519 replies to this topic

[Creepy]

Being creepy doesn't mean you have to be a grouch that can't take a joke.

So the fact that (you feel) Webber is no benchmark, is reason for you to conclude that the Red Bull must be superior.
And at the same time, the fact that Massa is no benchmark, gives Alonso the right to claim his car is a HRT?

Afaik Alonso never has said his car is an HRT. Not even a bad car, just that needed improvements.

[Creepy]

Let us look at it this way. When the differences between the cars were minimal Hamilton and Alonso were beating Vettel, regularly I might add. Now in the last 3 or 4 races when Newey has got **** together he cannot be touched.

Now I agree that Vettel to a large extent was getting the maximum out of the car over the last few years but where was that when Webber was whipping him earlier?

You can't blame the 2 drivers for crediting Newey just like you can't blame Vettel for being the one driving the car.

[Zava]

You've also got to remember that Newey designed the car that took Raikkonen and McLaren to No.2 in the WDC and WCC in 2005. Above Schumacher, who had just won 5 championships in a row.

If you compare that to 2006 without Newey, you get Raikkonen down in 5th, Montoya in 8th and De La Rosa in 11th, with McLaren slipping to third in the WCC and 90 points adrift of Ferrari. Shows how much a Newey influence can have.

not sure if you're making fun of some people making bad arguments, or just making bad arguments. if the first, then good attempt , if the second, then surely you must remember the mp4-19 as well, which took Raikkönen and mclaren to 7th and 5th in the WDC and WCC. or the mp4-18 which wasn't even raced...
2006 had more to do with the merc v8, which wasn't doing great until the RPM limit came in in 2007, the chassis itself was great (and was designed by Newey as well, as he left in the 2005/6 offseason, cars get designed before that), as seen in 2007 (great resemblance of the mp4-21, and Hamilton just said that even his WDC winning mp4-23 was "based on Newey")

[MrPodium]

I was making the point that 10 years without winning proves what Skinnyguy said about Newey=success.

Which was that Newey's influence in a winning team was far from obvious, which is absurd.

Ferrari2183 sums the situation up perfectly.

Edited by MrPodium, 31 October 2012 - 20:57.

[Ferrari2183]

So it is Newey against Lowe and Fry then...

Very much so and always has been coupled with the drivers.

I was making the point that 10 years without winning proves what Skinnyguy said about Newey=success.

And in that 10 years another genius was designing dominant cars. In the last 20 years only 3 championships have been won in cars that had no influence from Byrne and Newey.

How do you like them apples? Pretty impressive stuff really.

Edit: 3 not 2 championships.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 31 October 2012 - 21:19.

[Lights]

I am with you that the top speed in S2 should be on the longer straight in between turn 7 and 8, and not on the following shorter straight in between turn 9 and 11. That longer straight is where the speed trap is located, where you would normally get the top speed.

However, the note on en.mclarenf-1 stated that "The table shows the maximum speed on the sectors". It did not indicate the location that the speed was measured other than it is the maximum speed achieved in that sector. It is a fair assumption that the speed shown on that website was clocked at the speed trap.

Sorry but no, it is measured on the S2 line. Because else there is no way the highest speed reached in S3 would be 220 km/h, as they reach speeds above 250km/h on two occasions in it. So all the numbers say is that at the point Alonso could get closest to Petrov, on the S2 line, he still only got a few km/h up Petrov while slipstreaming up closely. Nothing can be done with that, the Renault simply had the highest topspeed of the field and no DRS existed.

[Skinnyguy]

Which was that Newey's influence in a winning team was far from obvious, which is absurd.

You need some reading lessons.

My point was that Lewis/Fernando implying Newey being a guarantee of success is wrong. So firs be sure what´s been said, then answer.

[Ferrari2183]

You need some reading lessons.

My point was that Lewis/Fernando implying Newey being a guarantee of success is wrong. So firs be sure what´s been said, then answer.

No. They did not imply that Newey is a guarantee for success. How did you deduce that?

[MrPodium]

Also they´re acting as if Newey=success, which is also far from obvious as they have seen in the past.

My reading is fine, thank you.

Williams + Newey = success.
McLaren + Newey = success.
Red Bull + Newey = success.

What's not obvious about that?

[Skinnyguy]

My reading is fine, thank you.

Williams + Newey = success.
McLaren + Newey = success.
Red Bull + Newey = success.

What's not obvious about that?

If you really need someone to point out what´s wrong there, you need lessons on other subjects too.

[MrPodium]

If you really need someone to point out what´s wrong there, you need lessons on other subjects too.

I'll just stick to my opinion. Which concurs with many, many others.

[mnmracer]

How impressive did Fernando look finishing 9th in China, 7th in Bahrain or 5th in Hungary?
How impressive did Lewis look not capitalizing on his car early advantage until the 7th race? How impressive did Lewis look finishing adjusted 5th in Bahrain (adjusting for his pit stop), 5th in Monaco or 8th in Britain?

Did Vettel really look less impressive challenging for 3rd in Malaysia, clawing back to 6th in Barcelona, finishing 4th in Hungary or finishing 2nd in Belgium?

It's pretty sad I have to repeat this so often because people choose to ignore the facts and make up their own version of history.

[apoka]

Vettel had one of the best races of the season in Spa, going from something like P14 after the start to P2. He then wrestled a not really competitive car to what would have been P5 in Monza. In the last 4 races, he drove very well and won all of them. It's odd that his achievements are belittled now, whereas earlier in the season quite a few posters (and not just Vettel fans who are not the majority in this board anyways) wrote in the Vettel thread that they are now convinced that Vettel can also fight when the car is not the best. Surely 4 race wins in a row should not make his season worse?

Those who keep repeating that Vettel wasn't good in the first half of the season should keep in mind that Valencia and his two other retirements had a huge influence on the WDC table and also on his points relative to Alonso and Webber. He struggled in qualy initially relative to Webber, but in the races he was always very good.

Edit: I don't want to make any judgement on whether Hamilton or Alonso are better or worse than Vettel this season. I'm just a bit annoyed by those posters who think he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence, is not on the same level etc. It's the same for those who think Alonso should be replaced if he continues not to win titles for Ferrari or that Hamilton has underachieved in 2012, because McLaren was the best car. The differences between the performance of those three this year are not significant enough to take such an extreme point of view - at least in my opinion.

Edited by apoka, 31 October 2012 - 22:14.

[Kvothe]

How impressive did Fernando look finishing 9th in China, 7th in Bahrain or 5th in Hungary?
How impressive did Lewis look not capitalizing on his car early advantage until the 7th race? How impressive did Lewis look finishing adjusted 5th in Bahrain (adjusting for his pit stop), 5th in Monaco or 8th in Britain?

Did Vettel really look less impressive challenging for 3rd in Malaysia, clawing back to 6th in Barcelona, finishing 4th in Hungary or finishing 2nd in Belgium?

It's pretty sad I have to repeat this so often because people choose to ignore the facts and make up their own version of history.

Your point would be a lot more persuasive if you didn't ignore McLaren's role in him not capitalizing, implying it was down to him, and by ignoring the fact that in the first seven races McLaren only put it on pole twice (technically thrice) while Red Bull scored 3 pole positions, and Mercedes scored one.

Edited by Kvothe, 31 October 2012 - 22:02.

[Ferrari2183]

How impressive did Fernando look finishing 9th in China, 7th in Bahrain or 5th in Hungary?
How impressive did Lewis look not capitalizing on his car early advantage until the 7th race? How impressive did Lewis look finishing adjusted 5th in Bahrain (adjusting for his pit stop), 5th in Monaco or 8th in Britain?

Did Vettel really look less impressive challenging for 3rd in Malaysia, clawing back to 6th in Barcelona, finishing 4th in Hungary or finishing 2nd in Belgium?

It's pretty sad I have to repeat this so often because people choose to ignore the facts and make up their own version of history.

Lol. This has been replied to already... What is it now? 3rd, 4th time you ask this.

[rijole1]

They would never find the time, they're far to busy kissing each others.

Imo Fernando and Lewis have the 2 most fragile egos on the grid.

Indeed, agree with you totally.
All this trying to crusch Vettels confidence is just so
Bad for them that Seb is too smart to fall in their mindgames-trap

[mnmracer]

Lol. This has been replied to already... What is it now? 3rd, 4th time you ask this.

It's been replied to with what comes down to "well, because one standard is applied to Vettel, and a double standard is applied to Alonso and Hamilton."
No one has had the guts to answer it without descending to double standards.

[toroRosso]

Let's not kid ourselves. Vettel and RBR are winning the season. Not RBR + driver. You have one of the most equal driven (yes i know a crazy M.Webber fan doesn't agree, that's why you're truthfully out of your mind) teams with Webber being a corner and track specialist scoring p4 at the moment and pretty much out of the running.

If Vettel scores p2 and lesser positions earlier and then goes for a streak when the car is capable then isn't the proof in the pudding that he infact extracted the max out of the car all season. What else was he supposed to be doing exactly? Not be pissed when the car breaks down potentially giving the slower car+driver combo the title? I'm not claiming for smooth behavior in those situations because I know the guy and how he operates to win.

[Ferrari2183]

It's been replied to with what comes down to "well, because one standard is applied to Vettel, and a double standard is applied to Alonso and Hamilton."
No one has had the guts to answer it without descending to double standards.

I replied to your post. What double standard did I employ?

As far as Vettel is concerned do really think that starting 6th and finishing 6th in Spain is something to write home about? Quite similar to Alonso's Bahrain performance - Bland. Same with Malaysia, he qualified 6th and started 5th due to Raikkonen taking a gearbox penalty and was in 4th when he tangled with Karthikeyan.

4th in Hungary after starting 3rd... This race was particularly special for him due to his constant moaning. "Please guys, do something... I'm much faster." Gave his tyres a real workout and nearly lost 4th to Alonso due to a late stop.

Belgium was quite a stunning drive -

What is pretty sad is that you can't see that Vettel's performances improved exponentially as the car improved and the last 4 races is proof of that. I await your reply.

[Ferrari2183]

Let's not kid ourselves. Vettel and RBR are winning the season. Not RBR + driver. You have one of the most equal driven (yes i know a crazy M.Webber fan doesn't agree, that's why you're truthfully out of your mind) teams with Webber being a corner and track specialist scoring p4 at the moment and pretty much out of the running.

If Vettel scores p2 and lesser positions earlier and then goes for a streak when the car is capable then isn't the proof in the pudding that he infact extracted the max out of the car all season. What else was he supposed to be doing exactly? Not be pissed when the car breaks down potentially giving the slower car+driver combo the title? I'm not claiming for smooth behavior in those situations because I know the guy and how he operates to win.

Thank you.

[mnmracer]

I replied to your post. What double standard did I employ?

As far as Vettel is concerned do really think that starting 6th and finishing 6th in Spain is something to write home about? Quite similar to Alonso's Bahrain performance - Bland. Same with Malaysia, he qualified 6th and started 5th due to Raikkonen taking a gearbox penalty and was in 4th when he tangled with Karthikeyan.

4th in Hungary after starting 3rd... This race was particularly special for him due to his constant moaning. "Please guys, do something... I'm much faster." Gave his tyres a real workout and nearly lost 4th to Alonso due to a late stop.

Belgium was quite a stunning drive -

What is pretty sad is that you can't see that Vettel's performances improved exponentially as the car improved and the last 4 races is proof of that. I await your reply.

Had you confused with someone else.

Anyway, so basically you agree with me, that both drivers have had races where they were unable to fight for the front with a slower car.
Not sure why the need to keep arguing then...

[repete]

I replied to your post. What double standard did I employ?

As far as Vettel is concerned do really think that starting 6th and finishing 6th in Spain is something to write home about? Quite similar to Alonso's Bahrain performance - Bland. Same with Malaysia, he qualified 6th and started 5th due to Raikkonen taking a gearbox penalty and was in 4th when he tangled with Karthikeyan.

4th in Hungary after starting 3rd... This race was particularly special for him due to his constant moaning. "Please guys, do something... I'm much faster." Gave his tyres a real workout and nearly lost 4th to Alonso due to a late stop.

Belgium was quite a stunning drive -

What is pretty sad is that you can't see that Vettel's performances improved exponentially as the car improved and the last 4 races is proof of that. I await your reply.

What would be sad is if vettel's performance didnt improve as the car improved.

[FigJam]

I don't know if Alonso and Hamilton are jealous of Vettel. Annoyed maybe...knowing they were both set to dominate F1 for years until Red Bull hit the jackpot performance wise.

Thing is...even if Vettel wins another championship...Alonso will still be regarded the greatest, most complete driver of this current generation. Whilst Hamilton will still be the biggest name driver on the grid and arguably the outright fastest, most exciting racer to watch.

In view of the fans, championships are never the be all. Vettel is unquestionably a great driver but, lets be brutal, he's no true global superstar. Alot now will depend on Hamiltons move to Mercedes and what happens there...and whether Ferrari can ever really get it together for Fernando to blow everyone away.

[Skinnyguy]

Thing is...even if Vettel wins another championship...Alonso will still be regarded BY ME as the greatest, most complete driver of this current generation. Whilst Hamilton will still be FOR ME the biggest name driver on the grid and arguably the outright fastest, most exciting racer to watch.

Fixed it for you.

[FigJam]

Of course its my opinion...this is a forum after all. Yet its one thing to have an opinion...and another to have your head in the sand.

However unlike yourself, I tend to take notice of trends outside my own head. Maybe take a look around?

There is always a general consensus with everything and anything in this world. Doesn't necessarily make it right....but general consensus it is.

[fabr68]

Personally I think its poor form both of them that they don't recognize Vettel's achievements. I don't think they envy his driving skills as you say, but in my view, it is the other way around, i.e. - the reason why they feel superior can certainly be because of envy/jealousy of his achievements, and the possibility that he might be a 3 time WDC soon. I don't think they would feel this way if Vettel hadn't achieved so much.

Anyway lot of people say that Vettel can only win in the best car, but as Martin Brundle mentioned today on Sky TV, the RBR wasn't necessarily a dominant car in 2010, and yet Vettel was able to win the title. I think he deserves some respect - that is all.

I dont understand the expectation from some Vettel fans for Alonso and Hamilton to drop on their knees and bow to him while tossing rose petals . After all wasnt Vettel himself saying that the Ferrari car was great when Alonso won and every weekend Hamilton looked competitive Vettel would say the Mclaren cars would be the ones to beat?

Sorry but it is not Alonso or Hamilton job to kiss Vettels ass just because their fans wants them to.

[whitevisor]

Let's not kid ourselves. Vettel and RBR are winning the season. Not RBR + driver. You have one of the most equal driven (yes i know a crazy M.Webber fan doesn't agree, that's why you're truthfully out of your mind) teams with Webber being a corner and track specialist scoring p4 at the moment and pretty much out of the running.

If Vettel scores p2 and lesser positions earlier and then goes for a streak when the car is capable then isn't the proof in the pudding that he infact extracted the max out of the car all season. What else was he supposed to be doing exactly? Not be pissed when the car breaks down potentially giving the slower car+driver combo the title? I'm not claiming for smooth behavior in those situations because I know the guy and how he operates to win.

If Vettel wasn't there, Mark or any other decent driver would have done the same or similar... Lord knows what Alonso would have done it!

[toroRosso]

Lord knows what Alonso would have done it!

Alonso might have driven the same results than Vettel. Maybe not, who knows how he can drive corners in a RBR or how he can manage his tyres in RBR. Whether or not that's not what F1 is about. Narain Karthikeyan might have been a champion for Ferrari 00-04. Please don't reply with something like that, do us a favor. I thought I'm out of youtube here.

I do think alot of Vettels performance has to do with his car and his car performance to do with Vettel. That's all there is, there's no ultimate truth here that someone has right now. Perception of Vettel would change if his car was faster in race and straights than in qualifying. He would then "outperform" his car by reaching p1. This is ofcourse an illusion. There's one real factor and that is driving a car(which all have different characteristics and sometimes are built around a driver) as fast as it goes and quite clearly Vettel has done so.

As mentioned before I too think Alonso Hamilton are just trying to find excuses and downplay Vettel and possibly some of their fans just don't get Formula 1 and buy everything they say. The latter is more saddening.

Edited by toroRosso, 01 November 2012 - 02:30.

[Creepy]

Hmm... the way I have understood it it's definitely not about bowing down to Vettel and praising his greatness - far from it.

It's about giving some credit to Vettel instead of diminishing him as a driver just because 'he is driving in a superior car', implying that anyone could do that. Just credit, that's what I think he deserves.

We are afterall talking about a driver who during his rookie season won Monza GP in a Toro Rosso. A Toro Rosso! I think it was pretty spectacular when he did it.

Furthermore there is another thing; if Vettel wins the WDC, then he is 3 times WDC. I can well understand that it's a thorn in the flesh.

Who remembers the year when McLaren looked to be very strong in the beginning of season?

Bernie Ecclestone stated that the system might have to be changed in order to give some leverage to other teams. It was during Häkkinen-Coulthard -times.

Not a peep from him when Ferrari absolutely dominated the field year after year. Hence I think that it's completely fair to recognize that Vettel just seems to get the best out of the RBR considering how he had to fight himself up during this season. It hasn't been a walk in the park for RBR like last year was.

His win was nice but his Toro Rosso, his Toro Rosso! was capable of a win that day. Remember that Bourdais qualified 4th... It is not that he won with a today's Toro Rosso or something.

But I agree with your point that Vettel deserves credit. But one can't deny that his car is helping him greatly. Not to the stent of last year but it's doing that too. 4 consecutive wins...

Edited by Creepy, 01 November 2012 - 02:31.

[apoka]

I dont understand the expectation from some Vettel fans for Alonso and Hamilton to drop on their knees and bow to him while tossing rose petals . After all wasnt Vettel himself saying that the Ferrari car was great when Alonso won and every weekend Hamilton looked competitive Vettel would say the Mclaren cars would be the ones to beat?

Sorry but it is not Alonso or Hamilton job to kiss Vettels ass just because their fans wants them to.

I think you are exaggerating. Alonso said that he considers Hamilton as better than Vettel, because he won in worse cars. Now, he says that he has to fight not just Vettel, but also Newey. Hamilton said that he wants Alonso to win the title, because he is the best driver this season. It's not like they praise Vettel all the time and we expect them to praise him even more.

[mnmracer]

Of course its my opinion...this is a forum after all. Yet its one thing to have an opinion...and another to have your head in the sand.

However unlike yourself, I tend to take notice of trends outside my own head. Maybe take a look around?

There is always a general consensus with everything and anything in this world. Doesn't necessarily make it right....but general consensus it is.

The world has 2.1 billion people who are convinced that Christianity is the true religion.
The world has 1.5 billion people who are convinced that Islam is the true religion.
The world has 0.5 - 1 billion people who are convinced that there is no God.

Now, regardless of what ends up being true, in the statistically best case scenario, 70% of all people in the world are convinced and dedicate their life to something that is simply wrong. Numbers mean nothing in whether something's correct or not.

[decoder]

The world has 2.1 billion people who are convinced that Christianity is the true religion.
The world has 1.5 billion people who are convinced that Islam is the true religion.
The world has 0.5 - 1 billion people who are convinced that there is no God.

Now, regardless of what ends up being true, in the statistically best case scenario, 70% of all people in the world are convinced and dedicate their life to something that is simply wrong. Numbers mean nothing in whether something's correct or not.

Those opinions are based on nothing though, while in a competitive sport we have a number of measures to qualify opinions, so opinions are not always equal.

[mnmracer]

His win was nice but his Toro Rosso, his Toro Rosso! was capable of a win that day. Remember that Bourdais qualified 4th... It is not that he won with a today's Toro Rosso or something.

Bourdais qualified fourth on a wet set-up. Vettel qualified pole, 1 second faster, on a dry set-up, in wet conditions.

But I agree with your point that Vettel deserves credit. But one can't deny that his car is helping him greatly. Not to the stent of last year but it's doing that too. 4 consecutive wins...

Peope have to stop with the buts. That's the (only) thing that gets people annoyed.
I don't hear you saying "Alonso has driven great this year but he was greatly helped by a bullet-proof Ferrari".
If you want buts, apply it to both.

Alonso has driven great this year.
Vettel has driven great this year.

[mnmracer]

Those opinions are based on nothing though, while in a competitive sport we have a number of measures to qualify opinions, so opinions are not always equal.

We were talking about FigJam's idea of 'general consensus', which is not the general consensus when you rate the opinions.

[Wolfie]

Those opinions are based on nothing though, while in a competitive sport we have a number of measures to qualify opinions, so opinions are not always equal.

I would say that many opinions in a competitive sport are usually originally based upon personal opinions, some words are thrown around year after year no matter how much truth there is in them.

Hence it's misleading to say that one opinion is a fact. IMO.

Edited by Wolfie, 01 November 2012 - 09:30.

[Wolfie]

His win was nice but his Toro Rosso, his Toro Rosso! was capable of a win that day. Remember that Bourdais qualified 4th... It is not that he won with a today's Toro Rosso or something.

But I agree with your point that Vettel deserves credit. But one can't deny that his car is helping him greatly. Not to the stent of last year but it's doing that too. 4 consecutive wins...

Yes I remember, only it wasn't Bourdais who won the race

But it all could be so simple by just giving Vettel the credit he deserves without the car being brought in, since it sort of invalidates Vettel's performances everytime it's mentioned in the same sentence.

There's another perspective also; Alonso has not been suffering from any teammate wars. One might ask just how much leverage that has given

So why not just give Seb the credit he deserves without any invalidations? That way they all three can be top drivers worthy of their titles. Period.

[Kvothe]

Bourdais qualified fourth on a wet set-up. Vettel qualified pole, 1 second faster, on a dry set-up, in wet conditions.


Peope have to stop with the buts. That's the (only) thing that gets people annoyed.
I don't hear you saying "Alonso has driven great this year but he was greatly helped by a bullet-proof Ferrari".
If you want buts, apply it to both.

Alonso has driven great this year.
Vettel has driven great this year.

Vettel was also on a full wet-setup, I believe Torro Rosso were the only cars on one.

[joshb]

Vettel was also on a full wet-setup, I believe Torro Rosso were the only cars on one.

I'm sure in the post race presser, when asked why they were 10kph faster on the straights, he said "we thought it would be dry today so we stick to the dry level"

[GotYoubyTheBalls]

Hamilton can be jealous all he wants, simple fact is that given Hamilton and Vettels respective talents, Hamilton just wouldnt have delivered the championships in the Red Bull that Vettel has. Alonso yes but Hamilton no.

[Ferrari2183]

I think you are exaggerating. Alonso said that he considers Hamilton as better than Vettel, because he won in worse cars. Now, he says that he has to fight not just Vettel, but also Newey. Hamilton said that he wants Alonso to win the title, because he is the best driver this season. It's not like they praise Vettel all the time and we expect them to praise him even more.

So what if they said it? I also believe Hamilton is better than Vettel and I also believe that Alonso has been the best driver this season.

It is starting to sound more and more like Vettel fans are simply butt hurt that either driver doesn't consider Vettel the benchmark.

[decoder]

Hamilton can be jealous all he wants, simple fact is that given Hamilton and Vettels respective talents, Hamilton just wouldnt have delivered the championships in the Red Bull that Vettel has. Alonso yes but Hamilton no.

What are their respective talents exactly? Hamilton proved himself against Alonso, and Vettel? Mark Webber..lol

[Kvothe]

I'm sure in the post race presser, when asked why they were 10kph faster on the straights, he said "we thought it would be dry today so we stick to the dry level"

I don't know, I haven't been able to find any concrete information either way, with some blogs, and comments on various articles reiterating the point I made, while others back up what you say without any evidence.

I think its important to note as well, the the Red Bull Chassis, that Torro Rosso had at that point of the season qualified 3rd in Webber's hands, meaning that they were essentially 1, 3, and 4 which inplies some sort of advantage in the wet.

Edited by Kvothe, 01 November 2012 - 11:08.

[plumtree]

Vettel had one of the best races of the season in Spa, going from something like P14 after the start to P2. He then wrestled a not really competitive car to what would have been P5 in Monza. In the last 4 races, he drove very well and won all of them. It's odd that his achievements are belittled now, whereas earlier in the season quite a few posters (and not just Vettel fans who are not the majority in this board anyways) wrote in the Vettel thread that they are now convinced that Vettel can also fight when the car is not the best. Surely 4 race wins in a row should not make his season worse?

Those who keep repeating that Vettel wasn't good in the first half of the season should keep in mind that Valencia and his two other retirements had a huge influence on the WDC table and also on his points relative to Alonso and Webber. He struggled in qualy initially relative to Webber, but in the races he was always very good.

Edit: I don't want to make any judgement on whether Hamilton or Alonso are better or worse than Vettel this season. I'm just a bit annoyed by those posters who think he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence, is not on the same level etc. It's the same for those who think Alonso should be replaced if he continues not to win titles for Ferrari or that Hamilton has underachieved in 2012, because McLaren was the best car. The differences between the performance of those three this year are not significant enough to take such an extreme point of view - at least in my opinion.

Exactly what I thought. Why the sudden change of tune?

I don't know, I haven't been able to find any concrete information either way, with some blogs, and comments on various articles reiterating the point I made, while others back up what you say without any evidence.

I think its important to note as well, the the Red Bull Chassis, that Torro Rosso had at that point of the season qualified 3rd in Webber's hands, meaning that they were essentially 1, 3, and 4 which inplies some sort of advantage in the wet.

http://www.formula1....008/9/8387.html

Q: Talk us through your race and being so much quicker in the speed trap.
SV: Well, for the speed trap I think there is an explanation. We didn't go for a more downforce configuration, thinking it might be dry today, so we stuck to the dry level and didn't touch it, so on the straight lines we were bloody fast compared to all the others.

... As I said yesterday, when you're a bit smarter and looking at the speed traps, we didn't set the car up for rain conditions. I was thinking that today was going to be a dry race. Obviously it was not, especially at the beginning. We were on a usual dry set-up to be honest.

(I remember Berger confirmed that in an TV interview on Saturday.)


http://www.redbull.c...021242903768334

GIORGIO ASCANELLI: ... I was really happy to get that first win for the Red Bull group, and I was absolutely over the moon for Sebastian. In fact it was all Sebastian. It wasn’t us that won the race, all we did was give him a reliable car which he drove masterfully. I reckon he’s still the fastest driver today in the wet. I remember when we were doing strategy on the Saturday afternoon, assuming the race would be dry. I told him that he couldn’t stay in front but he could aim for third place – but the important point was not to waste his time fighting Felipe Massa’s Ferrari which would be coming past like a rocket. I told him that if he wasted time trying to fight, he wouldn’t finish on the podium. After a couple of hours going over the various scenarios, Seb asked me, “What if it rains?” I told him “Congratulations!”

(I don't necessarily agree about 'it was all Sebastian', just like you can't attribute any win to a single person of a team.)

Edited by plumtree, 01 November 2012 - 11:48.

[Kvothe]

Thanks for the quote

[krea]

His win was nice but his Toro Rosso, his Toro Rosso! was capable of a win that day. Remember that Bourdais qualified 4th... It is not that he won with a today's Toro Rosso or something.

If you win a race it's obviously that the car was capable of a win... it's simple logic.

[Ferrari2183]

What's all this about Monza 2008? As if it is going to convince people that Vettel can win in relatively poor material. I have news for you... Even the sun shines on a dogs ass every now and then.

I can pick out quite a few drivers who have won wet races or put in magnificent performances when they really shouldn't have been close but the point I think Alonso, especially, is making is that prior to Newey's package revamp when things between the cars were close is that he was beating Vettel regularly and now that is distant memory.

[superuser]

But who the hell cares if they are jealous or not? Vettel must do his talking on the track and he's doing it quite successfully. I hope that he keep his head down and do what he does best - concentrate on his driving and on helping Red Bull to give him his 3rd title. Winning is all that matters!

[apoka]

So what if they said it? I also believe Hamilton is better than Vettel and I also believe that Alonso has been the best driver this season.

Many drivers believe they are the best. It's more about showing some respect for his achievements or, at least, not downplaying it. Basically the opposite of this:

What's all this about Monza 2008? As if it is going to convince people that Vettel can win in relatively poor material. I have news for you... Even the sun shines on a dogs ass every now and then.

[Ferrari2183]

Many drivers believe they are the best. It's more about showing some respect for his achievements or, at least, not downplaying it. Basically the opposite of this:

It is not about downplaying his achievements... Alonso said that he is fighting Vettel and Newey. How exactly is that disrespectful of his achievements?

Also, is Perez the next best thing because he had a stunning drive in Malaysia? As I've said, these anomalies happen. Excuse me for not kicking up a fuss about it...

Edited by Ferrari2183, 01 November 2012 - 12:31.

[swerved]

What's all this about Monza 2008? As if it is going to convince people that Vettel can win in relatively poor material. I have news for you... Even the sun shines on a dogs ass every now and then.

I can pick out quite a few drivers who have won wet races or put in magnificent performances when they really shouldn't have been close but the point I think Alonso, especially, is making is that prior to Newey's package revamp when things between the cars were close is that he was beating Vettel regularly and now that is distant memory.

Of course it does, what some have to realise though is that it doesn't emanate from the bottoms of either Fernando, or Lewis.