70 replies to this topic

[gruntguru]

As I said elsewhere - "I wonder how many billions we waste through lack of worldwide standardisation - Metric/imperial, 110V/240V, Left-hand-drive/RHD . . . . . ."

There must be millions of ridiculous examples out there? I want to hear them.

What are your thoughts on World standardisation? Some are no brainers eg "all vehicles in the northern hemisphere should drive on the left side of the road and the right hand side for the southern hemisphere. This will reduce the incidence of hurricanes/cyclones whatever you want to call them.

Some are debatable. Are Whitworth threads technically superior to UNC, ISO etc etc?

[Greg Locock]

Are Whitworth threads technically superior to UNC, ISO etc etc?

Yes. No bastard will steal your spanners.

[desmo]

I was told Whitworth fasteners were used for F1 con-rod bolts far beyond their era because of the closer to optimal threadform. I trusted the source but it could be mythology I suppose too.

[MatsNorway]

Threads go a long way to go before its easy to get around.

You got.

BSP (British standard pipe) http://en.wikipedia....h_Standard_Pipe
BSPF (fine)
BSPT (taper)
BSW (British standard withworth)
BSF (Fine)
BSC (http://en.wikipedia...._Standard_Cycle) ( mostly dead but used on bicycles from china sometimes)
British Standard Brass (used on water) http://en.wikipedia....rd_brass_thread only has 26 threads pr inch regardless of size
UNC
UNF
UNEF (extra fine)
NPT (national pipe thread) American pipe type (differs from BSP due to different teeth pr inch i believe)
NPTF (fuel)
GHT (garden hose thread) most places uses BSP. They are not compatible. http://en.wikipedia...._and_connectors
M
MF (fine)

Pg http://en.wikipedia....i/Panzergewinde

and so on.

Then there is plenty more like trapes threads and rounded threads.. lightbulbs etc got their own standard i bet. Its probably for the safer mind you.

"Nearly all current still cameras accept a 1/4" UNC thread in their tripod baseplate though the UNC is close enough to Whitworth that it will fit, and many motion picture cameras accept a 3/8" UNC and, again, the Whitworth is close enough to fit, while a 5/8" UNC thread is the accepted standard for tripod mounted land surveying equipment and, once again, the Whitworth will fit.

The Leica Thread-Mount used on rangefinder cameras and on many enlarging lenses is 1 17⁄32 inches by 26 turns-per-inch Whitworth, an artifact of this having been developed by a German company specializing in microscopes and thus equipped with tooling capable of handling threads in inches and in Whitworth.

5/32" Whitworth threads have been the standard Meccano thread for many years and it is still the thread in use by the French Meccano Company"


These standard pipe threads are formally referred to by the following sequence of blocks:

the words "Pipe thread",
the document number of the standard (e.g., "ISO 7" or "EN 10226")
the symbol for the pipe thread type:
G = external + internal parallel (ISO 228)
R = external taper (ISO 7)
Rp = internal parallel (ISO 7/1)
Rc = internal taper (ISO 7)
Rs = external parallel
the thread size

Threads are normally right-hand. For left-hand threads, the letters "LH" are appended.

Example: Pipe thread EN 10226 Rp 2½

The terminology for the use of G and R originated from Germany (G for gas, as it was originally designed for use on gas pipes; R for rohr (meaning pipe).)


Threads is a serious pain.... R 1" for example i believe WAS considered the same as G 1" in norway while the wiki links states its taper.. ive seen charts with both letters. ( i believe i must double check this now)

I think we now use ISO standard. G

Edited by MatsNorway, 26 October 2012 - 09:05.

[MatsNorway]

What are your thoughts on World standardisation?

Do it. the quicker the better.

Railway also got some serious issues with all the different track gauges.


http://upload.wikime...lway_Museum.jpg
http://upload.wikime...Track_gauge.svg

Bigger version
http://upload.wikime...gauge_world.png

Edited by MatsNorway, 26 October 2012 - 09:09.

[naiboz]

you could go a step further, in terms of cost saving

instead of just standardisation, why not eliminate (all) competition

why do we need tens if not hundreds of electronics companys, spending vast sums of money, on designing niftier tv's, or mp3 players, or different toothpastes, cars, mobile phones, etc etc

surely we only really need one tv maker

competition is what your realy talking about here, differing, competing standards, each with their own pro's and con's, each favoured by different groups for one reason or another

[munks]

Actually in some cases the lack of standards prevents competition, for example in getting replacement parts. If you're stuck with the OEM's replacements because they used an arbitrary 'standard', you're going to get overcharged.

[carlt]

Threads go a long way to go before its easy to get around.

That really depends on how you pitch it

[Tony Matthews]

That sort of comment drives me nuts.

[Greg Locock]

Mats you can add BA to your list (British Association) - they were a fairly small size of machine screw used for model engineering. 0BA was about 5mm, 8BA about 2mm. Also the handcut fine thread series used by jewellers and optical manufacturers were often based on 32 tpi, whatever the OD.

[crooky369]

As I said elsewhere - "I wonder how many billions we waste through lack of worldwide standardisation - Metric/imperial, 110V/240V, Left-hand-drive/RHD . . . . . ."

There must be millions of ridiculous examples out there? I want to hear them.

What are your thoughts on World standardisation? Some are no brainers eg "all vehicles in the northern hemisphere should drive on the left side of the road and the right hand side for the southern hemisphere. This will reduce the incidence of hurricanes/cyclones whatever you want to call them.

Some are debatable. Are Whitworth threads technically superior to UNC, ISO etc etc?

Err...

Feel stupid asking but... is that a joke?

[gruntguru]

Feel stupid asking but... is that a joke?

I think it is mathematically correct. Makes sense to me. Whether the effect would be measurable or make a difference is another matter.

[gruntguru]

Railway also got some serious issues with all the different track gauges.
http://upload.wikime...lway_Museum.jpg
http://upload.wikime...Track_gauge.svg

According to the map Australia seems to have a consistent gauge!!!

I can assure you the the three biggest states (by population) can poudly claim 3 different railway gauges. Queensland = Narrow gauge, NSW = Standard gauge and Victoria = Wide gauge. The other states are mostly standard gauge.

Very sensible don't you think.

[desmo]

According to the map Australia seems to have a consistent gauge!!!

I can assure you the the three biggest states (by population) can poudly claim 3 different railway gauges. Queensland = Narrow gauge, NSW = Standard gauge and Victoria = Wide gauge. The other states are mostly standard gauge.

Very sensible don't you think.

Might make perfect sense from a parochial business POV. Or not.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

How do you enforce uniform standards? Force most of the world to rip up their railroad tracks and re-lay them? Or do you just give up on things that are already facts on the ground, and just be very meticulous establishing standards for new technologies, when people still don't know what will come of them and are still going through trial and error?

[carlt]

That sort of comment drives me nuts.

what you need then are driverless nuts

though hitting california with them would be painful

[MatsNorway]

According to the map Australia seems to have a consistent gauge!!!

I can assure you the the three biggest states (by population) can poudly claim 3 different railway gauges. Queensland = Narrow gauge, NSW = Standard gauge and Victoria = Wide gauge. The other states are mostly standard gauge.

Very sensible don't you think.

Actually it states 3. one with the color of the country and two more with the dots.

There is some gauges that can be simplified. the narrowest can take a 1435 on the outside. meaning you can run both until the narrow gauge stuff is ready for being faced out.
1372 are close enought that a new wheeldisk or new profile could be enough but it prob would demand a recalculation of loads and train behavior. In poor countries that would be a more valid option. Like the african countries running 1372 and switching to 1435. they need 63mm. that said they probably just buy adjusted 1435 stuff now.

Lots of countries like Chile and Argentina got 1435 too.

India got four different.

Jordan got one no one else uses.

It will become 1435 in time. but im dead when most of the world runs it.

Spain and portugal so on will gradually switch over as they get speed trains to rest of europe. They are also alone on that gauge.

Edited by MatsNorway, 27 October 2012 - 09:05.

[Magoo]

I like colorful, unusual, local systems of measure. I don't want jackbooted efficiency experts coming around here in their black UN helicopters to tell us in what units we must sell our sweet corn and hypoid grease. Seriously, bugger off.

Just look at all the centuries of rich, divergent culture that would be lost through feckless standardization.


http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/


Which reminds me: learn how to spell standardization, dumbass.

[gruntguru]

You mean arse?

Actually, I'm all for cultural diversity - language, music, culture, religion, cuisine etc. When it comes to engineering, safety, commerce etc there are a whole lot of things that would make life a lot easier, safer and cheaper if they had been done the same way from the beginning. Which side of the road to drive on is a good example.

Edited by gruntguru, 27 October 2012 - 09:19.

[carlt]

trouble is that any new invention/idea wishing to 'improve' the standard would be quashed because it doesn't conform

[Kelpiecross]

I think it is mathematically correct. Makes sense to me. Whether the effect would be measurable or make a difference is another matter.

I thought the myth was that the fact that the US drives on the right caused the US to have a lot of tornados - not cyclones etc.?

There are indeed standards for light bulb threads - I think mainly based on size variations of the original Edison thread form.

I actually find the complex world of thread forms etc. very interesting (in an historical sense) and no real hindrance in a practical sense.

[Magoo]

You mean arse?

Actually, I'm all for cultural diversity - language, music, culture, religion, cuisine etc. When it comes to engineering, safety, commerce etc there are a whole lot of things that would make life a lot easier, safer and cheaper if they had been done the same way from the beginning. Which side of the road to drive on is a good example.

Then learn how to drive on the correct side of the road. Honestly, I don't follow your complaint. I hope you weren't expecting the rest of the world to reverse proper practice and take up driving in your wrong and stupid manner just for the sake of your precious standardization. That makes no sense at all.

[Kelpiecross]

Then learn how to drive on the correct side of the road. Honestly, I don't follow your complaint. I hope you weren't expecting the rest of the world to reverse proper practice and take up driving in your wrong and stupid manner just for the sake of your precious standardization. That makes no sense at all.

"Arse" is the correct spelling - and driving on the left side of the road is the only correct method (and it doesn't cause tornados either).

[Magoo]

"Arse" is the correct spelling - and driving on the left side of the road is the only correct method (and it doesn't cause tornados either).

Only according to people who like Coldplay.

[MatsNorway]

We go to whats most common if there is no obvious reason to switch to something less common or new.

Having different threads for bicycles for instance is a stupid idea and will cause extra pain.

Enerpac got threads that are not according to any standard. I can`t say i dig that.

[Patrick Morgan]

Stop screwing and start riveting!

I have a 1970's sticker on my dresser draw to that effect. It was a good slogan.

Carol Smiths "Nuts and Bolts" book was originally called "Screw to Win" which I thought was rather good.

Edited by Patrick Morgan, 27 October 2012 - 21:37.

[Wuzak]

"Arse" is the correct spelling - and driving on the left side of the road is the only correct method (and it doesn't cause tornados either).

Only according to people who like Coldplay.

Arse




Ass

[Tony Matthews]

Coldplay fan.

[Wuzak]

Coldplay fan.

[Wuzak]

The story behind the British, and their Empire/Commonwealth, driving on the left hand side of the road in right hand drive cars goes back a couple of centuries, where riders would ride on the left so that they could draw and fight with their swords if necessary.

What is the history behind driving on the right?

[Lee Nicolle]

According to the map Australia seems to have a consistent gauge!!!

I can assure you the the three biggest states (by population) can poudly claim 3 different railway gauges. Queensland = Narrow gauge, NSW = Standard gauge and Victoria = Wide gauge. The other states are mostly standard gauge.

Very sensible don't you think.

I have been to Peterborfough, which was the train capital of Australia where all 3 guages met.3'6, 4'8 and 5'3.With all the tuntables and infrstucture to suit including loco repair sheds,[for both steam and diesel] carraige storage sheds.
Now the trains just roar by on the standardised 4'8 line. Though there is still some lines that are not standard even now, and as was said Qld is narrow guage as clearly they do not have enough room for wider lines!! and some of Victoria is still wide .
Until a few years ago there was 2 sets of rails through the Adelaide Hills as the suburan lines were broad guage and the interstate was medium. The demise unfortunatly precluded the Steam Ranger people running their trains from Adelaide to Victor Harbor. Now they start at My Barker on the old broad guage line. A double pity as the trip through the hills with steam was fun, and now all the grain that was carried on that line to Adelaide is now trucked stuffing up the roads as they do .
Many other country lines were lost in standardisation

[gruntguru]

So when an American calls you "dumbass" he is comparing you to a stupid donkey? . . and "smart-ass"?

When he calls you "bad-ass" is he likening you to a naughty donkey or a festering rear-end?

And what of "lard-ass"? This would have to imply your bottom is on the wide side? Surely he is not comparing you to a donkey bred specially for rendering to make oleo or lubricants?

In Ozian (and in UK English) there is no confusion. Arse and ass are pronounced differently.

[Grumbles]

Then learn how to drive on the correct side of the road. Honestly, I don't follow your complaint. I hope you weren't expecting the rest of the world to reverse proper practice and take up driving in your wrong and stupid manner just for the sake of your precious standardization. That makes no sense at all.

Pay no attention to this heathen. I mean really, how can you take any nation seriously that doesn't have enough sense to include beetroot on a standard hamburger...

[Bob Riebe]

Variety is the spice of life.

There used to be a movie on PBS stations that showed the result if the world became one pathetic civilization where all became the same pathetic grey standard.

There are those who stand at the bottom whining about supposed difficulties and those who handle them and keep on climbing

[Magoo]

Pay no attention to this heathen. I mean really, how can you take any nation seriously that doesn't have enough sense to include beetroot on a standard hamburger...

In America we invented the hamburger and all jibes aside, if you have ever had a real one properly prepared, you won't want anything at all on it, except possibly a very thin slice of fresh white onion to heighten the beef flavor. Condiments and other features are only necessary to dress up the taste of a less than ideal hamburger, for example from fast-food chains. With a real hamburger, arguing about which vegetable should go on it is rather like arguing which cola mixes best with 18 year-old Scotch. A really good burger is as delicious as a fine steak.

[Kelpiecross]

In America we invented the hamburger and all jibes aside, if you have ever had a real one properly prepared, you won't want anything at all on it, except possibly a very thin slice of fresh white onion to heighten the beef flavor. Condiments and other features are only necessary to dress up the taste of a less than ideal hamburger, for example from fast-food chains. With a real hamburger, arguing about which vegetable should go on it is rather like arguing which cola mixes best with 18 year-old Scotch. A really good burger is as delicious as a fine steak.

A hamburger is not a hamburger without plenty of salad and especially beetroot (plus, preferably, egg and pineapple).

The first time I tasted a genuine US-type meat-only hamburger I actually thought that they had forgotten the salad and beetroot etc.

I don't think McDonalds sell a US-type meat-only burger in Oz.

Any Scotch tastes like 18-year old dog's piss to me.

[NTSOS]

A hamburger is not a hamburger without plenty of salad and especially beetroot (plus, preferably, egg and pineapple).

There used to be an old OZ transplant here in San Jose that ran a hamburger stand and made a replica of the above......he used to call it a Whoppa before there was a BK Whopper.

I personally like to use ground chuck, mix in red onions, garlic, parsley and grill it on an open flame, then top it with olive oil and butter on a sour dough roll!

John

[Magoo]

A hamburger is not a hamburger without plenty of salad and especially beetroot (plus, preferably, egg and pineapple).

The first time I tasted a genuine US-type meat-only hamburger I actually thought that they had forgotten the salad and beetroot etc.

I don't think McDonalds sell a US-type meat-only burger in Oz.

Any Scotch tastes like 18-year old dog's piss to me.

Oh, sure. Indeed, at any point in the history of civilization can be found primitive peoples who are at their happiest dining raw at the village gut-pile (also, painting themselves blue, etc). In anthropology we learn that it is wrong to judge or try to force progress upon these savages, these are valid cultures in their own right. The best course is probably to let them thrive and survive without our interference and check in every few hundred years to see if they have discovered fire, learned how to make shoes, etc.

Live and let live, that's my credo.

[munks]

I hate to say something partly serious here, but computers have no trouble dividing by 14.5939029, so there is no real need to complete the transition to the metric system. And speaking of which, ten is a completely arbitrary and poor basis for a numbering system. Why not something computer-friendly these days, like hexadecimal?

-munks

There are 10 types of people in this world. People who understand binary and people who don't.

[Wolf]

On a partly serious note- 10 is not completely arbitrary... When's the last time you counted your fingers?;)

[gruntguru]

I hate to say something partly serious here, but computers have no trouble dividing by 14.5939029, so there is no real need to complete the transition to the metric system. And speaking of which, ten is a completely arbitrary and poor basis for a numbering system. Why not something computer-friendly these days, like hexadecimal?

-munks

There are 10 types of people in this world. People who understand binary and people who don't.

Given the opportunity to start from scratch I would go with octal, being close to decimal and still computer friendly. Not sure how I would have gone doing 15 times tables at school. Pretty sure hexadecimal is only popular because it is the lowest 2^n greater than ten.

Can't use computers to do everything - mental calcs are much simpler and quicker in the metric system.

[Magoo]

The story behind the British, and their Empire/Commonwealth, driving on the left hand side of the road in right hand drive cars goes back a couple of centuries, where riders would ride on the left so that they could draw and fight with their swords if necessary.

What is the history behind driving on the right?

In America, traffic kept right to accommodate large freight wagons and coaches and their large teams, with the driver (typically right-handed) riding the left rear animal. Driving on the right wasn't totally codified into law across the country but it was an established matter of custom.

However, this didn't completely settle the LHD vs. RHD question for autos as in the early years, vehicles were manufactured either way with no clear winner. When in 1909 Henry Ford decided upon LHD for the Model T (previous Fords were RHD) the car's dominant position in the market clarified things considerably. Still, Pierce Arrow and a few others persisted with RHD until 1920, partly on the notion of placing the chauffeur at the curb side. Electric automobiles were typically configured to be driven from either seat, a novel feature.

[scolbourne]

I would standardise all times across countries and prefably across the whole world. It is a real pain trying to know when to contact someone when they give you a time but you do not know what timezone they use.

[Catalina Park]

In America, traffic kept right to accommodate large freight wagons and coaches and their large teams, with the driver (typically right-handed) riding the left rear animal. Driving on the right wasn't totally codified into law across the country but it was an established matter of custom.

The reason given for right hand drive was for the coach and wagon drivers to use the whip with his right hand, the reason for staying on the left side of the road was so he didn't snag his whip on the trees on the side of the road. It probably made sense once!

[MatsNorway]

I would standardise all times across countries and prefably across the whole world. It is a real pain trying to know when to contact someone when they give you a time but you do not know what timezone they use.

Thats a great idea. It will never happen but i like it a lot. My favorite idea so far.

[John Brundage]

I would like to see fuel fill cap locations standardised. Why can't they all be on either the right or left side?

[Bob Riebe]

I would standardise all times across countries and prefably across the whole world. It is a real pain trying to know when to contact someone when they give you a time but you do not know what timezone they use.

ROFL

Yeah and get rid of all those clocks that only go to twelve-- of cousrse make sure that thirteen is not on the new clock for those who are superstitious.

[Youichi]

I would like to see fuel fill cap locations standardised. Why can't they all be on either the right or left side?

This is a fine idea, you all standardize on the right, and I'll keep my car with one on the left, and every time I go to a petrol station they'll be no-one at my side of the pumps

More seriously, I think there is a greater percentage of cars on the UK roads with the filler on the right, most times when I see a queue at a petrol station its only right sided cars.

[gruntguru]

Both sides a-la Mini Cooper S.

[John Brundage]

This is a fine idea, you all standardize on the right, and I'll keep my car with one on the left, and every time I go to a petrol station they'll be no-one at my side of the pumps

More seriously, I think there is a greater percentage of cars on the UK roads with the filler on the right, most times when I see a queue at a petrol station its only right sided cars.

If they are one side, traffic flow at the pumps would be optimized. Cars going in one direction on the road would use one side of the island, and vice versa. This would cut down on cars facing each other at the island and all the other creative ways that drivers find to fuel their car without any regard for the fellow motorists.