73 replies to this topic

[Magoo]

The next public appearance of the Nissan DeltaWing will be at the Petit Lemans at Road Atlanta on Oct. 20. Here's some video by Highcroft Racing from recent testing there. With so much rampant speculation regarding the vehicle's dynamics, some in-car footage could be helpful. Perhaps. Couldn't hurt, could it. Eh. Still capture above; video link below.



LINK Video: Nissan DeltaWing In-car at Road Atlanta | Mac's Motor City Garage



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[desmo]

Looks smooth and fast, although only the stopwatch can tell the latter.

[BRG]

I'd like to see that overlaid with footage of a proper car as a comparison.

And how come you can see the top of the rear tyre? Isn't it meant to be a sports car? Or is that yet another exemption to the rules?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Heh. 'Proper car'.

As if Moses came down from the mountain with a third tablet stating the only rules package that is acceptable.

[John Brundage]

Heh. 'Proper car'.

As if Moses came down from the mountain with a third tablet stating the only rules package that is acceptable.

I remember seeing in Mel Brook's movie, History of the World, that Moses indeed come down the mountain with three tablets. Unfortunately, one fell and broke.

[BRG]

Heh. 'Proper car'.

As if Moses came down from the mountain with a third tablet stating the only rules package that is acceptable.

Alright, 'conventional car' then - happy now?

[Fat Boy]

The vid is way too chopped up. They just need the overhead shot, but it needs to have the driver's hands in frame. As it is, it's just a lap around Road Atlanta. It's tough to tell much.

[Tony Matthews]

And the Lord said unto Moses, "Moses, old son (he didn't mean that literaly of course, just being chummy), all good things come in twos and multiples of, I have not made a three-leg'd hanimal, and for a very good reason. Think on't." But Moses, being ornary, mounted his trycicle, pedalled to his triplane and flew to the Red Sea, where his tri-maran was moored. The words 'delta' and 'wing' were troubling him, but what did it mean?

Sorry, got carried away - I think I'm dehydrated.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Alright, 'conventional car' then - happy now?

Far more than you'll ever be about this car

[Magoo]

The vid is way too chopped up. They just need the overhead shot, but it needs to have the driver's hands in frame. As it is, it's just a lap around Road Atlanta. It's tough to tell much.

I was thinking exactly the same thing, but I was counting on your keen eye to sort it out for me.

[Fat Boy]

Then you're in trouble.

[munks]

"I have not made a three-leg'd hanimal, and for a very good reason. Think on't."

Brilliant, but I can't tell exactly what accent God has. Do I detect a brogue?

[Tony Matthews]

As you know, God communicates telepathically, his words taking on vaguely familiar accents, a hint of gravitas, a touch of jocularity, unless in full wrath mode. In Moses' case it was Estuary English with a touch of Shakespear, Moses coming as he did from Essex - a little known fact. Moses built a three-wheeled chariot but it was a step backwards, with 50% more rolling resistance and a much worse turning circle. The horses didn't like it.

[carlt]

Moses built a three-wheeled chariot but it was a step backwards, with 50% more rolling resistance and a much worse turning circle. The horses didn't like it.

was that Moses Trotter ?

It was always said he was very reliant on tablets

[gruntguru]

It is clearly going to take some time for a new driver to judge where his inside rear tyre is. It is difficult enough in tight corners with your typical "front track wider than rear" layout where the rears still corner at a tighter radius than the fronts. The driver in the video is hitting a lot of ripple strips with the inside rear and I think there might be a real problem if there was a "wall" or similar at the apex.

[Ross Stonefeld]

But....he'd be doing that in a normal car with the front wheels.

[munks]

It is clearly going to take some time for a new driver to judge where his inside rear tyre is. It is difficult enough in tight corners with your typical "front track wider than rear" layout where the rears still corner at a tighter radius than the fronts. The driver in the video is hitting a lot of ripple strips with the inside rear and I think there might be a real problem if there was a "wall" or similar at the apex.

I made precisely this point on Mac's site. You have no visual reference to know where your rear tires are.

A small quibble with your post: but isn't the "front track wider than rear" layout usually simply because track is measured from the wheel center, and the front tires are skinnier (meaning the lateral extents at the front and rear are usually pretty close to equivalent)?

[Kalmake]

At least judging the front wheels is not an issue like with many "normal" cars. Michael Schumacher said during Race of Champions "I need to see where the front wheels are". Tommi Mäkinen complained when his new rally car had rounder corners.

[Tenmantaylor]

Don't know how close to the edge of the car's capability it was being driven and lots of other factors like fuel level, tyre condition and temperatures etc but the laptime was 1m19 flat by my stopwatch. Not far off a Star Mazda single seater and about 8s off an Audi R8 ALMS car.

If this is to be believed:

http://www.trackpedi...ki/Road_Atlanta

[Ross Stonefeld]

Doesn't that make the massive assumption it's from the same lap? I assume the car is carrying all the cameras for the various angles simultaneously, but because of the composite effect how sure can we be it's from within one lap?

[Victor_RO]

Doesn't that make the massive assumption it's from the same lap? I assume the car is carrying all the cameras for the various angles simultaneously, but because of the composite effect how sure can we be it's from within one lap?

Sources later mentioned that the car was actually clocked at a 1:14 during testing, which is round about LMP2 pace around Road Atlanta.

[Slowinfastout]

Two official days of testing have seen the DeltaWing down to a 1:13.462, in the hands of new drivers Gunnar Jeannette and Lucas Ordonez this race. That time was not even half a second off the P2 pacesetters from Level 5 Motorsports, a 1:13.025.

http://www.racer.com...article/263967/

looks like the pace is right on target.

Ha! I was looking for something like that, more feedback on how it drives:

Driving the car was a completely different experience, Ordoñez said, due to the design and aerodynamics of the dart-shaped prototype. Of course the main question he had before his first laps were  not surprisingly  how well does it turn with four-inch front tires that are only about a foot apart?

"I was asking Marino (Franchitti), Michael (Krumm) all the Le Mans drivers on how it is to drive and does it turn well," he said. "They all told me I would be really impressed with how it turns, the downforce the car generates and its top speed. The first time I drove it was a fantastic feeling. The steering was very sensitive and very precise. The cars I like are very sensitive like that and are ones where you can feel the steering wheel working.

"It was definitely different though," he admitted. "I did have to change my driving style, how I brake and when to be on the throttle through the corners. In LMP2 cars you can brake deeper into the apex of the corner. With DeltaWing, you have to brake a little earlier but with the same speed and be on the throttle before reaching the apex. That's how to make the car a lot faster. I worked hard for two years to be very fast in a P2 car, but now with this innovative car I've had to go back to a style that is not a GT but also not a P2 style. But you have to find that style and work with the engineers and data collected to make the car faster."

http://www.roadatlan...-Token.id=34161

Edited by Slowinfastout, 17 October 2012 - 17:27.

[saudoso]

Ooops, glass chin, touched by a GT Porsche today.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Little more than a touch I'd say.

[saudoso]

It turned over...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Before or after being struck by a Porsche?

[saudoso]

Conflicting versions... the first I've read, from a site here in BR (the picture is by Bruno Junqueira), it was touched by the Porsche and turned over.

http://tazio.uol.com...a-petit-le-mans

But I've read somwhere else (after first posting) that it was collected after turning over.

Edited by saudoso, 17 October 2012 - 22:41.

[RDV]

All-nighter after shunt, but repairable....

[saudoso]

http://www.youtube.c...;v=uW7qaG9K2_c#!

It is a severe case of glass chin.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think it's a terminal case of you disliking it and finding any issue and hitting it with the exaggeration-ray.

[GSpeedR]

http://www.youtube.c...;v=uW7qaG9K2_c#!

It is a severe case of glass chin.

Are we watching the same video (or is that sarcasm)? Perhaps the DeltaWing shape is more likely to roll-over after impact than a conventional car, but that Porsche ****ing hammered it.

[blkirk]

Are we watching the same video (or is that sarcasm)? Perhaps the DeltaWing shape is more likely to roll-over after impact than a conventional car, but that Porsche ****ing hammered it.

Which I think exposes the biggest problem the car will face. I think the drivers of the DeltaWing will come to grips with the narrow front-wide rear relatively quickly. All of the other drivers, however, will be the problem. When they see the front of another car go by in their peripheral vision, and they see 3-4 feet of space, they're going to try to use that space. And with every single car out there that is not the DeltaWing, they will be fine. They will use road that is available to them, and they will be faster. When they do the exact same thing when the DeltaWing goes by, BANG. There's a collision.

[desmo]

The c*nt in the moving chicane looks like he deliberately shunted the DW.

[MatsNorway]

The c*nt in the moving chicane looks like he deliberately shunted the DW.

Looks like he was about to enter the pits. If not im with you.

[Hun200kmh]

http://www.youtube.c...;v=uW7qaG9K2_c#!

It is a severe case of glass chin.

Indeed. Must be something to do with cars raced by Highcroft. Or are you talking about the Porsches?

[saudoso]

You guys should be advocating for GLBT rights, for god's sake.

The effin PR Stunt will beeline to the nearest rail-guard every time it's touched and the problem must be elsewhere.

Get a grip, it's not a proper racing car, would barely survive a class of it's own peers. Ditch the effin concept. Or effin go to one car at a time time trials.

Edited by saudoso, 19 October 2012 - 02:19.

[saudoso]

Just imagine it racing against David Coulthard in his latest and not so bright years. Carnage.

[desmo]

The effin PR Stunt will beeline to the nearest rail-guard every time it's touched and the problem must be elsewhere.

This based on what exactly? Some presumed inherent instability not present in cars that lap much slower? The sheer lack of relative mass?

[kikiturbo2]

Looks like he was about to enter the pits. If not im with you.

looks like the porsche had a bit of an oversteer moment on the kerbs, didnt correct in time which got him pushed a bit to the right... However, blkirk is right, people see that empty space and go for it, forgetting that there is more to that car, just a foot or two behind....


In the end, if they keep running the car in competition with other "normal" cars, we will have a good statistical sample.. My money is on the deltawing crashing all the time due to contact with other cars..

Edited by kikiturbo2, 19 October 2012 - 05:24.

[Tony Matthews]

I would think that a triangle is easier to tip over than a square.

Err - rectangle..

Edited by Tony Matthews, 19 October 2012 - 07:53.

[Bloggsworth]

I think the Porsche driver was on the LH kerbing and overdid his attempt to get off it, and as he regained the track the LH wheels had maximum grip and before he had corrected himself he was into into Eric Bristow...

[Catalina Park]

I would think that a triangle is easier to tip over than a square.

Err - rectangle..

I had a teacher in primary school that tried to teach us that a triangle was more stable than a square, a three legged stool can only fall in three directions so it is more stable than a four legged stool he said.

I said that a two legged stool must be even better.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You guys should be advocating for GLBT rights, for god's sake.

Oh, will you tell us how that's a PR stunt too?

[saudoso]

Oh it's not, it's just that it must be one of the hardest thing to fight for these days and the bunch is showing to be stubborn enough around here to survive that ordeal.

[saudoso]

This based on what exactly? Some presumed inherent instability not present in cars that lap much slower? The sheer lack of relative mass?

Like kikiturbo said, statistics will show. So far despite the small sample, it's a 100% touch-to-imparing-crash rate of success.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

It's hard not to crash when the wheel-to-wheel contact launches you in the air. Thought I guess you can make the argument that a lighter car will be easier to launch.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Someone's already run the Audi McNish and Toyota Davidson crash clips from Le Mans, right?

[Slowinfastout]

Everything is happening at the back with that car, so I guess when both the ground effect aero and the mechanical grip are disturbed back there, such as when it's being suddenly knocked sideways and lifted up by colliding with another car.. it's gonna go around as the front is way out there and is little more than a pivot point.

The thing is it's also more likely to happen since there's a better chance the first thing that will make contact will be the back of the car, at least compared to a 'normal' car.

IMO it does raise some questions, mostly at med to high speed as it becomes increasingly reliant on aero, it'll be interesting to see if it will end up being statistically significant... but IMHO that particular crash would also have been bad news for a normal prototype.. maybe it would have been less likely to end up flipping over by having a wheel literally climbing over something, but normal prototypes are arguably more likely to be lifted up and flipped over aerodynamically.

[Slowinfastout]

Someone's already run the Audi McNish and Toyota Davidson crash clips from Le Mans, right?

or the Scott Sharp one.. GT Porsche clibs back-end style:

[desmo]

Empirical data are better even than informed speculation but there are too little data here. In any case perhaps we could stipulate that the DW is probably safer from a car to car contact standpoint than in the case of open wheel cars where the contact is likely to between spinning wheels and we mostly accept that situation as acceptable from a safety standpoint.