

[Jamiednm]

The trains were much worse before DRS.

[Vesuvius]

There is still much more overtaking then before 2011 and it's mainly thanks to the pirelli tyres, even last year because of the tyres there were more overtaking than with drs.

[MikeTekRacing]

Hi everybody,

Since the introduction of DRS in 2011 overtaking increased so much so "the fans" can be happy and enjoy the show, even if overtakes look assisted but anyway it creates some mixing up in the order and that's healthy.

The side effect is that there's a car in the midfield that is slow but very well geared and got good top speed, thanks to DRS! this car have another one behind it that is not geared properly and short on 7th gear, overreving when opening DRS. then a bunch of other cars all trapped into that train and all of them have DRS enabled!

We seen this several times this year, nearly at every GP! looks like DRS is doing the opposite of what it's supposed to do in such situations!

The FIA needs to have a look at this IMHO.



Thanks for your time.

then they should learn to gear up the cars properly as to avoid being stuck in a train.

[Garagiste]

^ /thread.
It's just another setup variable, along with the new tyres it's meant a bit of a gamble hence so many different teams happened to punt correctly for that track on that day.

[BillBald]

Hi everybody,

Since the introduction of DRS in 2011 overtaking increased so much so "the fans" can be happy and enjoy the show, even if overtakes look assisted but anyway it creates some mixing up in the order and that's healthy.

The side effect is that there's a car in the midfield that is slow but very well geared and got good top speed, thanks to DRS! this car have another one behind it that is not geared properly and short on 7th gear, overreving when opening DRS. then a bunch of other cars all trapped into that train and all of them have DRS enabled!

We seen this several times this year, nearly at every GP! looks like DRS is doing the opposite of what it's supposed to do in such situations!

The FIA needs to have a look at this IMHO.

Thanks for your time.

If the second car in the train is too low-geared, the cars behind should be able to overtake, in theory. However, these 'trains' do arise.

I think it's not so much a question of gearing, it tends to happen when the second car is able to gain on the first, but not quite enough to overtake, either because the driver lacks confidence, the driver in front is mounting a robust defence, or because the track doesn't make it easy, even with DRS.

The drivers behind are then unable to overtake because the car in front of them is protected by DRS.

I can't really see what could be done about it.

[Kvothe]

^
Nothing needs to be done.

As we saw with Kimi's train in China this year, or Kobayashi's train in Hungary last year eventually drivers find a way through and it can be pretty spectacular when the train is in the midfield to watch the leaders catch up and navigate it without losing positions.

[bmardini]

Plus I think the turbulence is amplified when you're following more than one car. They say that you can feel the effect of another car as early as 2s up the road, when you've got 2-4 cars all within a second the car all the way at the back is driving in the worst air!

[Dolph]

The trains were much worse before DRS.

+1

[Disgrace]

A train of cars is not necessarily a bad thing. I quite like the build-up and holding up of cars, they can be more exciting than the eventual overtake. For example last year, Schumacher holding up Hamilton was great fun to watch and more than DRS-assisted overtakes.

Edited by Disgrace, 19 September 2012 - 20:35.

[Mauseri]

I don't see how DRs makes overtaking more difficult. It would be the same without, just easier for the train leader.

[PinkZepStones]

A train of cars is not necessarily a bad thing. I quite like the build-up and holding up of cars, they can be more exciting than the eventual overtake. For example last year, Schumacher holding up Hamilton was great fun to watch and more than DRS-assisted overtakes.

Speak for yourself! Schumi holding Hamilton back was possibly the most frustrating thing I've ever seen.

[pingu666]

funny that its never mentioned that non drs zone passes can be helped by drs, because it allows the following car to suck up easily.

but i still want it to go away/be less slot gap

[Henrik B]

And DRS in itself do not "mix up the order". However, it gives cars who qualify bad a chance to take advantage of their better race pace (if they have it). I like that faster cars now have a chance to pass (sometimes it's still impossible) instead of being stuck the whole race.

[HoldenRT]

That's the thing with DRS. It helps ONE car get past another.. as long as the car infront is by itself.

As soon as you add a train of cars infront, the car behind gets trapped.. just like in the olden days. This has been happening for 18+ months.. it's not a new thing. And it's got nothing to do with the gearing.. although that is certainly a factor.

You do see some drivers overcome these situations yes, but it's usually to do with being on a lot fresher tyres or some other large advantage, and in those situations the driver will always get past anyway.

DRS still does a lot of good things though. This is just one of it's drawbacks.

[Tenmantaylor]

Wrong gearing isn't caused by the DRS

Wrong gearing is chosen before the race but contributing factors are 1) the rev limit and 2) parc ferme rules not allowing gearing to be changed once the weekend has started. Teams also have to select a preset number of ratios at the start of the season so if they find themselves between final gearing options during the race then they can easily get caught out. The most obvious was Vettel at Spa.

[HoldenRT]

A good driver will get past. You're seeing a convoy of drivers hitting the talent barrier.

If talent was all that mattered, DRS wouldn't even be required.

There is a million factors, with aero disturbance and turbulance being the main one. And that's not to mention that the talent level in F1 is so close together, because they are the best drivers in the world, and the cars are easy to drive. F1 is more like a spec series, than it has ever been IMO.

[HoldenRT]

The main thing.. other than turbulance.. 3 cars enter a DRS zone..

Car A - Lotus



Car B - STR - DRS



Car C - Ferrari - DRS



Ferrari is both faster than Lotus and STR.. but STR isn't fast enough to overtake Lotus by it's own merit.. but fast enough to stay within 1 sec. Ferrari is much faster than STR but can't overtake the STR, because the STR is getting a "free tow" from the Lotus. If the Lotus wasn't there.. the STR would be overtaken easily.

The Ferrari can't take advantage of it's speed in the corners because of aero turbulance. It can't take advantage of it's better corner exit or straight line speed due to the Lotus giving the STR a tow. Unless the STR drops back behind the 1 sec mark.. or the Ferrari gets brave and tries something risky.

edit - And the Ferrari still needs to enter the braking zone in the Lotus's turbulance. It's even harder if there are two or three more cars infront of the Lotus.

Edited by HoldenRT, 20 September 2012 - 10:04.

[Gareth]

And DRS in itself do not "mix up the order". However, it gives cars who qualify bad a chance to take advantage of their better race pace (if they have it). I like that faster cars now have a chance to pass (sometimes it's still impossible) instead of being stuck the whole race.

I agree. I also like that it allows more difference in tyre strategy, as dropping back into midfield is no longer the race killer it once was.

With regards to the "train", I don't think anything needs to be done. As someone else says, it's jsut the same as it was pre-DRS except for the leader (so it still improves the chances of an overtake, just that this improvement is more marginal over (say) 8 cars in the train than if those 8 cars were split into 4 packs of 2).

My main tweak to DRS would be (if possible) to design the software so it recognises as backmarker about to be lapped and doesn't allow activation in those circumstances.

[HoldenRT]

I agree.. the backmarker thing is another DRS glitch or downside.

[PretentiousBread]

The main thing.. other than turbulance.. 3 cars enter a DRS zone..

Car A - Lotus



Car B - STR - DRS



Car C - Ferrari - DRS



Ferrari is both faster than Lotus and STR.. but STR isn't fast enough to overtake Lotus by it's own merit.. but fast enough to stay within 1 sec. Ferrari is much faster than STR but can't overtake the STR, because the STR is getting a "free tow" from the Lotus. If the Lotus wasn't there.. the STR would be overtaken easily.

The Ferrari can't take advantage of it's speed in the corners because of aero turbulance. It can't take advantage of it's better corner exit or straight line speed due to the Lotus giving the STR a tow. Unless the STR drops back behind the 1 sec mark.. or the Ferrari gets brave and tries something risky.

edit - And the Ferrari still needs to enter the braking zone in the Lotus's turbulance. It's even harder if there are two or three more cars infront of the Lotus.

This is exactly right, and explains why we are seeing these trains and why they can sometimes be counter-productive to overtaking.

[TheWilliamzer]

The main thing.. other than turbulance.. 3 cars enter a DRS zone..

Car A - Lotus



Car B - STR - DRS



Car C - Ferrari - DRS



Ferrari is both faster than Lotus and STR.. but STR isn't fast enough to overtake Lotus by it's own merit.. but fast enough to stay within 1 sec. Ferrari is much faster than STR but can't overtake the STR, because the STR is getting a "free tow" from the Lotus. If the Lotus wasn't there.. the STR would be overtaken easily.

The Ferrari can't take advantage of it's speed in the corners because of aero turbulance. It can't take advantage of it's better corner exit or straight line speed due to the Lotus giving the STR a tow. Unless the STR drops back behind the 1 sec mark.. or the Ferrari gets brave and tries something risky.

edit - And the Ferrari still needs to enter the braking zone in the Lotus's turbulance. It's even harder if there are two or three more cars infront of the Lotus.

That's what I wanted to say!

[Henrik B]

That's the thing with DRS. It helps ONE car get past another.. as long as the car infront is by itself.

As soon as you add a train of cars infront, the car behind gets trapped.. just like in the olden days. This has been happening for 18+ months.. it's not a new thing. And it's got nothing to do with the gearing.. although that is certainly a factor.

I got sidetracked. I was meaning to add that it has a number of benefits BUT does not always help. I can't call that a downside because it's just the same as it was pre-DRS. We can't wait until we have a 100% perfect solution to do SOMETHING, and I see no real downside to DRS as it is now. Some tracks need to have the activation zone tweaked, and FIA do that this second season, but it's a implementation issue, not a design flaw.

It sort of enables the passes that should have been possible anyway.

[Deluxx]

I think you guys are forgetting that there were trains before DRS.................

[Brandz07]

It's not a 'DRS train', it's just a train, it happens whether they're using DRS or not.

[Tonka]

The main thing.. other than turbulance.. 3 cars enter a DRS zone..

Car A - Lotus



Car B - STR - DRS



Car C - Ferrari - DRS



Ferrari is both faster than Lotus and STR.. but STR isn't fast enough to overtake Lotus by it's own merit.. but fast enough to stay within 1 sec. Ferrari is much faster than STR but can't overtake the STR, because the STR is getting a "free tow" from the Lotus. If the Lotus wasn't there.. the STR would be overtaken easily.

The Ferrari can't take advantage of it's speed in the corners because of aero turbulance. It can't take advantage of it's better corner exit or straight line speed due to the Lotus giving the STR a tow. Unless the STR drops back behind the 1 sec mark.. or the Ferrari gets brave and tries something risky.

edit - And the Ferrari still needs to enter the braking zone in the Lotus's turbulance. It's even harder if there are two or three more cars infront of the Lotus.

How dreadful - the 3 cars end up racing! Whatever next.

[MikeTekRacing]

Speak for yourself! Schumi holding Hamilton back was possibly the most frustrating thing I've ever seen.

I guess you can also take the advice of speaking for yourself only if it frustrated you
do you want drivers blue flagged or racing for position? Has it ever occurred to you that with proper gearing Lewis wouldn't have been that fast compared to MS? Short gears have advantages and disadvantages.

it was not by any means DRS's fault that Lewis was bouncing off the limiter with hundreds of meters to go before braking for T1. No rule/DRS/anything would fix such a dramatic short gearing

[adam1312]

kers,no drs, this years difuser rules