42 replies to this topic

[THead]

After Doug Ogden found this neat colorized photo of a Peugeot, it prompted us to put together a detailed post on The Old Motor about these fine cars. Below is one page of four from a detailed article in The Automobile dated Sept. 26, 1912. Below that is the first of two pages from The Automobile dated Feb. 12, 1914, telling and showing the updates made to the car and the engines. All can be seen on The Old Motor along with a neat film of the race.

[GMACKIE]

Certainly way ahead of its time.

[fredeuce]

Certainly way ahead of its time.

Or perhaps and alternate view would be how little things have changed : classic four valve, twin overhead cam, hemispherical combustion chamber, all 100 years ago ! Thank you Ernest Henry.

Edited by fredeuce, 05 November 2012 - 23:05.

[Michael Ferner]

Or perhaps and alternate view would be how little things have changed : classic four valve, twin overhead cam, hemispherical combustion chamber, all 100 years ago ! Thank you Ernest Henry.

Er, how are you going to achieve that with only two camshafts??

[D-Type]

Er, how are you going to achieve that with only two camshafts??

The same way as Ernest Henry did!

[Roger Clark]

The same way as Ernest Henry did!

I don't think he did.

Which car is in the original picture? My guess is the 1913 car, possibly the 3-litre, but I don't know. Was it really red?

[D-Type]

Now I'm totally confused.

The Peugeot L76 Grand prix car did have twin overhead camshafts, hemispherical combustion chambers and four valves per cylinder
The 3 litre Coupe de l'Auto car is usually described as having 'a similar design' of engine. Did it have only two valves per cylinder?

[David McKinney]

I think Michael F was drawing attention to fredeuce's description of the car having a four-valve engine, when the less pedantic of us instantly knew he meant four valves per cylinder

[D-Type]

Ah! Now I understand (I think). Both cars had engines with hemispherical combustion chambers, four cylinders, twin camshafts, and four valves per cylinder - hence the soubriquet "The first modern racing engine".

This contrasts with the other early car (was it a Lanchester?) that had one valve per cylinder that somehow functioned as both inlet and exhaust with a switch-over valve in the manifold.

[Allan Lupton]

I think Michael F was drawing attention to fredeuce's description of the car having a four-valve engine, when the less pedantic of us instantly knew he meant four valves per cylinder

As a fully paid-up pedant who is (or was) also an Engineer I would say it is (or at any rate was) normal to write about engine design characteristics as they apply to a cylinder, so a four-valve twin-cam can have any number of cylinders per bank and any number of banks as those aspects are referred to in other ways. I reach for my revolver when I see quad-cam engines referred to or the total number of valves when the number of cylinders is not stated, e.g. when modern car signwriting put 16V on the back of a modest four-cylinder car I had, but my SP250 Daimler had had 16 Valves 30 years before and so what?

[Roger Clark]

I don't think this is a matter of pedantry, but of whether the Peugeot engines had hemispherical combustion chambers, Borgeson wrote in "The Classic Twin-Cam Engine":

A feature which may have existed in the previous engines and was to mark subsequent Henry designs was a combustion chamber which was longer than it was wide, a point which can be appreciated by referring to the Ballot engine drawings. The bulge at each end of the chamber not only permitted the use of larger valves but also permitted a broken valve from dropping into the cylinder, unless the stem should break very close to the valve head."

Indeed, I didn't think it was possible to arrange four valves in a hemispherical combustion chamber unless they were radially disposed like the BMW Apfelbeck engine.

However, I see that the extract from The Automobile included in the original post says that the Peugeot had hemispherical combustion chambers, so perhaps it's me that's confused.

[D-Type]

I suppose compared to a side valve engine the combustion chambers were very nearly hemispherical.

How were a vintage Riley's valves actuated as they are also often described as having "hemispherical" combustion chambers? Likewise the Chrysler "hemi"?

[Sebastian Tombs]

I suppose compared to a side valve engine the combustion chambers were very nearly hemispherical.

How were a vintage Riley's valves actuated as they are also often described as having "hemispherical" combustion chambers? Likewise the Chrysler "hemi"?

Vintage (and other) Rileys had two camshafts mounted relatively high in the block, each operating the valves via pushrods and rockers in the conventional way. The chrysler 'Hemi' had (has) a single camshaft in the 'V' operating pushrods actuating two sets of valves. Thus the heads have two rocker-SHAFTS, one for inlet, one for exhaust.

ST

[Lee Nicolle]

Is it my imagination but is the Offy engine a loose clone of this design?

[Michael Ferner]

Well, Sebastian has pointed out that with rocker arms and/or shafts, it actually IS possible to achieve hemispherical combustion chambers with "only" two camshafts, or indeed with only one. However, that would be a fraught design! The Chrysler Hemi, like every other "hemi" engine I have ever heard of, had only two valves per cylinder, though. And the Peugeot engine, as can be clearly seen in the illustration, did NOT have a hemispherical combustion chamber! Don't believe everything you read...

[Michael Ferner]

I don't think he did.

Which car is in the original picture? My guess is the 1913 car, possibly the 3-litre, but I don't know. Was it really red?

It is the 1913 GP model, mostly called "EX3", or "L56" for its engine size. And no, I don't think any of them were ever red, at least not as long as they were pretty original in specification!


EDIT: Looking at it again, I think it is a colourized photograph from Indianapolis, with Georges Boillot at the wheel. The Peugeot was most certainly blue, then.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 06 November 2012 - 21:50.

[Michael Ferner]

As a fully paid-up pedant who is (or was) also an Engineer I would say it is (or at any rate was) normal to write about engine design characteristics as they apply to a cylinder, so a four-valve twin-cam can have any number of cylinders per bank and any number of banks as those aspects are referred to in other ways. I reach for my revolver when I see quad-cam engines referred to or the total number of valves when the number of cylinders is not stated, e.g. when modern car signwriting put 16V on the back of a modest four-cylinder car I had, but my SP250 Daimler had had 16 Valves 30 years before and so what?

I fully agree with you, but pandora's box is well and truely open. When the first 4-valve Duesenberg was introduced in 1916, all the world was refering to it only as "the 16-valve Duesenberg", and it would only be confusing to call it differently today. Many other 4-valve 4-cylinders were named the same, if memory doesn't play tricks on me. Also, Ford's 1964 DOHC engine was almost immediately dubbed the "Quad Cam" engine, and is still revered as such. Old habits die hard...

[Roger Clark]

Thanks for that.

It's difficult to be sure but the car seems to have a different tail treatment from the 1913 Grand Prix. Was it modified for Indianapolis?

[fredeuce]

Just to clarify what others have already confirmed. Yes I am referring to the number of valves per cylinder.

Having grown up in the 60's I observed the introduction of the Cosworth FVA modified Ford 1600. Upon learing what that meant and having been in the motor trade for some years as a mechanic . It was common parlance to refer to engines construction in this manner. Hence the description I adopted.

As to whether this engine is a true hemispherical combustion chamber is a moot point. I was originally intending to describe it as a pent-roof chamber but since the text refers to a hemispherical chamber I deferred to that description. That said the grouping of the inlet valves and the exhaust suggest pent-roof and not a true hemispherical chamber.

And Lee, the reference to the Offy engine has some substance to it as Harry Miller repaired a damaged Peugeot back then. He went on to adopt the twin cam architecture with the range of engines he built in his career. The first Offy is infact a Miller design or perhaps more correctly a Leo Goosen design. He worked for Miller. When Miller folded.(Went bankrupt) Fred Offenhauser , head machinist picked up a few of his designs and started to manufacture his own engines. This is a very potted history of all of that.

Edited by fredeuce, 07 November 2012 - 01:11.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks for that.

It's difficult to be sure but the car seems to have a different tail treatment from the 1913 Grand Prix. Was it modified for Indianapolis?

I'm sure you're right. Actually, I'm so engrossed with Indy and US racing these days, the car looks perfectly normal to me!

[Michael Ferner]

And Lee, the reference to the Offy engine has some substance to it as Harry Miller repaired a damaged Peugeot back then. He went on to adopt the twin cam architecture with the range of engines he built in his career. The first Offy is infact a Miller design or perhaps more correctly a Leo Goosen design. He worked for Miller. When Miller folded.(Went bankrupt) Fred Offenhauser , head machinist picked up a few of his designs and started to manufacture his own engines. This is a very potted history of all of that.

And a good one at that!

Sorry for being a pedant, but a pent roof is not hemispherical, and sometimes a man has to stand up and fight...

[Allan Lupton]

Sorry for being a pedant, but a pent roof is not hemispherical, and sometimes a man has to stand up and fight...

Yes quite, and the use of four valves in parallel pairs gives the pent roof - as has been pointed out to get a hemispherical chamber with four valves they have to be arranged radially. Not uncommon in single cylinder (motorcycle) engines and reinvented for a multi-cylinder by Apfelbeck as noted above.

Oh and there are many, many examples of the two valves at 90 degrees in hemispherical heads being worked by push-rods and rockers: Riley as noted, Lea-Francis from the work of one of the same engineers and Talbot-Lago used two camshafts but post second War Peugeot and Armstrong-Siddeley used one with half the push-rods crossing the block between the bores. V-engines such as the Chrysler "hemi" and the Daimler V8s drove two banks from one camshaft.

[Roger Clark]

And BMW/Bristol?

[robert dick]

Concerning the modifications of the 5,6-litre Peugeots (1913 Amiens Grand Prix/1914 Indy 500), Motor Age wrote on 30 April 1914:
"The Peugeot drivers, Goux and Boillot, are using last year's cars with detailed modifications. The motor practically is unchanged. The chassis has been set several inches lower, the front as well as the rear springs being set below the axles. Houdaille shock absorbers are used both front and rear. To enable them to make their turns at a higher speed, the Peugeot men have filled the left hand frame member with lead. [...] An egg-shaped tail, with the gasoline tank carried inside it, has been fitted to both cars."

Peugeot used Pirellis in the 1913 Grand Prix and French Palmers in the 1914 Indianapolis.
After the victory of René Thomas in the 6,2-litre Delage, Motor Age wrote on 2 July 1914:
"Among the Peugeot partisans the claim is put forth that an inferior grade of tire was sold to Boillot and Goux, and that had they been given the same high quality as supplied to Thomas, one of the Peugeots would have won the race. The Palmer Tire Co. keeps out of the discussion, merely stating that the Delage men were supplied from the London stock and the two Peugeot men bought privately from the French factory, but that the English and French tires are identical. Certain tire experts explain the failure of the Peugeot men by defective fitting."

[Michael Ferner]

Yes quite, and the use of four valves in parallel pairs gives the pent roof - as has been pointed out to get a hemispherical chamber with four valves they have to be arranged radially. Not uncommon in single cylinder (motorcycle) engines and reinvented for a multi-cylinder by Apfelbeck as noted above.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. I can't claim to be an expert of (single cylinder) motorcycle engines, but I'd be surprised if there are many with such an arrangement (four valves and hemi head) due to the complicated valve action involved. Also, i think this would actually limit the size of the valves to a point were there is no real advantage to be gained, especially not given the additional complications in the valve gear.

The "Apfelbeck engine" did not have hemispherical combustion chambers, either. The "radial" valve arrangement refers to the placement of inlet and exhaust valves on each side of the pent-roof, also called "stagger valves", and pioneered by Fiat in the teens and Frontenac in the thirties. This arrangement has never really proved to be advantageous, for various reason, not the least of it being the doubling up of inlet and exhaust manifolding. A futile exercise in "theoretical engineering", at best.

[Roger Clark]

THe original Apfelbeck engine did have four valves in a hemispherical combustion chamber. Karl Ludvigsen says in Classic Racing engines:

"Apfelbeck's idea was to add two more inclined valves in a plane rotated 90deg to the first two valves, so that in plan view the vlave stems pointed to all four points of the compass".

This engine was used in 2-litre form by BMW in a Brabham single seater and a Lola sports-racer. THere were problems when they tried to produce a 1.6-litre version for 1967 formula 2 and the Lola cars of that year had a valve arrangement of the type described by Michael.

[Allan Lupton]

Rudge did it like this in 1931:

As you see the valves are not huge and are paired.
But it's all done with rockers and a couple of pushrods although later versions used an overhead camshaft.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 07 November 2012 - 12:47.

[Dutchy]

Allan, do correect me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware Rudge never built an OHC motor.

[THead]

Glad you folks are enjoying one of our favorite subjects at The Old Motor, the pre-war Peugeot.

The colorized photo we posted was either that or a colorized slide. Early slides here in the U.S. were called lantern slides. And yes red most likely was the color the artist picked.
It seems that most Peugeots that raced at Indy were painted blue.

Yes the photo was taken at Indy as you can see the same garages as seen in the photo w/Bob Burman there (above).

This photo of Burman and his Peugeot is one of the best surviving photos of a Peugeot @ Indy that we have seen yet. We also have three sectional enlargements of it.

Can anyone positively document the CAC round badge on the the hood? Was it from the Corona Auto Club or the Chicago Auto Club?

[Allan Lupton]

Allan, do correect me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware Rudge never built an OHC motor.

I can't say for sure as motorbike engines are unfamiliar ground, but I thought I remembered they did. Probably confused by thinking the push-rod tube was an o.h.c. drive.

[Michael Ferner]

Can anyone positively document the CAC round badge on the the hood? Was it from the Corona Auto Club or the Chicago Auto Club?

Chicago AC.

Thanks for the picture, it's really great!

[Michael Ferner]

Rudge did it like this in 1931:

As you see the valves are not huge and are paired.
But it's all done with rockers and a couple of pushrods although later versions used an overhead camshaft.

That's a nice and tidy arrangement, really well done, but it also illustrates my point: I wonder whether those four small valves offer a larger I/O area than two large ones would!

[Michael Ferner]

THe original Apfelbeck engine did have four valves in a hemispherical combustion chamber. Karl Ludvigsen says in Classic Racing engines:

"Apfelbeck's idea was to add two more inclined valves in a plane rotated 90deg to the first two valves, so that in plan view the vlave stems pointed to all four points of the compass".

This engine was used in 2-litre form by BMW in a Brabham single seater and a Lola sports-racer. THere were problems when they tried to produce a 1.6-litre version for 1967 formula 2 and the Lola cars of that year had a valve arrangement of the type described by Michael.

Thanks for that, I never knew (or had already forgotten...)!

Any links to a cutaway to see how it worked?

[Tim Murray]

THe original Apfelbeck engine did have four valves in a hemispherical combustion chamber. Karl Ludvigsen says in Classic Racing engines:

"Apfelbeck's idea was to add two more inclined valves in a plane rotated 90deg to the first two valves, so that in plan view the vlave stems pointed to all four points of the compass".

This engine was used in 2-litre form by BMW in a Brabham single seater and a Lola sports-racer. THere were problems when they tried to produce a 1.6-litre version for 1967 formula 2 and the Lola cars of that year had a valve arrangement of the type described by Michael.

My understanding, based originally on Ian Bamsey's potted history of BMW racing engines in The 1000 BHP Grand Prix Cars, and confirmed by the Road & Track article in the first link below, is that BMW did use the 'genuine' Apfelbeck head with hemispherical combustion chamber in their 1600cc F2 engines of 1967 and 1968. It wasn't until 1969, when they introduced the M12 engine, that they switched to the 'pentroof' chamber with one inlet and one exhaust valve on each side. They then switched to a conventional valve layout in mid-1970. Here's the Road & Track article:

http://s121.beta.pho...304918366080453

Any links to a cutaway to see how it worked?

Not a proper cutaway, but there are some informative sketches and photos here:

http://touringmm.blo...linderkopf.html

[Roger Clark]

I think you're right I thought that they had abandoned the radial head by 1967 but I can't find any evidence that this was so.

[robert dick]

Burman/Peugeot photo - CAC badge:

According to Motor Age/13 May 1915, page 22, "Burman's Reconstructed Peugeot":
"... After completing the rebuilding of the car the body was painted and the finishing touch was the emblem of the Chicago Automobile Club, which Burman always carries on the car as a mascot."

[Henri Greuter]

That's a nice and tidy arrangement, really well done, but it also illustrates my point: I wonder whether those four small valves offer a larger I/O area than two large ones would!

Depends on the valve angle. From what I recall, the cutt off point is about 80 or so degrees. Gerd Hack & Frits Indra published aout this in their book on F1 engiones that was published in the mid 80's.
When valve angles are larger then that point, two large valves give more valve area then four smaller ones.
The Mercedes W196 was `only` twovalve because of having a very large valve angle. But because of large valves having disadtvatages too merc gave it desmodrimic valve operation.


henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 08 November 2012 - 10:27.

[Marticelli]

That's a nice and tidy arrangement, really well done, but it also illustrates my point: I wonder whether those four small valves offer a larger I/O area than two large ones would!

Well, it was good enough to sweep the board at the 1930 Junior TT on the Isle of Man where the new radial 350cc Rudges came 1,2 and 3 straight from the drawing board... Can't think of another occasion when anyone did this... And just to reassure Allan Lupton, his memory is at fault in respect of OHC Rudges.... No such animal exists.

Marticelli

[Robert Rampton]

To Michael or Robert, regarding the Chicago Auto Club seal on the Burman Peugeot - Have either of you ever run across a clear image or graphic of that logo? I am thinking of doing a color plan-view of this car and I am very curious as to the colors of this seal and also if any other text appeared on it that is not visible in the posted photo.
Thanks.
Bob.

[Michael Ferner]

Somehow, I thought I knew it was blue, and this here seems to prove it:

http://i.ebayimg.com/10/!B,rdF,Q!W...lG-Sgcw~~_3.JPG

[Robert Rampton]

Mr. Ferner, thank you very much. I knew this would not take long!
Bob.

[D-Type]

Mr. Ferner, thank you very much. I knew this would not take long!
Bob.

How nice to see someone say "Thank You"

[THead]

Recently we were able to find and post an article from the Sept. 26, 1912, Automobile Magazine, titled “The World’s Greatest Racing Car”. Since then we have found the location of
many of the original photos of the 1912 engine, that were used in the magazine article. Because the DOHC Peugeot is such a famous and well known car, the photos have all been
posted on The Old Motor so you can study the interesting construction in detail, as these photos are much clearer.

The photos above and below show just how good they are, on The Old Motor we have 11 more that you are sure if find of interest.

Edited by THead, 12 December 2012 - 23:49.