70 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

Did Eric Brown include the Mitsubishi Zero in his assessments

[Wuzak]

Did Eric Brown include the Mitsubishi Zero in his assessments

Not sure, but the Zero was outclassed quite quickly.

[cdrewett]

Talking to Stu Goldspink who was flying the Hurricane at the Revival he told me that Camm deliberately designed the aeroplane to be unstable in order to increase its manoeverability. Apparently, in the early versions, if you closed the throttle it pitched up to the vertical in five seconds unless of course you took corrective action.
He said that with its wide undercarriage it is easier to land than a Spitfire but less tolerant of crosswinds, with a limit of about 15 knots.
Chris

[Allan Lupton]

Talking to Stu Goldspink who was flying the Hurricane at the Revival he told me that Camm deliberately designed the aeroplane to be unstable in order to increase its manoeverability. Apparently, in the early versions, if you closed the throttle it pitched up to the vertical in five seconds unless of course you took corrective action.
He said that with its wide undercarriage it is easier to land than a Spitfire but less tolerant of crosswinds, with a limit of about 15 knots.
Chris

Well all fighters were designed not to be too stable for manoeuvrability reasons, as you say. Pitch up of closing the throttle would be a little unusual as it implies a high thrust line which would also give nose-down pitch on opening the throttle and that's something to be avoided.
Cross-wind limits I can't comment on, but I can point out that Supermarine eventually used an inward-retracting wide undercarriage for the Spiteful.

[Doug Nye]

He said that with its wide undercarriage it is easier to land than a Spitfire but less tolerant of crosswinds, with a limit of about 15 knots.
Chris

Yes - if you look at the side-on view of the Hurricane the rear fuselage has considerable depth, giving it an effective keel area which a crosswind will gleefully grab so the aircraft tries to weather-cock round, nosing up into wind. In contrast, despite its narrow-track undercarriage the Spitfire's rear fuselage and fin presents a crosswind with rather less leverage.

Apparently on take off, when the engine's at full power and the propwash at its most energetic there's more than adequate directional control applied by the rudder. On landing, with the engine idling, main-wheel brakes liable to lock alternately on slippery grass, propwash minimal, and rudder command decreasing with speed, either design will evidently keep the driver wide awake!

What have I missed...

Ooh - and if this stuff interests you, don't miss this: http://www.pprune.or...uito-ka114.html

Hats off to the Kiwis (again). These tiny little GoPro HD video cameras are just wonderful.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 01 November 2012 - 19:43.

[JtP1]

Although not disputing this for a minute, I find it difficult to reconcile with the Hurricane's in period reputation for being easier to repair when battle damaged. Is it a case of the difference between a fully equipped facility and an advance base in France, North Africa, Burma or wherever with limited tooling?

The difference is between fitting a metal patch over a piece of linen doped on to fix a bullet hole which was already a std maintainance technique over the gun ports (even on a Spitfire). No 200mph (tank) tape in these days.

Apparently the lack of surviving Hurricanes is down to the internal rusting of the steel tube structure.

[Macca]

Did Eric Brown include the Mitsubishi Zero in his assessments

Yes; he said it was incredibly lightly-built, with no armour or self-sealing tanks. Its large wing area gave it a very low wing loading, hence its legendary manouverability and climb-rate, but it was poor in the dive; so Allied pilots were instructed accordingly on how best to fight the Zero.

It also had large fuel tanks, and when fully fuelled had a marginal stability but by using fuel from specific tanks in the early part of a flight (and running the engine very lean) it could achieve great range and then have an acceptable CoG for manouvers when it arrived in the combat zone.

It was extremely vulnerable to damage; a few hits would set it alight, kill the pilot or cause the structure to fail under stress.

Eric Brown also noted that when climbing he heard a repeated "oil drum" noise as the thin metal skin of the Zero flexed.


Paul M

[La Sarthe]

Apparently the lack of surviving Hurricanes is down to the internal rusting of the steel tube structure.

The company I work for provides design advice to the BBMF in lieu of Hawker (who aren't around) and BAE Systems (who aren't interested and don't have any records). One of their Hurricanes has been having a major service/restoration at Duxford recently and one of the main problems they've had, as you say, is corrosion in and on the steel tubes. The rear fuselage seems to be worst affected but other areas have also been hit. By various bits of analysis and reference to the original type record we've managed to provide guidelines as to which can be left alone, which need to be repaired and which have to be replaced. It's a real privilege to 'do our bit' to keep these aircraft flying.

[cdrewett]

Ooh - and if this stuff interests you, don't miss this: http://www.pprune.or...uito-ka114.html

Hats off to the Kiwis (again). These tiny little GoPro HD video cameras are just wonderful.

DCN

Doug
marvellous mosquito video. Was that the stall warner regularly sounding off or some other warning?
Chris

[Dipster]

Doug
marvellous mosquito video. Was that the stall warner regularly sounding off or some other warning?
Chris

That question is asked on the site. Thought to be a warning when the pilot reduces the throttle setting with the landing gear is up.

[Wuzak]

The difference is between fitting a metal patch over a piece of linen doped on to fix a bullet hole which was already a std maintainance technique over the gun ports (even on a Spitfire). No 200mph (tank) tape in these days.

Apparently the lack of surviving Hurricanes is down to the internal rusting of the steel tube structure.

The leading edges of early Spitfires and Hurricanes were painted yellow, and the gun ports taped over to stop dirt, etc, from getting into the guns on the ground.

When Mosquitoes started flying missions over enemy territory the leading edges of their wings were painted yellow too, a ruse to convince the Germans that they were armed, even though they were not.

[Glengavel]

The leading edges of early Spitfires and Hurricanes were painted yellow, and the gun ports taped over to stop dirt, etc, from getting into the guns on the ground.

When Mosquitoes started flying missions over enemy territory the leading edges of their wings were painted yellow too, a ruse to convince the Germans that they were armed, even though they were not.

Why the yellow paint in the first place though?

[kayemod]

When Mosquitoes started flying missions over enemy territory the leading edges of their wings were painted yellow too, a ruse to convince the Germans that they were armed, even though they were not.

This seems rather odd reasoning, the vaguely similar BF 110 only ever carried fuselage-mounted armament, so why would the Germans think that the Mosquito would have guns in the wings?

[JtP1]

Why the yellow paint in the first place though?

Was the theory not that ground personel would notice the wing and not walk into it, just like the yellow tips on the prop?

[Wuzak]

This seems rather odd reasoning, the vaguely similar BF 110 only ever carried fuselage-mounted armament, so why would the Germans think that the Mosquito would have guns in the wings?

Mosquito had glazed nose (PR and bombers).

The Beaufighter had 4 20mm cannon in the fuselage, plus 4 0.303" mgs in the starboard wing and 2 in the port wing.

[Doug Nye]

Hurricane fans might perhaps be interested to view this:

http://www.bonhams.com/video/11836/

Price estimate is only £1.4-£1.7-million. Perhaps we might club together...to buy a catalogue?

DCN

[Gary C]

Lovely stuff! Do I spy Weg's work?

[Doug Nye]

But of course Gary - and the rough cut was even better, but we couldn't get affordable clearance on the music track... 'White Cliffs of Dover', of course. I love the way the apparently undamped tailwheel makes the tail bounce as she taxies off the grass verge onto the Duxford taxiway. Lovely thing. I used to adore helping bring a steam traction engine to life, or a steam railway loco as the firebox begins to heat up, and the boiler starts to gulp and bubble and the whole mechanical structure of the thing starts to stir and awake. Similar thing with aircraft like this, the starting procedure is just such a creative act. What was once all quiet and still, mere potential, is suddenly vibrant, pulsing, muscular...

....'Scuse me, I'll get me greasy mac.

DCN

[arttidesco]

Hurricane fans might perhaps be interested to view this:



Price estimate is only £1.4-£1.7-million. Perhaps we might club together...to buy a catalogue?

DCN

I've just opened a tin to find a 1 punt note, what chance of negotiating a 249% discount for paying cash Irish ?

[Doug Nye]

I've just opened a tin to find a 1 punt note, what chance of negotiating a 249% discount for paying cash Irish ?

As Leston used to put it - "two 'opes son - no 'ope, and Bob 'ope...".

DCN

[arttidesco]

As Leston used to put it - "two 'opes son - no 'ope, and Bob 'ope...".

DCN

I'll stick to plan A, ploughing through Vol 1 of the BRM Saga on Dec 3rd then