39 replies to this topic

[Jimisgod]

Williams FW07D ^



March 2-4-0 ^

It has come to my attention that everyone wants greater mechanical grip and less aero-drag. So this is a fine way to solve the problem of dirty air destroying grip for the following cars.

What arguments can people bring to justify the ban on this kind of innovation?

Edited by Jimisgod, 18 October 2012 - 16:03.

[korzeniow]

What arguments can people bring to justify the ban on this kind of innovation?

global warming

[Rob]

It has come to my attention that everyone wants greater mechanical grip and less aero-drag. So this is a fine way to solve the problem of dirty air destroying grip for the following cars.

Dirty air ruins front grip doesn't it? Having extra grip at the rear won't help that.

[Jimisgod]

Dirty air ruins front grip doesn't it? Having extra grip at the rear won't help that.

Better traction though.

[ForeverF1]

Dirty air ruins front grip doesn't it? Having extra grip at the rear won't help that.

Enter the P34.

[TheWilliamzer]

How will McLaren do in pitstops when it got 2 rear left wheels?

[TFLB]

global warming

It doesn't exist. At least, it's not caused by humans.

[King Six]

That's an interesting question. I do wonder what justification the FIA and others had in banning the 6 wheeled cars (or mandating that cars should have 4 wheels). Perhaps a cost cutting measure. Maybe safety too, more wheels = more wheels to fly around in an accident.

Edited by King Six, 18 October 2012 - 16:19.

[eronrules]

no it doesn't, what it needs is wheel cover & fighter canopy for better aerodynamics and low drag ... enter Red Bull X1 the future of F1 ...



now if u excuse me, i have to clean my keyboard

Edited by eronrules, 18 October 2012 - 16:24.

[King Six]

Yeah but it would look even more insane with 6 wheels, think about it

[King Six]

I've done some research and I haven't found a better excuse other than the 6 wheeled cars were 'too good' so the FIA banned it.

Anyone know the real FIA reason for banning 6 wheelers? I guess back then F1 was even more shady and disgusting, no doubt an influential team(s) and a bunch of conservative old farts didn't like the idea so banned it for whatever reason they could think of.

I guess some people take it for granted how it is nowadays, with the FIA trying to actually justify what they are doing.

[Clatter]

That's an interesting question. I do wonder what justification the FIA and others had in banning the 6 wheeled cars (or mandating that cars should have 4 wheels). Perhaps a cost cutting measure. Maybe safety too, more wheels = more wheels to fly around in an accident.

Costs plus slowing the cars down.

[Jimisgod]

I've done some research and I haven't found a better excuse other than the 6 wheeled cars were 'too good' so the FIA banned it.

Anyone know the real FIA reason for banning 6 wheelers? I guess back then F1 was even more shady and disgusting, no doubt an influential team(s) and a bunch of conservative old farts didn't like the idea so banned it for whatever reason they could think of.

I guess some people take it for granted how it is nowadays, with the FIA trying to actually justify what they are doing.

The idea I've heard was that Williams looked likely to run the 6-wheeler at some point in 1982/83 (?)

We were all intrigued to see if we could balance a car that had such a large contact patch at the rear and we quickly discovered that we could. I remember Jonathan Palmer telling me that he couldn’t really tell that there were four wheels at the back, although the traction out of slow corners was phenomenal. - Patrick Head

There was also talk of an 8 or 12 wheel turbine (!) car being thought of.

http://www.f1fanatic...wheeled-f1-car/

Edited by Jimisgod, 18 October 2012 - 16:41.

[eronrules]

Yeah but it would look even more insane with 6 wheels, think about it

why not do away with one rear wheel??? why not 3 wheeler f1 cars with really PHAT rear wheel??? why not make a formula version of this ...

the marotti concept car ...

or the T-rex ...

[engel]

why not do away with one rear wheel??? why not 3 wheeler f1 cars with really PHAT rear wheel??? why not make a formula version of this ...

Cause it's a different thing trying to drive the 200bhp of a motorcycle engine and the 750bhp of an F1 engine through a single tyre?
(traction would suck, race starts would be similar to slomo replays - upside: Grosjean would be safe

[RedBaron]

No it doesn't need more wheels.

[outofbounds]

Cause it's a different thing trying to drive the 200bhp of a motorcycle engine and the 750bhp of an F1 engine through a single tyre?
(traction would suck, race starts would be similar to slomo replays - upside: Grosjean would be safe

Something tells me the handling would be pretty bad too. Whatever stresses are currently on the rear suspension would now be on... nothing.

[johnmhinds]

I'm sure that a modern F1 car already has far better traction than the 6 wheeled cars of the 80s.

6 wheels might have helped in a time when the concept of car aerodynamics was still being perfected but i'm not sure it would give you any benefit now.

And if it was allowed and did have a traction advantage everyone would do it and cancel out any traction advantage and make the whole thing pointless.

[prty]

Better traction though.

Perfect to kill the overtaking opportunities.

[gm914]

Bringing 6 wheelers back to F1 would be great. We could all blame Pirelli 1.5x as much as we do now.

[Atreiu]

I'd rather 50l fuel tanks and whatever engine/powertrain/whatever possible.

@gm914 hahahaha, great!

Edited by Atreiu, 18 October 2012 - 17:58.

[Sakae]

no it doesn't, what it needs is wheel cover & fighter canopy for better aerodynamics and low drag ... enter Red Bull X1 the future of F1 ...



now if u excuse me, i have to clean my keyboard

This is beautiful.

[eronrules]

Something tells me the handling would be pretty bad too. Whatever stresses are currently on the rear suspension would now be on... nothing.

the stresses will be handled by front suspension ... here's a promo vid of peugeot concept 20cup ...
peugeot 20cup

and here's a track day of T-rex in suzuka

http://www.youtube.c...;feature=relmfu

[Scotracer]

Dirty air ruins front grip doesn't it? Having extra grip at the rear won't help that.

No. It's fairly uniform. I've seen the data

[gm914]

or the T-rex ...

I saw one of these bad boys doing donuts on a NYC street, coming home from work late one night. There were cheers!

[Andrew Hope]

<3.

[TimRTC]

I've done some research and I haven't found a better excuse other than the 6 wheeled cars were 'too good' so the FIA banned it.

Anyone know the real FIA reason for banning 6 wheelers? I guess back then F1 was even more shady and disgusting, no doubt an influential team(s) and a bunch of conservative old farts didn't like the idea so banned it for whatever reason they could think of.

Actually they were not trying to ban 6-wheelers specifically, they were trying to ban 4WD and to do so specified in the rules that the cars must have four wheels, two powered - probably only incidentally considered the 6-wheelers at the time, none of which were running at the time AFAIK.

[midgrid]

Enrique Scalabroni's F1 concept:

[eronrules]

Enrique Scalabroni's F1 concept:

now do a 3 sec pitstop with this badboy

[Skinnyguy]

I saw one of these bad boys doing donuts on a NYC street, coming home from work late one night. There were cheers!

How can anyone cheer an imbecile doing that stuff in an open road is beyond me.

[gm914]

How can anyone cheer an imbecile doing that stuff in an open road is beyond me.

Because I'm an imbecile too.

It was 3am on a deserted 4 lane road. No harm.

[Les]

Enrique Scalabroni's F1 concept:

Why didn't it catch on?

[R Soul]

It didn't catch on because it's gibberish.

[Skinnyguy]

It was 3am on a deserted 4 lane road. No harm.

Like these "deserted" mountain roads where morons takes both lanes "because no one comes here", and crashes into another idiot doing exactly the same, thinking exactly the same?

Yeah, I know, it´s always "no-harm", until it goes over a sidewalk and kills a random guy, or it spears through the wall of a building. People who can´t grasp what´s a road and what´s it´s purpose shouldn´t be allowed to get close to anything with wheels. No excuses.

[gm914]

You're right.

Let's ban Lewis!

[Les]

It didn't catch on because it's gibberish.

Yeah thanks for pointing it out for me!

[jj2728]

I've done some research and I haven't found a better excuse other than the 6 wheeled cars were 'too good' so the FIA banned it.

Anyone know the real FIA reason for banning 6 wheelers? I guess back then F1 was even more shady and disgusting, no doubt an influential team(s) and a bunch of conservative old farts didn't like the idea so banned it for whatever reason they could think of.

I guess some people take it for granted how it is nowadays, with the FIA trying to actually justify what they are doing.

Shady and disgusting? I've no idea where you draw that conclusion from.
Anyhow, the 6 wheeled technology was never gonna take off. I know that a few teams tested them, Ferrari even went the tandem route, but the only 6 wheeler to be somewhat competitive and win a race was the '76 Tyrrell P34. The cars and concept were not 'too good'. Someone mentioned 4wd earlier. In 1969 several teams experimented with 4wd, McLaren, Lotus, Matra and Cosworth, but as the teams began to understand the complexities of aero downforce and grip (which then was in its infancy) they began to understand that 4wd offered zero advantages. The cars were overweight and piggishly slow. I know that Chapman perservered, much to the consternation of his drivers, but the whole concept was a lame duck.

[Wolf]

Earlier than that there was Ferguson P99- 4WD that managed to even win a non-c'ship race (OTTOMH I'd say Gold Cup in '61) in wet, with Moss at the wheel...

[Kingshark]

How will McLaren do in pitstops when it got 2 rear left wheels?

[TennisUK]

Shady and disgusting? I've no idea where you draw that conclusion from.
Anyhow, the 6 wheeled technology was never gonna take off. I know that a few teams tested them, Ferrari even went the tandem route, but the only 6 wheeler to be somewhat competitive and win a race was the '76 Tyrrell P34. The cars and concept were not 'too good'. Someone mentioned 4wd earlier. In 1969 several teams experimented with 4wd, McLaren, Lotus, Matra and Cosworth, but as the teams began to understand the complexities of aero downforce and grip (which then was in its infancy) they began to understand that 4wd offered zero advantages. The cars were overweight and piggishly slow. I know that Chapman perservered, much to the consternation of his drivers, but the whole concept was a lame duck.

Not actually correct. The FW07D and FW08B (as Williams actually built two 6 wheel prototypes) both set very competitive times in testing - the FW08B in particular.

As for 4WD not working out - not actually entirely accurate either. At Indy the system proved to be VERY quick - so much so it was banned along with turbines (albeit before it actually won because of reliability issues) - but the constant radius corners at INdy suited the configuration more than road courses and the extra weight wasn't really an issue since the high speeds were consistent. In F1 Dave Walker was well within a shout of a win in F1 in Zandvort in 1971 in the Lotus 56B too - but it was raining which was always going to play to the 4WD's strengths. Too bad he binned it after 5 laps (rising from 22nd to 10th in that time and being by far the quickest on track). Jochen Rindt came second in a Lotus 63 at the Oulton Park Gold Cup in 1969, too - but that car WAS a shed and only worked with practically all the power going to the back...