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Making Electric Vehicles work!


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#1051 Wuzak

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 12:48

 Perhaps some people will never own a new car.

 

Isn't that already the case in large cities like New York?



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#1052 Greg Locock

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 19:18

I've never owned a new car (OK these days I get a company lease car).



#1053 gruntguru

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 01:21

 Perhaps some people will never own a new car.

Even in developed countries, most people will never own a new car.

 

In the rest of the world, most people will never own a car.



#1054 RogerGraham

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 16:38

Isn't that already the case in large cities like New York?

 

Certainly mostly true in Hong Kong, unless you've got a family, or you're loaded and have a driver on call 24/7.



#1055 kikiturbo2

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 20:21

 

People buy cars for emotional reasons, mostly. I once worked in market research for a company providing data for the USA and Europe to big manufacturers. From an engineering or rational perspective, consumer decisions may seem bizarre.

 

Very true. People over here will buy cars whose size depends on their needs when traveling to their vacation... which is 2x a year. For the rest of the time they will clog the roads in overly large cars with 1 or 2 occupants and spend fuel trying to find parking spaces.

SUVs are also looked on as safe vehicles, with high seating position. The way they are developed these days, to cater to on road driving with minimal lean in corners, and too large wheels with low section tires, also makes them really uncomfortable.. To sumarise, average consumer is an idi%&.



#1056 BRG

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 18:56

To sumarise, average consumer is an idi%&.

Not sure if that means that they will buy EVs even though they are impractical, or that they won't buy EVs despite them being the best choice for the future of the planet.



#1057 Bob Riebe

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 20:06

The supposed cross-overs/ suvs are nothing more in reality than what used to be called station wagons.

More bulk, same purpose.



#1058 chunder27

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 20:19

Err

 

 Thats what I said a few days ago lol



#1059 Wuzak

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 10:02

So Musk is making some bold claims for the Tesla truck (due 2019) and the new Tesla roadster (due 2020).

 

For the truck he is claiming 0-60mph in 5s unladen, and 20s at maximum GVM (80,000lb). A 500 mile range at normal highway speeds and 30 minute recharging at Tesla stations at a guaranteed 7c/kWh wholesale electricity price. 

 

Operation cost he is claiming is 10-15% better than a Diesel truck.

 

 

He is also claiming lower cost per mile than trains when running in convoy! I find that a bit suspect, as trains pull a lot more load.

 

 

As for the roadster, Musk is claiming 0-60mph in 1,9s, 0-100mph in 4.2s, 8.9s quarter mile times and a top speed "over 250mph". The battery pack is said to be 200kWh giving a claimed range of 620 miles at highway speed.

 



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#1060 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 14:35

Some insights on the Hyundai Ioniq

 



#1061 mariner

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 15:05

My EV knowledge is very limited but nonetheless I put together a short talk on EV's for the local branch of the 750 Club, in it's spirit t of trying new things.

 

 

One guy came along who was a real EV expert having built his own at home.

 

The discussion got to range, or lack of it, and time on cable including queuing /anger time.

 

He then mentioned something that seems so obvious , a pusher module.

 

Here is a pic http://www.evconvert.../images/456.jpg

 

http://evworld.com/n...fm?newsid=30986

 

tBeasically l it seems amateur EV fans realised that range is an issue so took a front wheel drive car , cut eh back of, fitted a fuel tank and towbar and you just hook it up when you have long journey without dragging the IC engine and generator  around town.

 

I would think a more hi- tech version would have power cables to the cars motors and Atkinson capability.I am sure there must be some basic flaw I can't see but it does sem a nice lateral solution.


Edited by mariner, 17 November 2017 - 15:06.


#1062 Greg Locock

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 22:35

Stealing that. 



#1063 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:51

I have an even better idea, put the engine charging the battery in the car and make it drive the wheels instead. 

I know a very novel idea!



#1064 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:02

Reading in todays media about the Tesla truck. 500 miles [maybe] between charges. Where you will need some big cables going to a truck stop to recharge one let alone 20 trucks. Or more. 

And clearly whoever designed it has never driven a truck. Central seat for Gods sake. No mirrors. What a load of crock!

It may just be ok on freeways with the above fixed but travelling in convoys is a huge accident in motion. But very few if any trucks travel exclusivly on freeways every day. And driving through hilly areas will halve or more the 'economy'

So more millions wasted from a company that cannot fill orders now  for a semi practical commuter car, and has ever made a profit. And probably never will. So who is bankrolling him? 



#1065 mariner

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:40

Lee, basically everybody who uses Paypal. He owned it and sold it to Ebay for $1.5B  and that's where the Tesla money comes from , and for SpaceX 


Edited by mariner, 18 November 2017 - 09:41.


#1066 Disgrace

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 12:17

Lee, basically everybody who uses Paypal. He owned it and sold it to Ebay for $1.5B  and that's where the Tesla money comes from , and for SpaceX 

 

It's worth pointing out that Tesla are also taking deposits on the new Roadster now, despite the fact the car won't enter production until 2020. At this point, Musk is hiding in plain sight. Fans of electric vehicles, and I would include myself, ought to realise the industry is better off in the long term without Silicon Valley types.



#1067 BRG

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 19:54

Reading in todays media about the Tesla truck. 500 miles [maybe] between charges. Where you will need some big cables going to a truck stop to recharge one let alone 20 trucks. Or more. 

And clearly whoever designed it has never driven a truck. Central seat for Gods sake. No mirrors. What a load of crock!

It may just be ok on freeways with the above fixed but travelling in convoys is a huge accident in motion. But very few if any trucks travel exclusivly on freeways every day. And driving through hilly areas will halve or more the 'economy'

So more millions wasted from a company that cannot fill orders now  for a semi practical commuter car, and has ever made a profit. And probably never will. So who is bankrolling him? 

I would love to see a genuinely independent, objective trial of that truck in a real world scenario.  Because I simply don't believe Musk's claims for it. A full payload and 500 mile range?  If it is true, then all the EV problems that we have been worrying about have already been solved and we can all have daily EV drives that will run 1000 miles on a charge.



#1068 Greg Locock

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 21:32

Something like 6-10  tons of batteries, which comes straight off the payload. I'm not au fait with heavy road haulage and don't know what proportion of loads are volume limited (all those foam peanuts and air sacs) as opposed to weight limited.

 

6-10 tons is less than i'd thought, and of course the engine transmission/fuel tank needs to come off that weight. Charging is problematical.

 

The killer app is not long distance haulage, it's the mundane stuff like moving things from the railhead to the supermarket. In my opinion. For that you can get away with a much smaller range and hence battery.


Edited by Greg Locock, 18 November 2017 - 21:58.


#1069 Wuzak

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 23:16

Something like 6-10  tons of batteries, which comes straight off the payload. I'm not au fait with heavy road haulage and don't know what proportion of loads are volume limited (all those foam peanuts and air sacs) as opposed to weight limited.

 

6-10 tons is less than i'd thought, and of course the engine transmission/fuel tank needs to come off that weight. Charging is problematical.

 

The killer app is not long distance haulage, it's the mundane stuff like moving things from the railhead to the supermarket. In my opinion. For that you can get away with a much smaller range and hence battery.

 

I was going to say that the range all depends on the size of the battery, and that would come at the cost of payload.

 

The claim is for less than 2kWh/mile, which equates to a battery of around 1,000kWh. So at least 4,000kg of batteries. Which would seem to be about the double that of a big Diesel and transmission.

 

Apparently there is to be a 300 mile range version too. Which would suit the short range role.



#1070 Wuzak

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 23:41

Reading in todays media about the Tesla truck. 500 miles [maybe] between charges. Where you will need some big cables going to a truck stop to recharge one let alone 20 trucks. Or more.


The plan is for charging stations with solar power. Don't know how feasible that is at the moment.

Tesla have built charging stations for their cars, and will probably build them for the trucks.

 

And clearly whoever designed it has never driven a truck. Central seat for Gods sake. No mirrors. What a load of crock!


What is wrong with a central driving position? The Walmart prototype hybrid truck, built by Peterbilt, also has a central driving position.

Mirror functions are, I assume, provided by cameras/screens. Though adding mirrors may be required by authorities, and should not be a big deal.

 

It may just be ok on freeways with the above fixed but travelling in convoys is a huge accident in motion.


The convoy mode would be an extension of the automatic or semi-automatic cruise control function.

Other companies have trialed similar technology for cars travelling on freeways.

 



 

But very few if any trucks travel exclusivly on freeways every day. And driving through hilly areas will halve or more the 'economy'


Surely hilly terrain kills the range of conventional trucks too? Though going down the hills an electric truck will gain back some of the range it lost going up the hills.

 

So more millions wasted from a company that cannot fill orders now  for a semi practical commuter car, and has ever made a profit. And probably never will. So who is bankrolling him?


Facebook has never made a profit either, it its market value is billions. I don't think Amazon has made too many profits either, yet is one of the world's biggest companies.

 

"Semi practical commuter car"? Which one would that be? The Model 3, the Model S. Either of those are quite practical commuter cars. They probably have too much range to be considered commuter cars, though.

 

Note that the truck is 2 years away, so they gives them time to get Model 3 production sorted.



#1071 GreenMachine

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 01:14

Overall, this has the same 'smoke and mirrors' flavour you get from a better than average snake oil salesman.  Just tease with a shiny new bauble for tomorrow, and distract the marks away from the troubles of today.

 

The last time I looked, the transport world was looking at bigger payloads to increase efficiency - B-doubles, B-triples, higher mass limits.  The economics will determine uptake of course, but short of a sudden shortage of diesel (or emissions-related regulation) this road may be quite long and slow.  There may be niches, and the most obvious of these would be within the city, where noise and emissions are most sensitive issues, and where top-up/recharge facilities would be most economic (presumably).

 

Hilly terrain is VERY costly for a freight operator, hard on fuel/drivetrains going up, hard on brakes/drivetrains going down.  On that score the ability to regenerate battery charge in the electric vehicle would be, at the margin, a comparative advantage.  Might even be some learnings from current F1 to apply   ;)

 

McLaren F1 = central driving position.  That seemed to work out all right.



#1072 Greg Locock

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:28

Driving an LHD vehicle on a RHD road takes a bit of getting used to but even my paranoid employer doesn't actually insist on any training beforehand. (we do however have a rule that drivers from certain countries are not allowed to drive in company time, solo, in Oz, until they've been checked out)



#1073 Wuzak

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:25

The last time I looked, the transport world was looking at bigger payloads to increase efficiency - B-doubles, B-triples, higher mass limits.  

 

Aren't B-doubles and B-triples confined to certain roads, and more common in Australia's outback?



#1074 GreenMachine

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:11

B-doubles/triples are not to be confused with road trains.  Road trains are confined to the more 'outback-ish' parts of the country (eg west of the Newell in NSW).  Because of the way the trailers snake, they are not suited to roads with high traffic volumes.

 

B-doubles are more generally allowed to use major highways, and certain 'last mile' local roads.  B-triples are more restricted - they were operated by/for Ford between Broadmeadows and Geelong for example, and they have been trialled in NSW on the Hume some years ago.  I don't think the trial convinced anyone to allow them - I think the jump from 60t GCM to, I don't know 90-100t, was politically unsaleable.  However the pressures for HML - allowing the existing fleet to carry heavier payloads - is ongoing.

 

The point is, in the current transport paradigm, payload is king - in the jargon HPV (high productivity vehicles).



#1075 Catalina Park

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 09:52

There are lots of trucks doing supermarket distribution type work that are limited by volume not weight. They are carrying roll on roll off pallets of mixed items.
Those same trucks tend to run from big warehouses (with solar panels covering the roof) to supermarket loading docks. (also with solar panels on the roof)
These type of trucks tend to sit well inside the range of electric trucks.

Not every truck is carrying a full load. Not every truck does 1000km a day. My last job I was driving about 150km on a busy day.

#1076 mariner

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 10:05

I was going to say that the range all depends on the size of the battery, and that would come at the cost of payload.

 

The claim is for less than 2kWh/mile, which equates to a battery of around 1,000kWh. So at least 4,000kg of batteries. Which would seem to be about the double that of a big Diesel and transmission.

 

Apparently there is to be a 300 mile range version too. Which would suit the short range role".

 

2kWh/mile is interesting because 0.250kWh/mile seems to be the norm for mid size cars. E.g the Nissan Leaf has 30KWh batteries and  a range of 120 miles is normally quoted.

 

The bigger Tesla seems to use about 0.35kwh/mile. I.e 300 miles range over 80WH storage

 

So a 1,500kg Leaf uses 0.25 and a 2,000 kg Tesla 0.35 kwh/mile . Only two data points but it implies an extra 500 kg increases power demand by about 1.0  kwh/mile

 

so 80,000lb /2,200 = 36,300 kg gross Tesla truck weight less 2,000 kg = 34,300 extra *1.00 = 3.4 extra KWH/mile or about 3.75 not 2 khw/mile for the Tesla truck.

 

HOWEVER I suspect the Tesla design logic is that very few trucks gross out on weight these days. Many haul parcels etc and so max out on volume. In the UK the overnight logistics companies now use specialist semi-trailers as tall a as double decker bus and small wheels to maximize volume. 

 

For those users 2kwh/mile be be realistic if the truck is well streamlined. etc.

 

Mind you highway  truck speed must be an issue for long hauls as the Leaf which has the notional 120 mile range can apparently only do 52 miles at 75-80 mph so how far will the Tesla truck manage at 80 mph on an Interstate?

 


Edited by mariner, 19 November 2017 - 10:05.


#1077 Wuzak

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 10:11

Mind you highway  truck speed must be an issue for long hauls as the Leaf which has the notional 120 mile range can apparently only do 52 miles at 75-80 mph so how far will the Tesla truck manage at 80 mph on an Interstate?

 

The claim was for 500 mile range at highway speed (65mph).



#1078 Charlieman

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 13:41

Lee, basically everybody who uses Paypal. He owned it and sold it to Ebay for $1.5B  and that's where the Tesla money comes from , and for SpaceX 

Not quite. Musk made a lot of money from selling Paypal, providing the start-up capital for Tesla and SpaceX. Other investors have provided the money to keep the two companies going.

 

Both companies were founded on astute observations that governments and large corporations had funded great research into rockets and batteries, and that no companies were exploiting the technology. Musk stepped in. He was stepping into a void, because nobody had deployed the technology. Musk minimised the likelihood of financial oblivion by finding other backers.

 

Tesla cars are sold at a price -- a lot of money -- which is only achievable via government subsidy to rich people. Tesla has not announced a "world car", an electric powered car for ordinary people. Other car manufacturers will get there first.

 

SpaceX is a success because it makes rockets based on the work of others. Governments and large corporations pay SpaceX to use the technology that they created twenty years ago.

 

It looks, though, that Tesla is in a pickle. The special offer deals -- money up front for a Tesla sports car -- look like desperate fund raising because the company doesn't know how to build the Model 3.

 

And in the background, people are starting to ask where and how materials for cheap batteries are sourced. Can miners increase output?



#1079 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 00:08

Lee, basically everybody who uses Paypal. He owned it and sold it to Ebay for $1.5B  and that's where the Tesla money comes from , and for SpaceX 

If that is the case I hate the man,, Paypal has been a very crook operation always, and then owned by Ebay even worse.



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#1080 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 00:27

The plan is for charging stations with solar power. Don't know how feasible that is at the moment.

Tesla have built charging stations for their cars, and will probably build them for the trucks.

 


What is wrong with a central driving position? The Walmart prototype hybrid truck, built by Peterbilt, also has a central driving position.

Mirror functions are, I assume, provided by cameras/screens. Though adding mirrors may be required by authorities, and should not be a big deal.

 


The convoy mode would be an extension of the automatic or semi-automatic cruise control function.

Other companies have trialed similar technology for cars travelling on freeways.

 



 


Surely hilly terrain kills the range of conventional trucks too? Though going down the hills an electric truck will gain back some of the range it lost going up the hills.

 


Facebook has never made a profit either, it its market value is billions. I don't think Amazon has made too many profits either, yet is one of the world's biggest companies.

 

"Semi practical commuter car"? Which one would that be? The Model 3, the Model S. Either of those are quite practical commuter cars. They probably have too much range to be considered commuter cars, though.

 

Note that the truck is 2 years away, so they gives them time to get Model 3 production sorted.

I have driven trucks and central driving position will never be practical,, it was NOT in the McLaren and that is a sports car.

The model 3 is the one that is supposed to earn money and it is very behind. So before making further  hairy fairy announcements of new 'models' get your volume bread and butter up and running to orders.

Any loaded vehicle is going to use far more 'fuel' than normal in hilly areas, so you stop every 200 miles max for 45 min? These are supposed to be a practical interstate truck which they are not. And far from all interstate freight routes are freeways.

As a local delivery truck the dumb cab notwithstanding it may be of some use. But since it will be far more expensive to buy and maintain and from other reports I have read cost more to run it is unviable.

And at 4 tonne heavier tare weight is less practical on short  eg intercity routes routes anyway. 

 

The Sports Car is just another version of the existing vehicles so for a sporty commuter is the same as the others! 

 

Oh and as for not making a profit how are the shareholders being paid? A bit pointless investing money in something that has never made a profit as dividendds come from profits.

And the Govt could also stop the heavy subsidies as well and then the vehicles and parts are even more expensive and lass profitable.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 20 November 2017 - 00:30.


#1081 Kelpiecross

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 02:50


A battery-only electric truck is just as silly (or sillier) as/than a battery-only car - and for the same reasons. What's next - a battery 747? a battery half million ton bulk freighter?
However a hybrid truck may not be a bad idea - it could recover energy in hilly areas and maybe run battery-only in inner-city areas.

#1082 Greg Locock

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 04:23

The statement 'not all trucks will be EVs' is obvious. But as Catalina Park pointed out there is a niche for low payload, low(ish) range trucks. Since the truck market is pretty fragmented as it is, I'd have thought that it's an experiment worth trying, so long as I don't have to pay for it.

 

However I'd have thought electric buses would make more sense, lots of stop go, nasty smelly engines, and fairly low average speeds.



#1083 MatsNorway

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:53

Elon is focusing on the status symbols. Many things makes more sense than sports cars, luxury sedans, SUVs and BIG trucks. Tesla/Elon is still working in image.

 

He might fail.. But right now he is bigger/more promising than Steve Jobs ever was and have a way more impressive CV..  He is more confident and bold than isambard Kindom Brunel.

 

 

   

Edited by MatsNorway, 20 November 2017 - 09:59.


#1084 chunder27

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:26

Now that is a bold and rather ridiculous claim!

 

Brunel pioneered shipbuilding, massive building projects over several years. 

 

All this guy is doing is selling electric cars for rich people!



#1085 Greg Locock

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:08

In some ways it isn't a bad comparison. Brunel built several magnificent failures, for example we could compare the hyperloop and the atmospheric railway. The difference was that Brunel dunned private investors, not the public purse.

 

Of course the history of railways would be substantially different if we'd stuck with broad gage. I reckon that's 30% 'free' payload.



#1086 MatsNorway

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:49

Chunder27. Elon did not make zip2, paypal, Tesla and reusable rockets overnight either.

 

one who never fails. Have never done anything.

 

Infografic on Elon

http://2oqz471sa19h3...is-empire-1.jpg


Edited by MatsNorway, 20 November 2017 - 11:56.


#1087 chunder27

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:57

Brunel is rightly regarded as a pioneer, in all sorts of industries. Shipbuilding, railways and civil engineering.

 

Musk is a guy who has seemingly unlimited backing to make electric cars.  That is a narrow field, not the 3 or 4 that Brunel is working in.

 

If Musk makes breakthroughs that pioneer commercial transport, shipping and railways, fair enough.  You can compare him to perhaps one of the greatest engineers of our time!

 

But Steve Jobs is a better comparison.

 

To quote Bill Burr, "new phone can it fit the old charger, this is your hero?"  That is not genius. It is profiteering.



#1088 Charlieman

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 12:12

Oh and as for not making a profit how are the shareholders being paid? A bit pointless investing money in something that has never made a profit as dividendds come from profits.

Tesla does not offer dividends to shareholders. However if you bought stock one year ago, you'd make about $140 US per share if selling today and a bit more if you'd sold three months ago.

 

SpaceX is not a quoted company. 

 

These are not investments for your personal savings pot!



#1089 MatsNorway

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 13:29

I only said he was as bold or more than Brunel. Both took great risks. Elon would have been bankrupt if that third space X rocket had blown up. Sounds like something Brunel would have done too.

 

Slight OT. Personally i find the line between engineer/whatever/scientist blurry when you go back in time. Tesla through his discoveries of 3 phase made better engineering solutions than Edison. And Euler is called mathematician even tho he made lots of mechanical devices. 

 

Problems Euler solved on the side of what he determined as math is now its own fields of uh. math..

 

Anyway.. Rate them by their sum of achievements. And remember that new science and discovery gets increasingly hard for the solo individual as time goes by.  Same for innovation in business and entrepreneurship.

 

IKEA beat everyone in that industry, but who will beat IKEA?

 

The model S is the only luxury electric car on the marked, it has no real competition, no other electric car has the range or the systems. And it has been like that for 5years+

I think that is very impressive in a very large and highly competitive global industry.

 

Rolls Royce could have made a luxury electric car with more or comparable range.. they still make ugly turds with no reliability or really any impressive numbers anywhere. VW or whatever owns them lacks imagination and leadership. High end Mercedes/maybach is the new Rolls

 

Same can be said about Bentley who is more modernized

 

Elon have had success in software/internet, solarpanel/power supply, space industry and car industry.  He aims to continue with public transportation with his hyper loop and he wants to make his own tunnel boring machines so i guess he is looking to compete in the heavy industry sector too.

 

If he succeeds.. who will be comparable?

 

He is already extremely successful. And so far his career have had less bumps than Steve jobs had. He got kicked from Apple at one point. I expect bumps.. Boring company and hyper loop is my top picks.



#1090 gruntguru

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 22:24

Any loaded vehicle is going to use far more 'fuel' than normal in hilly areas, so you stop every 200 miles max for 45 min?

Ah Ha, that is where the E-truck will have a huge advantage. The economy of this type of vehicle will suffer far less in hilly terrain thanks to regenerative braking.

 

In case anyone is wondering about the harvesting power of the Tesla truck, the power required to accelerate from 0 - 60 mph in 20 seconds - fully laden - (as claimed by Tesla) is about 2,000 hp at the wheels.



#1091 gruntguru

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 22:28

Brunel is rightly regarded as a pioneer, in all sorts of industries. Shipbuilding, railways and civil engineering.

 

Musk is a guy who has seemingly unlimited backing to make electric cars.  That is a narrow field, not the 3 or 4 that Brunel is working in.

 

If Musk makes breakthroughs that pioneer commercial transport, shipping and railways, fair enough.  You can compare him to perhaps one of the greatest engineers of our time!

 

But Steve Jobs is a better comparison.

 

To quote Bill Burr, "new phone can it fit the old charger, this is your hero?"  That is not genius. It is profiteering.

 

I'm with Mats. Musk is a visionary. Electric vehicles, e-commerce, space travel, hyperloop, tunnel boring.



#1092 scolbourne

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 02:12

You are all missing the point with the electric truck. Where it will have the advantage is in cities like London which may ban petrol and especially diesel trucks.

I expect to see other cities follow suit. They will probably set up a freight depots outside the city where the diesel trucks drop their trailer and the last part of the journey is completed by the electric truck which may end up having a monopoly on this part of the trip.



#1093 mariner

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 17:48

It is pretty easy to shoot holes in an electric truck proposal but being more positive what Musk is offering  is really the tractor unit. He has  no choice as universality of trailers and hook-up is far more important,  I think, to logistics than what engine you use.

 

So you can swap the electric tractor for a diesel one wherever and whenever you like. Use the electric one to crawl across the flat , traffic-ridden LA basin then attach a diesel one to climb up out of LA to Barstow or wherever.

 

If you really want to, or are forced, to use electric on long haul you go double bottom in US parlance, and first couple a short pre-charged battery pack trailer onto  the tractor then couple the revenue trailer back  onto that. Many countries and states allow double bottoms on divided highways so a precedent exitss. Each big truck stop would recharge the  battery trailers off-line and swap them over while the driver has his/her unhealthy truck stop meal..


Edited by mariner, 21 November 2017 - 17:50.


#1094 BRG

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 22:09

You are all missing the point with the electric truck. Where it will have the advantage is in cities like London which may ban petrol and especially diesel trucks.

I expect to see other cities follow suit. They will probably set up a freight depots outside the city where the diesel trucks drop their trailer and the last part of the journey is completed by the electric truck which may end up having a monopoly on this part of the trip.

That would be innovative.  Except that posh shop Harrods were using electric delivery trucks in London before WW2 and of course all of us oldies remember the mikman delivering every morning from his electric mik float.  Nothing new.



#1095 GreenMachine

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 02:21

... universality of trailers and hook-up is far more important,  I think, to logistics than what engine you use.

I agree. There may be scope for innovation in the connection between prime mover/tractor and trailer, but in the current context that would be dependent on putting motors on the axles of the trailers (the Tesla seems to have them only on the prime mover, but that might change) and a new mechanism being the best way of getting the current to/from the trailer. I doubt that the limitations of a new mechanism for inter-operability of old/new would be offset by efficiencies in the new, but who knows what some genius may come up with.
 

... you go double bottom in US parlance,

Never heard that expression before. It may be the root of our term 'B-double' for a prime mover with two trailers each connected with the standard turntable, which is what I understand you are referring to.
 

and first couple a short pre-charged battery pack trailer onto  the tractor then couple the revenue trailer back  onto that. Many countries and states allow double bottoms on divided highways so a precedent exitss. Each big truck stop would recharge the  battery trailers off-line and swap them over while the driver has his/her unhealthy truck stop meal..

That would be a lot of manoevering. Simpler to make the prime mover longer to allow space for a big battery pack, which is swapped out (eg a big forklift) as necessary. On the other hand I am making assumptions about how big the battery pack would be, but it can't get too big or the whole premise of the electric truck starts to fall over.  There are also security issues associated with coupling/uncoupling trailers which would militate against such a system.



#1096 bigleagueslider

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 07:37

I don't think Musk fully appreciates the difference between the luxury car market and the commercial (class 8) heavy truck market. The typical buyer of a TSLA automobile is willing to pay premium price because it's a status symbol that allows them to publicly demonstrate just how enlightened and environmentally sensitive they are simply by driving around town. On the other hand, the typical buyer of a class 8 heavy truck is a very conservative businessman who doesn't give a darn about his public perception, and only cares about the economic value the vehicle provides to his business.



#1097 chunder27

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:19

Its exactly the same as Priuses 10 years ago when all the rich toffs in the US started buying them as a status symbol.

 

Now in the UK the only people that buy them largely are Asian taxi drivers as they will happily give up space for not paying road tax.

 

Muxsk is a clever guy no doubt, he has some great ideas and the money to pursue them.

 

But so far all he has offered the world is very expensive cars to try and convince people that electric cars can be fast and fun.

 

That's all.



#1098 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:49

I'm with Mats. Musk is a visionary.

 

 

There is a fine line between visionary and quack!  As Steve Jobs incorrectly attributes to Picasso:  "Good artists copy, great artists steal"... Apple sure have done a lot with appropriating and popularising ideas they obtained from other places. 

 

It's not bad to be an ideas man/woman... Ideas men/women usually have lots of failures and lots of exasperated engineers behind the scenes!  :eek:



#1099 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:52

Its exactly the same as Priuses 10 years ago when all the rich toffs in the US started buying them as a status symbol.

 

Now in the UK the only people that buy them largely are Asian taxi drivers as they will happily give up space for not paying road tax.

 

Sorry but they are popular in USA --- mainly California, because of CAFE and the pro-hybrid and pro-EV regulations and incentives that have been proven to be correct.

 

Europe on the other hand, implemented their disastrous policy of encouraging people to drive diesel passenger cars "to reduce CO2 emissions".  Now cities like London have horrible, unacceptable air pollution -- while those in Los Angeles can sit back with their relatively clean air, and smugly say "We got it right, and you Europeans messed up royally."

 

Source:

 
"Moreover, toxic NO x emissions of diesel cars have been underestimated up to 20-fold in officially announced data. The voluntary agreement signed in 1998 between the European Automobile industry and the European Commission envisaging to reduce CO2 emissions has been identified as elementary for the ensuing European diesel car boom. ... By comparing the European diesel strategy to the Japanese petrol-hybrid avenue, it becomes clear that a different road would have both more effectively reduced CO2 emissions and pollutants."
 
"Europe took a distinct route as compared to other parts of the world. ... We conclude that global warming has been negatively affected, and air pollution has become alarming in many European locations. More progressive development scenarios could have prevented these outcomes."
 
 
12302_2012_Article_93_Fig1_HTML.jpg
 
Diesels cars as percentage of passenger car fleet --- see how US and Japan have been so much more intelligent with their approach --- what an inexcusable disaster for the environment and urban-dweller's health.  :mad:   :down:

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 November 2017 - 09:02.


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#1100 chunder27

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 10:06

So the fact that Americans polluted with massively over sized, inefficient engines for decades and still drive massive trucks, RV's and pickups is all forgotten! Becauise for a few years you all bought V6 and V8 hybrids!

 

Lol