81 replies to this topic

[SonnyViceR]

Self-explanatory questions. Yes it's a bit messy looking poll table but sportscar racing is always complicated.

No need to inform me what the current guess around the paddock is, or what you might have heard lately, or that Don Panoz already (sort of) confirmed that P1 cars will not be featured on the grid - I know all of this. For this same reason I have not included LMP1s on the integration part.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 10 November 2012 - 19:29.

[pingu666]

I think having
dp and p2 together
lmpc a touch slower

GTE
grand am gt with gtc cars

2 prototype classes, 2 gt classes

[Myrvold]

Think it will be mostly NASCAR...;) Hope not.

[SonnyViceR]

Yeah well one of the stronger (/scarier) rumours has been

DP as the main class with spec tires
LMPC as the secondary class with spec tires (presumably performance balanced down)
GT* as the third (single GT) class with open tire formula // * Not sure in what form - probably just GTE but maybe GA-GT/GX integrated

However also strong rumours saying that GT will be divided into two classes. I guess GTE could be called GT1 and the secondary (GA-GT and/or GX) as GT2? Maybe?

It's all rumours at this stage (the announcement should come out before the end of the year though) but whatever happens, DPs WILL be in the main class, there is no way that Grand-Am/NASCAR is going to give up their headliner sportscar category. A couple of LMP2s will never top them, even at the "best" case scenario NASCAR is going to performance balance them to DP levels

Edited by SonnyViceR, 11 November 2012 - 18:12.

[BetaVersion]

I also think DPs will be the "higher category" and therefore Nascar won't allow ACO's prototypes on it.

My guess:
DP
Some higher GT class
some second tier GT class

[SonnyViceR]

I'm pretty sure that the ACO (LMP2 and/or LMPC) prototypes will be there in some form, either downtuned to perform on the same level as their slow & near-spec NASCAR counterparts, or more likely tuned down even further to act as secondary prototype classes. Lots of machinery dead in the water if DP becomes the only North American prototype category

Obviously Grand-Am is the one making calls over ALMS/IMSA but throwing everything into one basket is a dangerous game

[SonnyViceR]

News coming in that Dunlop pulls out of ALMS 2013 season. Might be a sign of spec-Continental (prototype) classes in 2014? Would certainly fit the needs of NASCAR

Edited by SonnyViceR, 12 November 2012 - 19:27.

[pingu666]

well they where supplying dyson's 2 cars, and bmw's 2 cars, plus some lmp2 cars, who else ?

[SonnyViceR]

Paul Miller Porkie in GT2

Anyway, some positives: Conquest will be testing their LMP2 @ Daytona soon, so all hope about the (non-spec) ACO prototypes is not lost yet. Of course I'd imagine Grand-Am to ballast them to stratosphere as soon as they realize how massive the lap time gap difference to slow-ass DPs is

[Red17]

Anyway, some positives: Conquest will be testing their LMP2 @ Daytona soon, so all hope about the (non-spec) ACO prototypes is not lost yet. Of course I'd imagine Grand-Am to ballast them to stratosphere as soon as they realize how massive the lap time gap difference to slow-ass DPs is

Well, no one posted the follow up. Here is a late bump:
http://auto-racing.s...s-daytona-test/

And with no surprise

Plowman completed more than 50 laps between the morning and afternoon sessions, setting an unofficial best time of 1:40.569. It was unofficially 0.765 seconds faster than Joao Barbosa’s Action Express Racing Corvette, which set the pace among the Daytona Prototypes in action.

Edited by Red17, 22 November 2012 - 23:16.

[SonnyViceR]

The official 2014 class structure will be revealed at Daytona this Friday so all fingers crossed.

Some bits & piece rumor news floating around:
* Certain (unreliable) source is claiming that the structure will be DP/P2 performance balanced (with DPs speeded up and P2s slowed down) + GTE slowed down & performance balanced with Rolex GT; the same source also saying that Daytona Prototype will become the sole prototype category in the series in few years
* Midweek Motorsport reporting that DPs will be allowed to run at Le Mans (in some form) in 2014
* ALMS LMP2 car count in doubt in 2013 as fundings aren't there, however P1 looks stronger - unlikely to affect the 2014 decision though

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 January 2013 - 08:32.

[SonnyViceR]

Not sure if the structure announcement will be streamed live like the previous press conference, but Radio Le Mans will have some coverage this Friday, starting 5PM UK time.

[highdownforce]

Something more official...

GRAND-AM, ALMS Announce 2014 Class Structure
Organizations Taking Inclusionary, 'Best Of Both Worlds' Multi-Class Approach

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. – Underscoring the cooperative spirit of their merger announced last September, GRAND-AM Road Racing and the American Le Mans Series presented by Tequila Patrón today unveiled the initial concept for the organizations' unified competition class structure that will debut in January 2014 at the 52nd running of the Rolex 24 At Daytona.

The lineup – in effect for the 2014 and 2015 seasons – is based on a philosophy of inclusion. The majority of classes from both the GRAND-AM Rolex Sports Car Series and the ALMS will be retained with the exception of the ALMS' P1 prototype class.

Individual class names have yet to be determined. The planned structure:
GRAND-AM's DP and the ALMS' P2 classes will combine into one, headlining prototype class that also will include the revolutionary DeltaWing prototype, with performance of the cars balanced to maintain close competition.

The ALMS' Prototype Challenge (PC) class for spec prototypes will continue to run as a separate class.

Both of the organizations' production-based GT classes will continue as separate, distinct categories based on performance, preserving each class' proud history and loyal fan following. As part of this plan, the ALMS' GTC cars will join the GRAND-AM GTs.
GRAND-AM's new GX class, which is debuting at this year's Rolex 24 later this month, is being explored as a possible addition to the GRAND-AM half of the GT mix in 2014-15. There also is the possibility that GX will run separately as a fifth class.

Specifications for all classes still are being determined and will be announced later this year. In addition, there will be continued discussion regarding the increasing inclusion of green technologies in the new unified series.

"This is a 'best of both worlds' approach that reflects the fact we have a true merger evolving on a daily basis," said GRAND-AM Managing Director of Competition Richard Buck.

"And this announcement is only a first step in solidifying our class structure. Our organizations' respective competition departments are working diligently on balance of performance for the top prototype class, plus overall class specifications across the board.

"This process is not being rushed. We are carefully gathering input from drivers, teams and stakeholders throughout the sports car industry, emphasizing inclusion, as we work toward a simple – but also complex – goal: we want to get it right the first time."

Added International Motor Sports Association and ALMS Chief Operating Officer Scot Elkins: "Numerous important partners and stakeholders have been invaluable during this process. We could not have reached these decisions as rapidly as we did without that assistance. Many factors were taken into consideration for this initial conceptual lineup, but the priority was to enable as many current competitors as possible to continue racing with their existing equipment.

"We also want to thank the Automobile Club de l'Ouest (ACO) for its input as we strive to maintain the important ability of teams to qualify for and race in the 24 Hours of Le Mans."

http://www.grand-am....d...=6383&sid=1

[Ross Stonefeld]

That sounds a bit messy.

[HaydenFan]

That sounds a bit messy.

Outside the performance balancing of the prototype classes, it is pretty much a smooth sounding merger.

I think the ALMS GT class was kept mostly to keep the ACO and Le Mans open to the competitors. I don't think people running the P2 cars will be that interested in Le Mans, well, more like capable to competing in Le Mans due to the balancing rules, but a good transition.

But looking at what we have in 2012-2013 in both series, we had 17 DP's compete in the testing at Daytona today. I think about 13 or 14 are entries that will run the entire season. You had 6 entries in P2 and 3 entries in P1 in ALMS last season. I think you'll see about 5 or 6 of those entries this season, maybe less, maybe more, and about the same returning for 2014. So the potential of maybe 20 full time entries in the top category of the new series.

[DanardiF1]

They still haven't said if they're speeding up the DP's or dumbing down the P2's... although if they want those P2's to compete at La Sarthe I don't see them being slowed down.

[Victor_RO]

They still haven't said if they're speeding up the DP's or dumbing down the P2's... although if they want those P2's to compete at La Sarthe I don't see them being slowed down.

I did see something said about it, and it was to the effect of "P2s stay where they are, DPs get speeded up to P2 level".

[Risil]

Pruett says a lot of Indycar team principals were at the Rolex 24, and mentioned to him their interest in fielding cars in 2014... Ganassi and Rahal are already there; I assume Andretti and HVM are candidates to join them. Dragon and Schmidt seem like teams interested in expanding, so my uneducated guess would include them, too.

Good news for racing fans, although the short-term effect for Indycar might be some sort of reduction in car counts. The third Penske only came about once the team stopped its Porsche LMP2 programme, after all.

Edited by Risil, 29 January 2013 - 13:55.

[HaydenFan]

Pruett says a lot of Indycar team principals were at the Rolex 24, and mentioned to him their interest in fielding cars in 2014... Ganassi and Rahal are already there; I assume Andretti and HVM are candidates to join them. Dragon and Schmidt seem like teams interested in expanding, so my uneducated guess would include them, too.

Good news for racing fans, although the short-term effect for Indycar might be some sort of reduction in car counts. The third Penske only came about once the team stopped its Porsche LMP2 programme, after all.

Actually, it was the Grand Am program Penske cut for the Will Power car, but yeah, I think you'd see the smaller teams either leaving or cutting down to a single car.

I don't see Andretti or Penske going back though. They left pretty quickly when the manufacturer money left ALMS.

[Risil]

This week in multi-class competition:

 

IMSA confirms 29 prototype entries for TUDOR United Sportscar Championship -- Racer.com

 

United Sportscar Championship gets 13 prototype entries for 2014 -- Autosport.com

 

Content sharing, content shmaring

[Ross Stonefeld]

I've seen some figures for proposed USC budget, for running the old ALMS P2 car. It was a combined USC + Indy 500 entry. Yeah it's cheaper than Indycar but hardly what I'd call affordable. And without a ton of manufacturer money I don't see why Indycar teams think it would make good business sense. Though you tend to have one paying driver so maybe the budget figures get better but that's asking a lot of money from the co-driver.

[SonnyViceR]

The official pdf version is also on the IMSA website

http://www.imsa.com/...3_EntryList.pdf

 

Nevermind the P2/DP BoP garbage and the flying DPs at Daytona, it's still quite funny to see how even splitted the full season P entry is between the two categories. Ie 5 P2s and 6 DPs, with Pickett rather damn likely not going with the NASCAR dinosaur tech either (that's what Greg would say too...)

 

Rolex GT got rid of all of the old tube framers - and none of the GX cars came after all - so it's now a dumbed down GT3 class for the most part. GTE is a bit thin and PC overcrowded

 

It's a messy list but okay all things considered. But they still have millions of issues to work through, it's been a bumpy ride and next year will be all about BoP games

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 December 2013 - 14:31.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Wouldn't it have been a little easier to give out some subsidies so the new teams could just take up DP? A bit like how the CART teams were helped out getting cars when Indycar merged.

[SonnyViceR]

Subsidies, what you mean like in the past when NASCAR had to financially fund certain Grand-Am teams like Action Express so that they wouldn't leave their precious class?

 

They don't wanna favour one class over another on this instance. Well technically not, but of course after Roar the BoP for Daytona will have whatever political effect IMSA and NASCAR wish

 

DP owners were already crying for having to spend extra cash for upgrades (something that in the past was only needed to do when new gen spec DP car was introduced), now that they actually need to have some development they seem all shocked. And what they don't, or rather didn't appear to understand in their self-centered-Grandam universe was that EVEN if P2s (and DW) hadn't been integrated to the P class, increase of performance and larger budget was still necessary in order to make gap to PC and GTLM... which in the past used to be actually as fast or faster on certain circuits...

 

Of course, if the upcoming pre-Roar Daytona test ends up with another flying DP & crappy Continental tire -catastrophe, who knows if IMSA wants to go back to older DP tech and goes bonkers on P2 (and other class) air restrictor + weight values.

 

The most annoying thing with the pre-capped field (apart from the fact that some of these circuits can hold double amount of entries than series claims, as proved by the likes of CTSCC) is that quality entries such as AF Corse and certain European LMP2 teams have been either rejected or forced to dismiss plans of racing in the US, while grid filling spec Oreca FLM09s are allowed to flourish in their class

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 December 2013 - 15:14.

[JLF1]

I would love to see LMP1 out in force, that would actually make me want to watch it, I can't stand the DP's

[Ross Stonefeld]

Subsidies, what you mean like in the past when NASCAR had to financially fund certain Grand-Am teams like Action Express so that they wouldn't leave their precious class?

 

 

 

More like an entrant support program. Existing teams get X dollars to upgrade their DPs new teams get X plus Y to help change their cars.

[chipmcdonald]

What would have to happen to bring Audi, Toyota and Porsche back?

[SonnyViceR]

What would have to happen to bring Audi, Toyota and Porsche back?

 

One of these

 

- NASCAR to cease sportscar operations

- USCC to die off and be replaced by something else by IMSA

- Breakaway championship formed by LMP(1) teams

- New separate ACO NA series

[SonnyViceR]

The race lengths for the dual LMPC / IMSA Light races at Virginia and garbage-roval of Kansas will be 45 minutes which is, umm, interesting.

 

P/GTLM race at Long Beach and P/GTD Detroit have been shortened to 100 minutes (the old ALMS format at LB) while Laguna Seca's dual format has also been cut to 2 hours. Now, the rest I can understand and I certainly disagree with all the moaning and bitching you see for example over at sportscar365 (it's not all about endurance people!) but the 2 hour format at Laguna is bit of a shame considering that the event went from 6 to 4 hours in few years time. Though technically that's still 4 hours when you have two races, and 6½ when you count in CTSCC.

 

Speaking of the classes, the recent pre-Roar tests at Daytona appeared to have gone smoothly for the DP/P2 mess, but it's hard to see what's the situation really is. I still wish that GT car wins Daytona (and/or Sebring) overall so that a) NASCAR and IMSA can see how foolishly they've made the preparations b) because it would be fun

[Red17]

In all due honesty I think you can get the same result by just having an LMP2 car win, which falls into the fact you pointed out that some good outfits were denied an entry.

[SonnyViceR]

In all due honesty I think you can get the same result by just having an LMP2 car win, which falls into the fact you pointed out that some good outfits were denied an entry.

 

P2 winning wouldn't really be a mockery of the (lack of) preparations of IMSA & NASCAR since those cars are expected to be able to win... okay if LMP2 wins at Daytona, DP teams would moan and cry - because that's their natural element - but BoP would make them superior for the next round so it doesn't really matter. Likewise if you have superior DPs at Daytona, they'll performance balance the P2s so that they'll have 'fair chance' for Daytona. 2014 is going to be all about that nonsense. Though Sebring should suit them better in any cas

[DanardiF1]

Have the GTLM cars tested at Daytona yet? Would love to see Corvette or Viper do something at the 24 to troll NASCAR...

[Victor_RO]

Have the GTLM cars tested at Daytona yet? Would love to see Corvette or Viper do something at the 24 to troll NASCAR...

 

Private testing for Corvette, SRT ran the Viper at the series-scheduled test back in November, and Ferrari had a Corse Clienti-entered GTE car at the same test.

[SonnyViceR]

If GTLM shows "too high of a performance" at the Roar (or even race week practice & qualifying), they will surely be handed BoP penalties. Meaning that sandbagging, as ever, is the key...

[SonnyViceR]

GT3 Nissan for GTD's TBA slot

https://www.dailyspo...ar.com/?p=19690

 

Kinda glad in a sense that RLM isn't covering this series (apart than on MWM) as otherwise their Nissan sponsorship demands would require them to mention and praise that car every two minutes

 

Also Greg's Prototype entry is P2 spec, but we all already knew that he would never race NASCAR tube framers in this series

Edited by SonnyViceR, 17 December 2013 - 19:59.

[SonnyViceR]

Also Greg's Prototype entry is P2 spec, but we all already knew that he would never race NASCAR tube framers in this series

 

Oreca Nissan it is then...

 

Such a boring car to have after HPD, but better than DP at least.

[Victor_RO]

Oreca Nissan it is then...

 

Such a boring car to have after HPD, but better than DP at least.

 

And definitely not boring for TUSC, there may be a ton of them in ELMS + WEC but this is the first one over there. And probably the best chance the LMP2 field has against the DPs in the long races.

[SonnyViceR]

Roar is happening at Daytona right now, and so far (we're in session 2) the DPs are totally dominating the timesheets... looks as NASCAR went ultra conservative on that front with BoP as one expected. One would expect re-tweaking P2s into more competitive form as the next step. As usual this weekend is the unofficial equilevalent of FIA GT3's pre-season Balance of Performance sessions, the difference being that there's no dedicated driver doing the testing but just the teams trying to sandbag as hard as they can. Just look at what happened to those Corvette DPs a while back, absolutely dominated the Roar and NASCAR rendered them totally uncompetitive by the time it was time for the race weekend. Of course last year Ganassi and others also got BoP help after qualifying too...

 

GTLM few seconds faster than GTD and among the PCs...

 

Risi is skipping this test. Among other reasons, not running at the Roar helps them avoiding BoP penalties as it’s unlikely that Krohn Ferrari will show too much of a performance… instead they might get favourable BoP.

 

Oh and one of the Lola Mazdas was wrecked this morning.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 03 January 2014 - 20:46.

[Victor_RO]

I would also count in another couple of factors: the track and the weather. Daytona is a power track, so out of all the tracks on the calendar it probably plays best towards the strengths of the DP, and today the teams have been running in rather cold conditions, so maybe the P2 cars have some issues with getting the tires to work.

 

As far as I'm aware, the HPDs and the Nissan-powered cars are running today at 900kg and with ACO-spec restrictors.

[SonnyViceR]

Sebring should suit the P2s better of course.

 

One more thing about BoP is that now that we actually have way more P2s than initially expected (six ie half of the full season P entry list) it is certain that the adjustment politics will be done different way between the two worlds, than if it had been just say two ESM HPDs against the NASCAR tube frame armada...

[Afterburner]

The LMP2s being hobbled so much is disgusting to me. If the DPs are cheaper and are going to be faster as well due to NASCAR treating the LMP2s like Harrison Bergerons, then surely LMPs will eventually be phased out altogether, no?

[Victor_RO]

The LMP2s being hobbled so much is disgusting to me. If the DPs are cheaper and are going to be faster as well due to NASCAR treating the LMP2s like Harrison Bergerons, then surely LMPs will eventually be phased out altogether, no?

 

Actually... right now the "hobbling" for the LMP2 cars at the Roar is only Conti tires + Le Mans-style aero package iirc.

[TecnoRacing]

Does anyone the race starting procedure for the new series? Will it be the proper full grid spectacle, or the underwhelming Grand-Am style, split class, separate green-flag start?

[Victor_RO]

Does anyone the race starting procedure for the new series? Will it be the proper full grid spectacle, or the underwhelming Grand-Am style, split class, separate green-flag start?

 

I'm hoping it will be the full grid spectacle, it'll be far too fiddly and annoying to start 4 classes separately.

[SonnyViceR]

Actually... right now the "hobbling" for the LMP2 cars at the Roar is only Conti tires + Le Mans-style aero package iirc.

 

a) this is only draft BoP

b) DPs have received performance upgrades while the P2s have not, so it's not only about the handicaps of the P2s itself

 

I'm hoping it will be the full grid spectacle, it'll be far too fiddly and annoying to start 4 classes separately.

 

Hopefully all 4 classes but most likely it's the boring Grand-Am routine... not all four classes separately (GX wasn't separate from Rolex GT either), but P+PC and then GTLM+GTD. That's what I think it'll be unfortunately, Prototypes and then GTs

 

The super annoying thing about that is when for example one of the prototypes gets a qualifying lap time that puts it in the 62nd overall place, it then gets automatically moved to 17th place because all the prototypes start together... and if the GTLMs are faster than some of the PCs it doesn't matter as they will be just begged pack.

 

Also the chance of post-qualifying BoP just makes the water boil.

 

Then again it doesn't really matter in a race of cautions every 10 minutes and wave arounds & Lucky Dogs to form artificially close grandstand NASCAR finish

Edited by SonnyViceR, 04 January 2014 - 11:07.

[Victor_RO]

The super annoying thing about that is when for example one of the prototypes gets a qualifying lap time that puts it in 62nd overall place, then the it gets automatically moved to 17th place because all the prototypes start together

 

Then again it doesn't really matter in a race of cautions every 10 minutes and wave arounds & Lucky Dogs to form artificially close grandstand NASCAR finish

 

They're not using the lucky dog, they only used it at the Rolex 24 in 2012 and scrapped it again last year, but as for number of cautions... both ALMS and Grand-Am were rather equally bad on that aspect, and it's the ALMS race control team that will call the shots.

[SonnyViceR]

They're not using the lucky dog, they only used it at the Rolex 24 in 2012 and scrapped it again last year, but as for number of cautions... both ALMS and Grand-Am were rather equally bad on that aspect, and it's the ALMS race control team that will call the shots.

 

I know that they adopted the IMSA SC format last year but one would be naive if they thought that this series is going to be run under full ALMS race control mode... wave arounds for everybody, cars will be brought back to contention from 7 laps down

 

They've adopted the NASCAR/Grand-Am "as long as you car finishes on top3 it doesn't matter if it fails post-race scrutineering, it still keeps the place as otherwise the fans would be confused for some reason" format too

 

e: typo, meant post-race

Edited by SonnyViceR, 04 January 2014 - 11:16.

[HaydenFan]

 

They've adopted the NASCAR/Grand-Am "as long as you car finishes on top3 it doesn't matter if it fails post-race scrutineering, it still keeps the place as otherwise the fans would be confused for some reason" format too

 

e: typo, meant post-race

 

What fans? More people will be posting here than in the grandstands at Daytona. 

 

From the sounds of things, the P2 cars might also be slagging a bit as well. And wouldn't blame them. Look off the pace enough that maybe IMSA will cave and give the BoP leaning their way more. And I did not realize how slow the Prototype Challenge cars really where in comparison to the Prototype class. A bit like 2003 when the DP cars where introduced. When the GT cars were occasionally putting cars on the overall podium. 

[SonnyViceR]

What fans? More people will be posting here than in the grandstands at Daytona. 

 

From the sounds of things, the P2 cars might also be slagging a bit as well. And wouldn't blame them. Look off the pace enough that maybe IMSA will cave and give the BoP leaning their way more. And I did not realize how slow the Prototype Challenge cars really where in comparison to the Prototype class. A bit like 2003 when the DP cars where introduced. When the GT cars were occasionally putting cars on the overall podium. 

 

Nevertheless that is the explanation NASCAR has given... also while there's very little crowd at Daytona, Sebring still gets massive amounts of people. I mean massive. PLM also has nice crowds. I bet that the Grand-Am people will be shocked when they actually see real crowds in the stands because ALMS had been one of the only sportscar series left with real crowds (something WEC can only dream of outside Le Mans, and maybe Fuji?). Then again the death of ALMS probably has alienated some of the fanbase

 

LMPC were never particularly fast. Those FLM09s are ancient anyway, started life as P1 Courage/Orecas many many moons ago. Though a couple of years ago they did kinda mix with the P2s so that they got all got air restrictor decrease

[Risil]

Anyone have some numbers about Daytona 24 Hours attendance? I say this because 1) it's a huge facility and a record F1 crowd would look small there, and 2) people have been saying "the stands look empty" since the first running of the event and we've all come to love/grudgingly accept it anyway. I would expect the crowd to be lower than Sebring but numbers rather than impressions would be nice.

Edited by Risil, 04 January 2014 - 16:38.