131 replies to this topic

[eronrules]

honestly though, who here thinks Mclaren has any other option or for that fact desire to change Mercedes power plant??? putting all these driver transfer aside, mercedes still rates mclaren high due to the amount of success Woking has given them. Norbert haug has always spoken softly about Macca and so too Whitmarsh about Merc. i see no reason why macca should go to other engine suppliers.

don't fix it if it aint broken.

[Babak]

Why do you think Honda rumors are back? I thinks it's somewhat clear: no top-tier team likes/can afford to relegate to mid field, which is what will happen come 2014: Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault will certainly give an edge to their main teams (ie, Mercedes, Ferrari, RedBull) when engine development is back in full force beginning in 2014, so teams like Mclaren, Lotus, Sauber will be at a clear disadvantage. It would make total sense if anyone of these team could lure other engine manufacturers back in F1 to be their main partner. Like Mclaren Honda, or Lotus Whatever or ...

Edited by Babak, 10 October 2012 - 21:29.

[eronrules]

Why do you think Honda rumors are back? I thinks it's somewhat clear: no top-tier team likes/can afford to relegate to mid field, which is what will happen come 2014: Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault will certainly give an edge to their main team when engine development is back in full force beginning in 2014, so teams like Mclaren, Lotus, Sauber will be at a clear disadvantage. It would make total sense if anyone of these team could lure other engine manufacturers back to F1 to be their main partner. Like Mclaren Honda, or Lotus Whatever or ...

honda aint comin in 2014, that's for sure.

[Babak]

honda aint comin in 2014, that's for sure.;)

Agreed.

[lustigson]

And Honda rumors aren't rumors: their R&D boss openly spoke about a possible, though not imminent, return.

[ViMaMo]

1. How much do teams pay for Mercedes engine?
2. How much do teams pay for Ferrari engine?
3. How much do teams pay for Renault engine?

I would appreciate it if anyone could answer.

Edited by ViMaMo, 11 October 2012 - 05:47.

[Spoofski]

Considering Ilmor, which no longer exists, is wholly owned by Mercedes, I kind of doubt that could ever happen.

The same non-existent Ilmor that just cleaned up the 2012 Indycar series with a V6 turbo direct-injected engine on Chevrolet's behalf?

[packapoo]

[quote name='Clatter' date='Sep 28 2012, 22:27' post='5945237']
I certainly don't expect them to use Ferrari engines and I'm certain they will still be using Mercs. 'Merc have stated many times that they get just as much glory from the success of their engines in a customers car'..........as they do from......what?

Hardly been spectacular in their own.

[packapoo]

Pretty sure that any supply agreement would not allow this, and that any used engines have to be returned to the manufacturer.

r
The largest Asian country mass is well known for their reverse engineering capabilities; as well as for ignoring any of the conventions that might stifle more scrupulous nations.

[packapoo]

and not to forget, VW and Honda have expressed their desire to return to F1,

When was VW in F1?
Others of their Group, now, have been. I just can't recall VW as such.

[packapoo]

till mercedes came along and saved their asses in woking.

Wasn't there an entity, name of Ilmor, that should be given credit here?

[Lazy]

That is a lot of wrong in one little paragraph.

There is a maximum fuel flow restriction of 100kg/hr above 10500rpm, which means efficiency is everything if you want more power so everyone will run their 8-speed gearbox engines in 10500-12000rpm range because lower speeds are more efficient.

Turbos are far more efficient, partly because they will be miller cycle with late inlet valve close for part filled cylinder (10% less fuel than non-miller = 10% more power in fuel flow restricted engine) and partly because they will run lean at max power.

In most IC engines maximum power at a given pressure limit is obtained at ~10% overfuelling (0.9 Lambda, 13:1 AF ratio) the only reason you ever go richer than that (as many so called high performance supercar turbos do) is to keep your turbine inlet and valve temperatures below temp limit, not because you need more turbine power (which you are almost always throwing away through the wastegate at peak power point anyway - the wastegate is only fully closed at <2000rpm on a road car turbo where you can't achieve peak torque and temperature isn't a problem). You also can't go lean in road cars as that stops your catalytic converter from working and is verboten.

But in these racing fuel flow restricted F1 V6s the electric motor linked turbo only needs to operate at one optimised speed, pressure and mass flow (about 0.5kg/s 2-2.5 bar boost for 2014 F1) - never a lag issue to deal with and probably no wastegate -so very little like conventional inefficient low inertia turbocharger turbines, more like a small Capstone Gas Turbines - (their C60 model minus the heat exchangers and combustor would actually be pretty close to perfect).

The inlet manifold pressure will be significantly higher than the exhaust manifold pressure so you get free scavenging air blowing through the engine during exhaust/inlet valve overlap, and that will also cools the valves and turbine slightly as well as contributing more power to the engine (induction stroke becomes a slight power stroke too).

The pre-Intercooler blow-off valve will dump to the Turbine inlet through an efficient low-loss low-noise faired poppet valve to recover some energy from the compressed air while maintaining compressor speed (if they are not trying to use it for downforce generation elsewhere), and letting the Intercooler cool off slightly, so probably won't ever hear a blow off valve in operation.

The engine will be running lean for highest efficiency/power while upping the boost to make that possible, and because Miller Cycle extracts more heat from the exhaust before it reaches the turbine and because proper cutting edge production turbines such as Audi S series use can run at 1050°C for the life of a car anyway (so don't require over-fuelling) they will not be worried about overheating the turbines in a race engine where they only need to last 10 hours.

With 6 cylinders and 12000rpm they will have half the frequency of 18000rpm V8s and with the more efficient and complete expansion of the Miller Cycle as well as with everything passing through an efficient turbine exhaust diffuser to extract max exhaust energy it means a big reduction in exhaust noise too. These engines will be potent, but not nearly the same level of sound as V8 NA.

Saved fuel = much lighter car with same power (perhaps 20-30% less fuel used with extra KERs and all that) = a big performance gain during race.

Nice post, thanks.

[Baddoer]

McLaren could afford buying cosworth and developing their own engine. But will they? I think not.

[engel]

1. How much do teams pay for Mercedes engine?
2. How much do teams pay for Ferrari engine?
3. How much do teams pay for Renault engine?

I would appreciate it if anyone could answer.

Cosworths run at about 5m/season, the rest at about 7m/season + 3m/season for KERS packages

Obviously those are the FOTA mandated prices, special deals can apply

[CONOSUR]

The same non-existent Ilmor that just cleaned up the 2012 Indycar series with a V6 turbo direct-injected engine on Chevrolet's behalf?

I guess so. They're still owned by Mercedes. Chevrolet just paid to put their name on it.

[loki0420]

McLaren could afford buying cosworth and developing their own engine. But will they? I think not.

I wouldn't be surprised actually, but too think they wouldn't do that for 2013. Also i don't think they will buy any existing factories to avoid scattered production, and better build one around MTC/PTC. Come to think of it they are building yet another factory nearby so could bear that in mind, we shall just wait till mercedes deal will get closer to its end.

[lustigson]

I guess so. They're still owned by Mercedes. Chevrolet just paid to put their name on it.

That's not the same company. The original Ilmor company was bought by Mercedes and rechristened Mercedes High-Performance Engines.
Mario Illien subsequently started a new company under the same name. That's the company that builds Chevy's IndyCar engines.

[Spoofski]

I guess so. They're still owned by Mercedes. Chevrolet just paid to put their name on it.

Wrong. Ilmor and Mercedes are entirely separate companies.

[CONOSUR]

Well, then after owning them and absorbing the F1 engine program, they must have spun them off...

Whatever. I really couldn't care less.

[Tommorris747]

last week cosworth announced that they may consider 2014 engine supply, and said that their version of V6 has been in the development for atleast 6 months (maybe simulation/mockups).

No surprise - they are the smallest of lot so if there is money to be paid back for lost development they will be there!

[Timstr11]

Cosworth for sale.

[lustigson]

Cosworth for sale.

That's interesting, Timstr.

I've wondered for some time whether the company would be for sale at the right price. I reckon it would be quite valuable to either a major race team, e.g. McLaren or Penske, a race car manufacturer, e.g. Dallara or Lola (although the latter went bust, recently) or a major car company, e.g. VAG.

If I were McLaren, I'd buy the company as an ongoing concern. It's profitable in itself, isn't it? Or at least it could be. So there's a viable business model. And it would be a no-brainer to have Cosworth develop a competitive F1 engine that McLaren could either badge themselves, or have an interested third party label it with their brand, e.g. Audi, KIA, Telmex, or whatever.

But since Cosworth are openly for sale, I think a McLaren deal is not in the cards. Otherwise they'd have announced something along those lines, instead.

[sanW10]

Didnt McLaren buy off BMW F1 engine plant in UK?

[lustigson]

Didnt McLaren buy off BMW F1 engine plant in UK?

BMW built their F1 engines in Munich, if I recall correctly.

[tifosiMac]

Didnt McLaren buy off BMW F1 engine plant in UK?

Not sure about that. Mercedes engines (motorsport) are designed and manufactured at Brixworth in the UK with a Merc badge slapped on them, but not sure BMW has come across.

[lustigson]

... with a Merc badge slapped on them...

That used to be the case when Ilmor still did the designing and buidling, but since Daimler AG took over Ilmor Engineering Ltd and renamed it Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains, one could argue that the powerplants are proper Mercedes' engines.

[BRG]

But since Cosworth are openly for sale, I think a McLaren deal is not in the cards. Otherwise they'd have announced something along those lines, instead.

It ought to be though, assuming that McLaren have the cash and that the price is sensible. Cosworth have plenty of road car engine experience having worked for Ford, Mercedes, Opel and others. If McLaren want to build their own road engines themselves (currently they are using Riccardo, I believe), who better than Cosworth as part of the McLaren empire? The race engines could be a bonus, it is road cars that Ron is most interested in these days.

[Sanman59]

http://www.yallaf1.c...place-mercedes/

Interesting update.

[10e10]

http://www.yallaf1.c...place-mercedes/

Interesting update.

If engines are going to be a major part in performance in 2014, then McLaren might be right, wanting to be more than engine customers.

[marina]

http://www.yallaf1.c...place-mercedes/

Interesting update.

The Sun newspaper...

Edited by marina, 23 October 2012 - 16:08.

[lustigson]

The Sun newspaper...

+1

[peroa]

Didnt McLaren buy off BMW F1 engine plant in UK?

It was said that when BMW quit, Ronzo wanted to buy the IP for their engine, BMW said no and that was it.