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driverless cars to hit california ( sorry!)


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#1851 Bloggsworth

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 21:57

Like...never?

 

Well, if you'd like to give me an example. I've never seen or heard of one.



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#1852 gruntguru

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 23:06

 

"Tesla said in a statement that it was deeply saddened by the crash and is co-operating with police. “We understand that speed is being investigated as a factor in this crash, and know that high speed collisions can result in a fire in any type of car, not just electric vehicles,” the company said.

The Tesla’s battery reignited twice on Monday morning at a salvage yard where it was towed, Davie Fire Marshal Robert Taylor said.

 

Tesla said in a statement that it posts language on its website for first responders saying that fires can take up to 24 hours to extinguish and that they should consider letting the battery burn while protecting exposures to buildings."

 

Hmm - Interesting, but petrol/diesel cars don't re-ignite over the next 24 hours after they have been removed from the crash site...

 

 

I would be shocked by this news but for the fact that a gasoline fire, in combination with a ruptured fuel tank creates a conflagration many times the intensity of a lithium battery fire.



#1853 BRG

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 19:57

I would be shocked by this news but for the fact that a gasoline fire, in combination with a ruptured fuel tank creates a conflagration many times the intensity of a lithium battery fire.

Really?  Having seen both, I know which I would prefer to tackle.  You can douse a petrol fire in a few moments.  Any trained race marshal will know the technique.  You can't put out a lithium battery fire no matter how much you try.  And it is FAR more intense and hotter than poor old petrol.



#1854 gruntguru

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 22:49

I will take your word on extinguishing although it seems EV battery packs (due to physical packaging style) do not exhibit the explosive characteristics seen in the various videos of laptop batteries etc.

 

As to intensity and temperature, the literature doesn't support your last sentence.

 

eg https://saemobilus-s...nt/2014-01-0428

 

"CONCLUSION

In this study, we conducted fire tests on gasoline vehicles and lithium-ion battery installing vehicles and obtained the following findings.

• Results of tests on vehicles that are run by two different types of battery indicated no explosion of batteries or scattering of battery materials for either type of battery.

• For LIB Vehicle-1, combustion of the battery continued after combustion of the vehicle had ended. However, no large differences in vehicle temperature were observed except inside the passenger area where the battery is installed, so it can be assumed that there are no significant differences in thermal influence around the two types of vehicle.

• Within the range of combustion gas analyzed, the maximum CO concentration measured above the roof was 564 ppm for the gasoline vehicle and 563 ppm for the lithium ion battery installing vehicle. There was thus almost no difference between the two types of vehicle. Furthermore, no HF was detected in either the gasoline vehicle or the lithium-ion battery installing vehicle."

 

As to the risk of a fire starting in the first place, estimates range from this:

"the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issued a statement saying that the agency does not believe the Volt or otherelectric vehicles are at a greater risk of fire than gasoline-powered vehicles"

 

To this:

According to Tesla's data (via CNN Money): . . . gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla.



#1855 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 23:30

Petrol

 

https://youtu.be/83BinHEbvvQ?t=219

 

Battery

 

https://youtu.be/bZ8IsMRFM5o?t=33

 

I rest my case



#1856 Bloggsworth

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 20:29

I will take your word on extinguishing although it seems EV battery packs (due to physical packaging style) do not exhibit the explosive characteristics seen in the various videos of laptop batteries etc.

 

As to intensity and temperature, the literature doesn't support your last sentence.

 

eg https://saemobilus-s...nt/2014-01-0428

 

"CONCLUSION

In this study, we conducted fire tests on gasoline vehicles and lithium-ion battery installing vehicles and obtained the following findings.

• Results of tests on vehicles that are run by two different types of battery indicated no explosion of batteries or scattering of battery materials for either type of battery.

• For LIB Vehicle-1, combustion of the battery continued after combustion of the vehicle had ended. However, no large differences in vehicle temperature were observed except inside the passenger area where the battery is installed, so it can be assumed that there are no significant differences in thermal influence around the two types of vehicle.

• Within the range of combustion gas analyzed, the maximum CO concentration measured above the roof was 564 ppm for the gasoline vehicle and 563 ppm for the lithium ion battery installing vehicle. There was thus almost no difference between the two types of vehicle. Furthermore, no HF was detected in either the gasoline vehicle or the lithium-ion battery installing vehicle."

 

As to the risk of a fire starting in the first place, estimates range from this:

"the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issued a statement saying that the agency does not believe the Volt or otherelectric vehicles are at a greater risk of fire than gasoline-powered vehicles"

 

To this:

According to Tesla's data (via CNN Money): . . . gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla.

 

Yes, all very well, but does a petrol fire spontaneously re-ignite 24 hours later, possibly in a closed building with no one there to attempt to re-extinguish it.



#1857 Greg Locock

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 23:28

Hot news. New tech may require new approaches to edge case problems.



#1858 Canuck

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 23:34

Edge cases? No way man, that's going to happen all day every day! All the time! Lithium is going to kill us all!!



#1859 BRG

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 19:20

And as if Elon Musk himself was monitoring this thread........

 

Might just be a stray cigarette butt, but let's not let that stop our fun!



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#1860 Canuck

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 19:42

Well, if it reignites later...

#1861 Bloggsworth

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Posted 03 March 2019 - 09:07

Hot news. New tech may require new approaches to edge case problems.

 

Perhaps the toxic foam they use on aircraft fires - Just what one needs in the middle of the high street.



#1862 Greg Locock

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Posted 03 March 2019 - 17:12

No, toxic foam in the shed where broken teslas are stored.



#1863 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 03 March 2019 - 19:34

And as if Elon Musk himself was monitoring this thread........

 

Might just be a stray cigarette butt, but let's not let that stop our fun!

 

 

http://www.grandprix...arage-fire.html

 

 

ICE are dangerous! Ban F1! Ban Ferraris!



#1864 Bloggsworth

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 19:13

Report today that you are 6% more likely to be run over by an AV if you're not white/have lighter skin tones! This from computer modelling by universities as the AV companies won't release actual statistics...



#1865 gruntguru

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 22:04

Makes sense.

 - AVs are mostly designed and programmed by white guys.

 - Whites are more likely to be driving than walking. 

 

Was the report based on actual incidents? Were the vehicles in fully autonomous mode with no observer at the controls. If the sample size was statistically significant this would be sensational news - "hundreds of pedestrians run over by AV prototypes"



#1866 Bloggsworth

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:18

Makes sense.

 - AVs are mostly designed and programmed by white guys.

 - Whites are more likely to be driving than walking. 

 

Was the report based on actual incidents? Were the vehicles in fully autonomous mode with no observer at the controls. If the sample size was statistically significant this would be sensational news - "hundreds of pedestrians run over by AV prototypes"

 

No, I said: "This from computer modelling by universities as the AV companies won't release actual statistics..."



#1867 Greg Locock

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:14

Sof if AVs run twice as many black pedestrians as white ones, but only run over 10% as many as human drivers, which is worse? AVs or humans? This is, of course, just silliness. Sure, the vision techniques need to be improved.



#1868 gruntguru

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 22:50

No, I said: "This from computer modelling by universities as the AV companies won't release actual statistics..."

Ahh missed that - sorry.

 

Any incident involving an AV gets hyper exposure in the media - and this forum. We haven't seen much - so I doubt there is much in the way of data.



#1869 Bloggsworth

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 14:41

https://www.independ...r-a8828096.html

 

Knock knock

 

Who's there?

 

Hacker

 

Hacker who?



#1870 Bloggsworth

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 14:20

Just watched the documentary about Theranos - Now there's a cautionary tale about the rush to new technology... The public are the test-bed as short-cuts are taken.



#1871 BRG

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 17:57

The unelected European Commission has just decided that we will all have speed limit controllers on our cars, thereby cutting the accident rate at a stroke.  So no need for driverless cars after all.  ;)



#1872 Greg Locock

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 22:26

The shopping list of stuff that you will have to pay for in your new EU car is amazing. I think it is about $2000 worth.



#1873 JacnGille

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 01:11

The unelected European Commission has just decided that we will all have speed limit controllers on our cars, thereby cutting the accident rate at a stroke.  So no need for driverless cars after all.  ;)

So the EC feels that speed is the only factor contributing to auto accidents?????? I hope they use more common sense and logic with their other decisions.



#1874 Canuck

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 03:50

And people say Brexit is just a bunch of racists. When I reached out to my Welsh friend, he listed a handful of reasons for his and his wife's pro-Brexit vote. None of them were about immigration - all of them were "these nonsense decisions being made in Brussels that impact our day-to-day lives". This sounds right up there.



#1875 Kelpiecross

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 04:42

And people say Brexit is just a bunch of racists. When I reached out to my Welsh friend, he listed a handful of reasons for his and his wife's pro-Brexit vote. None of them were about immigration - all of them were "these nonsense decisions being made in Brussels that impact our day-to-day lives". This sounds right up there.

 

 I have to agree.   After fighting off various European invasions for the last 1000 years,  why would you suddenly volunteer to be ruled by Belgium?  As ever with crazy ideas - it seems to be a mainly leftie thing to be a "remainer".    

 

 

  Your red fig leaf  seems to have a bit of a problem.      



#1876 BRG

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 19:29

The shopping list of stuff that you will have to pay for in your new EU car is amazing. I think it is about $2000 worth.

Yes, it all has to paid for and guess who by?  This speed limiter will require all cars to have GPS, so presumably all cars wil have satnav in future whether you want it or not.  Shame for the little old lady who just wants a cheap and cheerful shopping trolley of a car.



#1877 gruntguru

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 21:52

And people say Brexit is just a bunch of racists. When I reached out to my Welsh friend, he listed a handful of reasons for his and his wife's pro-Brexit vote. None of them were about immigration - all of them were "these nonsense decisions being made in Brussels that impact our day-to-day lives". This sounds right up there.

 . . . and yet the UK government has said they will uphold the speed limiter regs if Brexit happens.



#1878 gruntguru

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 21:55

The shopping list of stuff that you will have to pay for in your new EU car is amazing. I think it is about $2000 worth.

The lowest cost item is the "OFF" switch that will be fitted to the first generation of cars with the mandated technology.

 

It would be simpler to allow the customer to just say "no thanks" at the time of purchase.

 

This really is a very short-sighted piece of legislation. Safety systems and AV technology will overtake this in fairly short order anyway - without government intervention.

 

Greg. I believe Ford already have a product in the UK that has this functionality. How long do you think before there is sufficient accident data to quantify the safety value of this technology?


Edited by gruntguru, 28 March 2019 - 22:01.


#1879 404KF2

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 04:42

Drive an old car.  Easy peasy.



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#1880 gruntguru

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 05:26

Yep, mine are 10, 14 and 19 Y.O.



#1881 Greg Locock

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 06:10

"The European Commission’s head of markets, Elzbieta Bienkowska, said autonomous safety systems were the next major step in reducing road accidents, 90% of which are caused by human error.

More mandatory safety features are expected to be revealed within the next few years. 

The 11 safety features mandated from 2021
Advanced emergency braking

Alcohol interlock installation facilitation

Drowsiness and attention detection

Event (accident) data recorder

Emergency stop signal

Full-width frontal occupant protection crash test and improved seatbelts

Head impact zone enlargement for pedestrians and cyclists, as well as safety glass

Intelligent speed assistance 

Lane keeping assist 

Pole side impact occupant protection

Reversing camera or detection system"

 

They'll have to invent standards to assess these things. When ESC was mandated in the USA it was found that one company had an ESC system, but it had zero effect on the limit handling. So they introduced a performance test for it, basically it has to increase speeds through Lane Change  by a few  mph. There's no magic in ESC it can't create grip that doesn't exist.

 

I don't know enough about the stats to say when it would become obvious that these things help. Presumably manufacturers actually have some of that data already.



#1882 Tsarwash

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 10:14

Petrol

 

https://youtu.be/83BinHEbvvQ?t=219

 

Battery

 

https://youtu.be/bZ8IsMRFM5o?t=33

 

I rest my case

That really is not comparing like for like, is it ? Three or four gallons of petrol, compared with a phone battery. Edit, sorry, not even a phone battery, something much smaller. 


Edited by Tsarwash, 29 March 2019 - 10:15.


#1883 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 12:23

That really is not comparing like for like, is it ?


My point exactly. 1kg of petrol is way more explosive and volatile than 1kg of battery.

#1884 Tsarwash

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 12:43

My point exactly. 1kg of petrol is way more explosive and volatile than 1kg of battery.

That may well be true, but what those videos showed was a 10 - 20 kilo petrol explosion compared to a 10 - 20 gram lithium explosion. Also to be properly comparable you would want to demonstrate an actual car battery going up, with half a tank of petrol going up. 



#1885 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 15:29

That may well be true, but what those videos showed was a 10 - 20 kilo petrol explosion compared to a 10 - 20 gram lithium explosion. Also to be properly comparable you would want to demonstrate an actual car battery going up, with half a tank of petrol going up. 

 

Again, my point exactly (they aren't directly comparable hence my one sided attempt at comedic video comparison lost on yours truly  :kiss: )



#1886 Kelpiecross

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 03:46

Yep, mine are 10, 14 and 19 Y.O.

 

 Mine are 24, 25 and 70. 



#1887 404KF2

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 04:32

Mine are practically new compared to that: 12, 13 and 53.



#1888 Bloggsworth

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 08:31

My point exactly. 1kg of petrol is way more explosive and volatile than 1kg of battery.

 

Petrol is volatile and flashes off quickly, batteries keep on burning. Arsonists don't use petrol as small amounts are not guaranteed to burn for long enough to set anything else on fire, paraffin is the fuel of choice, or maybe toluene if they can get it  So I was told by a fire officer...



#1889 JacnGille

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 14:21

Here's a thought...instead of reinventing the wheel (pun intended) and making cars that idiots can operate safely, keep the idiots from behind the wheel to begin with. Here in the Colonies, we are reminded on a regular basis that "driving is a privilege, not a right".  Watching the evening news one gets a different idea. On far too regular a basis I see reports of a driver with a dozen or more traffic violations has caused a fatal accident. Why is that person still allowed to drive????



#1890 scolbourne

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 08:39

The lithium battery shown there, is a sealed in metal case single use lithium battery, which is very different to the rechargeable types used.

The metal case makes a high pressure container like a grenade.

Some rechargeable Lipo's use a soft plastic case which can burn with lots of smoke but no explosion from what I have witnessed. I have never seen a Tesla or any other electric car burn but this video gives an idea what to expect.

 



#1891 7MGTEsup

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 16:06

Here's a thought...instead of reinventing the wheel (pun intended) and making cars that idiots can operate safely, keep the idiots from behind the wheel to begin with. Here in the Colonies, we are reminded on a regular basis that "driving is a privilege, not a right".  Watching the evening news one gets a different idea. On far too regular a basis I see reports of a driver with a dozen or more traffic violations has caused a fatal accident. Why is that person still allowed to drive????

 

Because they have cried to the judge that taking away their licence would ruin their life and affect their children (never under estimate the power of using children to sway a court) or they simply just ignored the convictions and drove without a licence?

 

I think it's about time people understood that actions have consequences and you should think about them before you take the action and accept what comes your way if those actions affect other people and do harm to them.



#1892 imaginesix

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 08:08

The unelected European Commission has just decided that we will all have speed limit controllers on our cars, thereby cutting the accident rate at a stroke. So no need for driverless cars after all.  ;)

Like you wouldn't be crying in your tea when your government inevitably came to that decision themselves.

This Brexit nonsense is the greatest comedy going. I'm excited to get up every morning to find out the latest hysterical shenaninigan as you guys squabble and flounder because you can't all agree on exactly how superior you are to mainland Europeans, while letting every opportunity for a mutually beneficial agreement slip through your fingers.

You guys could be earning broadcast rights for this show, but just add that to the pile of missed opportunities I guess.

Edited by imaginesix, 06 April 2019 - 08:18.


#1893 BRG

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 18:20

Thank you for your kind words, imaginesix.  i promise that we won't smirk when Quebec secedes from Canada.

 

Actually, as we are still in thrall to the EU, we are getting the speed controllers whether I like it or not, according to our (I agree) incompetent government.



#1894 imaginesix

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 18:37

It's not the fact of extracting from the EU that's funny, it's the manifest buffoonery over the debate of how deserving you are to make your own rules and the expectation that you'll still come out on top somehow.



#1895 BRG

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 19:06

You're quite right.  We should just give up and do as we are told by those who know better than us.



#1896 Kelpiecross

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Posted 07 April 2019 - 04:06

Thank you for your kind words, imaginesix.  i promise that we won't smirk when Quebec secedes from Canada.

 

Actually, as we are still in thrall to the EU, we are getting the speed controllers whether I like it or not, according to our (I agree) incompetent government.

 

 Canadia would be better off without Quebec. 



#1897 Canuck

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Posted 07 April 2019 - 14:46

From a purely economic perspective, this is an accurate statement. The transfer payments into Quebec from the rest of Canada are enormous. (Transfer payments are perhaps the most blatant example of political actions that border the fuzzy line between socialism and communism, wherein the “have” provinces pump billions of dollars into the “have not” provinces based on a government formula.)

#1898 404KF2

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Posted 07 April 2019 - 16:30

Money isn't everything.  J'aime le Québec !



#1899 Canuck

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Posted 07 April 2019 - 18:44

Not wrong. Hence the strictly economic qualification. But it would be great if Quebec paid more of their own bills.