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Pirelli Tyres 2013 [merged]


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#201 Rinehart

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 15:15

"Drivers very rarely push 100% for an entire race distance" - true, but very rarely did they push for around 10% of the race distance as sometimes the case now.


I'd love to know where you get all your "facts" from!  ;)

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#202 Rinehart

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 15:23

PretentiousBread speaks a lot of truth here regarding the silly putty Pirellis.

Pirelli has taken a lot of the speed out of F1...you don't see guys on the limit anymore because it's not conducive to maintaining the tire longevity given how quickly they get destroyed.


I see, so Vettel and Alonso going hammer and tongs at Monza, Vettel and Hamilton at Austin, Webber v Alonso at Silverstone, Raikkonen v Alonso in Abu D... these were all conservation exercises where they?

#203 BoschKurve

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 15:39

I see, so Vettel and Alonso going hammer and tongs at Monza, Vettel and Hamilton at Austin, Webber v Alonso at Silverstone, Raikkonen v Alonso in Abu D... these were all conservation exercises where they?


Something that occurs for only a small window of time is not the norm as you'd like to imply.

COTA was possible because of the track surface.

What I remember more about Monza was Perez charging through the field (while driving a car that was better on the tires than anyone else) near the end while Alonso didn't even make any real effort to battle him.

Don't kid yourself here by defending these silly putty tires. Why I recall Kimi hitting marbles in Shanghai and having his tires destroyed because they have no durability.

#204 pingu666

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 18:56

they could pushing up to a low limit, pacing themselves not so much to a time, but trying to stress the tyres a certain amount

le mans has had cars and drivers beat there qualy times in the race, sometimes several times, like in 2011


#205 MP422

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 23:27

I see, so Vettel and Alonso going hammer and tongs at Monza, Vettel and Hamilton at Austin, Webber v Alonso at Silverstone, Raikkonen v Alonso in Abu D... these were all conservation exercises where they?



Not all but yea absolutely, were you watching F1 before pirelli ? Seriously have not heard a driver or team mention a delta ? Nobody was talking about deltas before pirellis.

#206 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:44

^^ That's so wrong, they drove to target times all the time in the refuelling era.

#207 OO7

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 14:07

they could pushing up to a low limit, pacing themselves not so much to a time, but trying to stress the tyres a certain amount

le mans has had cars and drivers beat there qualy times in the race, sometimes several times, like in 2011

From what I recall Le Mans is now a series of sprint races. You often hear of teams triple stinting the tyres, sometimes even quadruple stinting them. This was the case a few years ago anyway.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 23 February 2013 - 14:38.


#208 ApexMouse

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 14:35

Not all but yea absolutely, were you watching F1 before pirelli ? Seriously have not heard a driver or team mention a delta ? Nobody was talking about deltas before pirellis.


Complete and utter mouthcack.

#209 OO7

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 14:45

My impression is that pre-Pirelli, the delta time was used primarily as a benchmark that a driver should at least maintain to prevent losing a position, to gain a position or simply to deliver the best racing time and best result for a team e.g win the race. With Pirelli it appears that the delta is used primarily to manage the tyres with the benefits of doing so being complimentary.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 23 February 2013 - 14:46.


#210 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 14:46

^^ That's so wrong, they drove to target times all the time in the refuelling era.


Yes, target lap times to aim at, completely different to target lap times to keep to and discouraged at going beyond.

#211 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 14:48

My impression is that pre-Pirelli, the delta time was used primarily as a benchmark that a driver should at least maintain to prevent losing a position, to gain a position or simply to deliver the best racing time and best result for a team e.g win the race. With Pirelli it appears that the delta is used primarily to manage the tyres with the benefits of doing so being complimentary.


Exactly, massive difference.

#212 pingu666

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 14:58

yeah, i think the le mans track is easier on tyres, so they do last longer there than other tracks, 4x 45mins roughly. the chinese track ate tyres in the wec, about a stint and abit of life in the tyres for lmp1


#213 peroa

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 16:09

Another factor is the tyre debris.
Seems worse like 2011.
http://blog.axisofov.....Of Oversteer)
Which in effect kills any racing left after a few laps, since there will be only one driveable line.

#214 boldhakka

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 16:21

Another factor is the tyre debris.
Seems worse like 2011.
http://blog.axisofov.....Of Oversteer)
Which in effect kills any racing left after a few laps, since there will be only one driveable line.


Yikes. I wonder how the drivers feel. To be fair this is only due to the excess cold. Should be much better when the race actually runs here.

I don't think drivers are driving to any specific delta, they simply go as quick as possible without wheel spin and slip. Yes, that means the have to be careful and not push as much, but the delta thing is a myth. Kimi would not tolerate being fed some "delta" over the radio.

#215 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 18:23

Yes, target lap times to aim at, completely different to target lap times to keep to and discouraged at going beyond.


Even if that was the case the way you phrase it, saying "driving to delta never happened before Pirelli" would still be wrong. But you are incorrect anyway, the target times were at the very least a function of expected tyre degradation, allowed fuel consumption until the next scheduled stop, and strategic considerations.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 23 February 2013 - 18:24.


#216 OO7

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 18:40

Even if that was the case the way you phrase it, saying "driving to delta never happened before Pirelli" would still be wrong. But you are incorrect anyway, the target times were at the very least a function of expected tyre degradation, allowed fuel consumption until the next scheduled stop, and strategic considerations.

But in all of that, what would you say was the primary driving factor to the delta time prior to Pirelli's most recent involvement in the sport?

#217 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 18:52

But in all of that, what would you say was the primary driving factor to the delta time prior to Pirelli's most recent involvement in the sport?


(Edit: For a given car,) fuel consumption, IMO. I don't see how fuel being the limiting factor is fundamentally different and better than tyres being the limiting factor. Necessarily, something will always be the limiting factor.

Edit: And I mentioned it before it other Pirelli threads, but the irrational Pirelli hater brigade conveniently ignore it: tyre graining was a huge issue at times before Pirelli.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 23 February 2013 - 19:14.


#218 pingu666

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 23:01

its hard to know how exactly the pirelli's measure up to the bridgestones, because of the rule changes, and what they are allowed to say aswell

#219 BigCHrome

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 23:27

Not only are Pirelli tires total junk, but they also have some god awful branding on the tires. Orange tires... seriously??? Looks horrible with every single livery in F1.

yeah, i think the le mans track is easier on tyres, so they do last longer there than other tracks, 4x 45mins roughly. the chinese track ate tyres in the wec, about a stint and abit of life in the tyres for lmp1


Those Michelins are quality tires. Stints in WEC are determined by fuel loads, not tires. One stint is a full tank - I believe 80 or 90 kg for diesels.

Edited by BigCHrome, 23 February 2013 - 23:30.


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#220 Sin

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:02

I wonder if Pirelli make condoms... and if they do, how long do they last?

.... out of silly into serious...

I'm not sure how much indication the tyre degradation of the testing is for the actual racing, since its colder in Barcelona than it will be in Melbourne...

But me personally I liked the tyre wars

#221 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:38

Your wish, Sin

#222 JV97

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 13:28

I've always been pretty critical of these Pirelli tyres but towards the last 3rd of last season I thought we'd finally got to a position where they're very good. Not lasting a whole race, room for different strategies and drivers being told to push 100%, take everything out of the tyres etc etc.

Then my heart sank when I heard they were going to mess about again this year to make for more induced pitstops.

Sigh

#223 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 13:33

I've always been pretty critical of these Pirelli tyres but towards the last 3rd of last season I thought we'd finally got to a position where they're very good. Not lasting a whole race, room for different strategies and drivers being told to push 100%, take everything out of the tyres etc etc.

Then my heart sank when I heard they were going to mess about again this year to make for more induced pitstops.

Sigh


I can see the sentiment, but please keep in mind that that's what F1 wanted (Whitmarsh is on record with quotes), and not necessarily Pirelli's idea.

#224 Vesuvius

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 13:43

I've always been pretty critical of these Pirelli tyres but towards the last 3rd of last season I thought we'd finally got to a position where they're very good. Not lasting a whole race, room for different strategies and drivers being told to push 100%, take everything out of the tyres etc etc.

Then my heart sank when I heard they were going to mess about again this year to make for more induced pitstops.

Sigh



Last third of 2012 tyres easily lasted the whole race or at least so that it was possible to finnish with one stop in many races and that's why most of the races were boring as hell in the latter half except some like austin and brazil and those were good because of the layout,weather and tyres.

Pirelli was asked by the teams and FIA to make tyres for 2013 that will make races to have 2-3 stops and that's what hey have done. Jenson Button just said tyres are normal, there is deagaration but teams know how they work and tey ate easy to understand, Kimi,Bottas and Vergne said the same.


#225 mclarennut

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 13:53

I wonder if Pirelli make condoms... and if they do, how long do they last?


As long as they lasted one flying lap I would be happy :)


#226 Rinehart

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 23:50

Not all but yea absolutely, were you watching F1 before pirelli ? Seriously have not heard a driver or team mention a delta ? Nobody was talking about deltas before pirellis.


Hahahaha. Were you watching, more like.

Edited by Rinehart, 28 February 2013 - 00:00.


#227 Rinehart

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 23:56

Yes, target lap times to aim at, completely different to target lap times to keep to and discouraged at going beyond.


Wtf
Jenson Button today: We've tested an aggressive stint v a stint looking after the tyres and the overall stint times are basically the same. :wave: Seriously this whole delta thing is totally debunked. You heard a couple of drivers wringing about it on a couple of occasions and took it as gospel.

#228 Rinehart

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 00:02

Countless drivers?
Care to back that up with a few quotes.


Anyone?

#229 Cool Beans

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:38

Another factor is the tyre debris.
Seems worse like 2011.
http://blog.axisofov.....Of Oversteer)
Which in effect kills any racing left after a few laps, since there will be only one driveable line.

Oh crap. This is what I've been dreading when I learnt the new Pirelli's degrade like crazy. There were already races last season where the marbles formed a very narrow track, imagine driving over that.

Posted Image

Edited by Cool Beans, 28 February 2013 - 01:41.


#230 packapoo

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 15:19

Even a seeing-eye dog would be able to spot the racing line there!