84 replies to this topic

[HPT]

Surely the wrong strategy played the major part in putting him in the situation he was in. But not even attempting to make a move is the unexcusable drive. If he would have tried to slide inside, Petrov would have given him room (he was mirror driving on every straight), trying and failing would have been understandable, but not even trying... Hamilton and Kubica were in a completely different situation then Alonso Championship contender in the final race vs Petrov trying to not be kicked out of F1 for foolish mistakes. Hamilton would have just made a risky move on Petrov if he were in a Championship fight, there is no way he would have followed him just on and on. Different drivers have different attitudes.

Did you see the lap when Alonso dived up the inside of Petrov, locked brakes and all, only to run wide at the corner while Petrov takes his normal racing line? That was a pretty close call. It's not as simple as you think.

[garoidb]

Alonso has never been amongst the best in these situations, this was no different.

He and Massa got the best possible results without risking too much - i.e. leaving open the possibility of benefitting from a misfortune to Button or Vettel. That was all that could be done today.

[Mr.Wayne]

He and Massa got the best possible results without risking too much - i.e. leaving open the possibility of benefitting from a misfortune to Button or Vettel. That was all that could be done today.

I think that he refers to the fact that, on a weekend when THE WHOLE TEAM was around Alonso, Massa managed to be faster than him throughout the weekend...

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Fernando's time will come.

Roll on 2013.

[Trust]

Alonso could have won it if he had the pace of Massa this weekend. Could have fought with Button for the win. Though, it was still remarkable season from him and easily the best driver in 2012. Now roll on 2013 when all are starting from zero.

[Lone]

You can critisize Alonso all you want and some rightfully but saying he isn't performin in high pressure situations is plainly wrong.

Hamilton, Button, Vettel have all shown much more weakness in high pressure situations than Alonso. The only one on the grid who is cooler in high pressure situations are Räikkonnen (I have excluded Scumacher in this discussion for reasons I will keep to myself).

[Jejking]

Yes, but not all becæuse of pressure...they have done many mistakes in other races too you know.

Why do you think I mentioned the last races of the season for all of them? It's when the pressure is immense, the most important part of the season.

[Jejking]

Alonso could have won it if he had the pace of Massa this weekend. Could have fought with Button for the win. Though, it was still remarkable season from him and easily the best driver in 2012. Now roll on 2013 when all are starting from zero.

But he hadn't. And there's no shame in that. Everybody has tracks he doesn't like or like less. Alonso fought like a lion and unfortunately he was racing his balls off for nothing. Going off the track was a sign he was already on the limit and crossed it in the damp condition, that can happen to anyone who has nobody directly in front to set the marks. Ferrari was off the pace today and Alonso was taking massive risks but it wasn't enough (I almost thought he lost it on his old tyres in the rain after turn 3, that was unbelievable).

[garoidb]

I think that he refers to the fact that, on a weekend when THE WHOLE TEAM was around Alonso, Massa managed to be faster than him throughout the weekend...

That's fine, though. If Massa is on his proper form (as he now seems to be), he should be competitive with Alonso and beat him some of the time. I hope we see that next season.

However, for today, I reckon they got the best race result achievable for Ferrari. It was essential that Alonso finish in a position that would yield the WDC if Vettel had issues. They managed that - and 2nd in the WCC to boot!

[Atreiu]

He proved a lot of people wrong today, strong drive and a stronger season, epic.

High pressure means "must deliver" not "has nothing to lose".

[garoidb]

Alonso could have won it if he had the pace of Massa this weekend. Could have fought with Button for the win. Though, it was still remarkable season from him and easily the best driver in 2012. Now roll on 2013 when all are starting from zero.

That is just an assertion on your part of something which you cannot know, the motivation for which is embarassingly clear.

Edited by garoidb, 25 November 2012 - 20:53.

[figue]

I can't believe one of the most remarkable drives of all times it's being criticised here. But well, this is anti Fernando's forum so it doesn't really surprises me.

What's the average of positions gained by Fernando's race after race?

How many podiums?

[tkulla]

I was disappointed in Fernando today. He got the conditions he needed, the conditions that equalize the cars and he drove a solid but unremarkable race. Is the Force India suddenly a better car than the Ferrari? The Hulk was in the mix because he was FAST. Alonso problem today was that he was just too slow. Massa would have beaten him had they been racing each other, just as in the USA. He may still be the best all-around F1 driver, but I didn't see anything special today. Hulk was better, Jenson was better, Lewis was better, Felipe was better and Vettel was better with his recovery drive.

[Henrik B]

I can't believe one of the most remarkable drives of all times it's being criticised here.

Okay, Alonso did OK today and I have no complaints really but "remarkable drives" don't include having your teammate wait and move over for you.

[scheivlak]

I can't believe one of the most remarkable drives of all times it's being criticised here.

Great first few laps, a great pass on two cars at the same time but TBH nothing special from Fernando after that and even an occasional mistake.
He simply lucked into that podium and Massa was better on the day.

Edited by scheivlak, 25 November 2012 - 22:48.

[Louis Mr. F1]

i was under similar impression, why was a Force India able to challenge the McLaren but not Alonso? Was the Force India a better car today? Fernando had everything on the plate for him, chaotic race, Vettel at the rear, Hulkenberg eliminated Hamilton and himself, Massa protecting him and letting him through.

I think he couldn't ask for anything more.

[jk]

He did not shine when he had the chance. Instead he did a steady race and got a good position in the end. This is how he has been most of the year, apart from the fact that Massa has stepped up and loves Interlagos.

[as65p]

Remember Silvester Stallone.

Say no more.

Maybe you're right. I also never saw a real-life boxing match like Rocky did them. Guess reality sucks a bit.

[wonderwall]

I was disappointed in Fernando today. He got the conditions he needed, the conditions that equalize the cars and he drove a solid but unremarkable race. Is the Force India suddenly a better car than the Ferrari?

Did it suddenly become better than the Mclaren and redbull as well? The force India has been quicker than Ferrari a few times this season, so I don't see the surprise that it could be quicker yesterday than a car which has consistently struggled for performance all year. Once again Alonso delivered the best possible result on the day which was second, but it was not enough because the car was simply too slow.

Edited by wonderwall, 26 November 2012 - 06:06.

[Seanspeed]

I was disappointed in Fernando today. He got the conditions he needed, the conditions that equalize the cars and he drove a solid but unremarkable race. Is the Force India suddenly a better car than the Ferrari? The Hulk was in the mix because he was FAST. Alonso problem today was that he was just too slow. Massa would have beaten him had they been racing each other, just as in the USA. He may still be the best all-around F1 driver, but I didn't see anything special today. Hulk was better, Jenson was better, Lewis was better, Felipe was better and Vettel was better with his recovery drive.

Ferrari was off the pace all weekend. I think that really needs to be taken into account. Mclaren and Red Bull were much more competitive and Hulkenberg was really the only person who did anything extra spectacular. I find it very hard to say that Button or Lewis did anything more than Alonso did considering the machinery. Massa was impressive but he owed much of his finishing position, even if it was a 2nd place, to luck as well. Everybody that finished did, really. I dont see how its fair to single out Alonso on that. It might not have been his best race, but he did what was needed of him. The car wasn't going to be enough to compete for the win, but he mostly maximised what was on the table.

[mnmracer]

Ferrari was off the pace all weekend. I think that really needs to be taken into account. Mclaren and Red Bull were much more competitive and Hulkenberg was really the only person who did anything extra spectacular. I find it very hard to say that Button or Lewis did anything more than Alonso did considering the machinery. Massa was impressive but he owed much of his finishing position, even if it was a 2nd place, to luck as well. Everybody that finished did, really. I dont see how its fair to single out Alonso on that. It might not have been his best race, but he did what was needed of him. The car wasn't going to be enough to compete for the win, but he mostly maximised what was on the table.

Give Massa some credit there ;-)

[motorhead]

Give Massa some credit there ;-)

I agree, alonso maximized nothing in quali

[Kucki]

Did you see the lap when Alonso dived up the inside of Petrov, locked brakes and all, only to run wide at the corner while Petrov takes his normal racing line? That was a pretty close call. It's not as simple as you think.

And when was this supposed attack? All I saw was Alonso following and following, waiting for a mistake from Petrov. Never pushing never attacking. Having shy looks before the braking zone only.

Alonso is the type of driver who does not make a move unless he can safely put the car completely alongside the car infront, and finish the move off cleanly. You dont see Alonso sliding in there, with tires locking squeezing himself, making a move coming from way behind like Hulkenberg did or Kobayashi would have done,... not Alonso its just not him. What he needed there was a deep dive into the corner, a move that would let him even run a little wide over the apex, blocking Petrovs entry in a way that says 'you either give way or we crash'. If it would have gone wrong he might have just ran wide and then slotted in behind him. But that is not his driving style, he will only try a move if his 100% confident he can finish it safely.

When Alonso gets into a very high pressure situation he focuses and referrs back to what he does best. Beeing extremely consistant. I bet his Qualy laps in Austin and Interlagos were spot on consistant. With no sliding at all around the apex, no locked up wheel, no risk, pin point driving. His driving behind Button was the same. Not attacking each corner aggressively, but patient consistant driving. Some will say it must have been completely impossible to finish better in this race. There are realistic signs Massa would have won this race on merit, if he would not had to slow down and let Alonso pass.

I want to repeat Alonso is a brilliant brilliant driver and 2 titles suit him well. But he does not like risks, and when the pressure is really high he always preferrs to go back to consistancy rather then aggressiveness, even when aggressiveness is whats needed in his situation. Its perfect the way he won his Championships, managing his points lead with consistant driving. But the way he lost his other Championships is also telling, when the pressure was on he could not change his approach.

Edited by Kucki, 26 November 2012 - 07:42.

[wonderwall]

And when was this supposed attack? All I saw was Alonso following and following, waiting for a mistake from Petrov. Never pushing never attacking. Having shy looks before the braking zone only.

Then surely you must have seen Lewis Hamilton, the most aggressive driver on the grid, doing the exact same thing, against the exact same car in that very race despite having less to lose, fresher tyres, and a better DRS.

[Kucki]

Hamilton was in a normal points race. His goal was to bring home good points, Alonso was not in the situation to grab a couple of points, he was in a title race. It didnt matter anymore for Alonso whether he would DNF. He needed to get by. He needed to try a move atleast when there was nothing to lose anymore. The risk/reward odds were completely different. Kubica was also a much more confident, established driver on the grid. Petrov was in the worst critisism all year, he was not going to be the one that decides the WDC with another mistake. He was passive and mirror driving all straight long, at one instance when Alonso was having just a look before the braking zone he even turned in late because he was so passive. He knew who was behind him, he knew what was on the line.

Edited by Kucki, 26 November 2012 - 07:52.

[wonderwall]

Hamilton was in a normal points race. His goal was to bring home good points, Alonso was not in the situation to grab a couple of points, he was in a title race. It didnt matter anymore for Alonso whether he would DNF. He needed to get by. He needed to try a move atleast when there was nothing to lose anymore. The risk/reward odds were completely different. Kubica was also a much more confident, established driver on the grid. Petrov was in the worst critisism all year, he was not going to be the one that decides the WDC with another mistake. He was passive and mirror driving all straight long, at one instance when Alonso was having just a look before the braking zone he even turned in late because he was so passive. He knew who was behind him, he knew what was on the line.

Yes Hamilton was in a normal points race which means he had nothing to lose by crashing into Kubica, while Alonso had a championship to lose. You do not seem to understand that even if your life is on the line, you cannot break the laws of physics and overtake if you can't get close enough. Petrov was driving for his career and is a very aggressive driver, he was never waiting to jump out of the way.

[mnmracer]

Yes Hamilton was in a normal points race which means he had nothing to lose by crashing into Kubica, while Alonso had a championship to lose. You do not seem to understand that even if your life is on the line, you cannot break the laws of physics and overtake if you can't get close enough. Petrov was driving for his career and is a very aggressive driver, he was never waiting to jump out of the way.

Hamilton had no need to make a move on Kubica, as he was going to (and ended up) overtaking him when Kubica pitted. He finished second.
Alonso had to make a move yet failed.

[Kucki]

One has to see there is a difference between racing drivers. Pace and lap times are not the only difference between drivers. Theres a big difference in approach and driving style. A Hamilton, a Maldonado has a different attitude on the track then Alonso. That goes into the negative aswell as the positive.

Hamilton would have very likely either wrecked Petrov, but Petrov would have surely gave way, and Hamilton would have continued aggressively and likely qould have won the title in Abu Dhabi if he were in Alonsos case. While Alonso would have surely not pushed like crazy pointlessly in China to the point of running on the carcass and losing the title theway Hamilton did..

[wonderwall]

Hamilton had no need to make a move on Kubica, as he was going to (and ended up) overtaking him when Kubica pitted. He finished second.
Alonso had to make a move yet failed.

No need? So Hamilton, did not want to win the race? Thats a new one. Lewis lost a massive amount of time behind Kubica and lost the race. The hypocrisy is funny. Hamilton was in the same position yet failed to even attempt an overtake.

[Kucki]

There was no need for Hamilton to take unusual risks because he was in a normal points race. Kubica would have defended him hard. Alonso was not there to drive home a couple of points, he was there to go all out aggressively and do whatever it takes to win the title. Bringing home a couple of points would have not made any difference anymore.

Theres another aspect. I have watched F1 races since 24 years, and people really do race you differently when you are in a last race title decider. Nobody wants to be THAT guy people remember for a decade to have decided the title as a bystander. Even if Kubica would have been in Petrovs place, chances are he would have not risked a crash with Alonso in his title race, and would not have defended as hard as usual.

One can have wonderwalls opinion it is reasonable, but unfortunately we will never know how it would have ended since Alonso never tried a serious attempt.

If we turn attention to the last two Races and the last two Qualys we see the usual solid average drives by Alonso again. Which supported the feeling that Alonso while beeing great in his own right, is not able to raise his game or be more 'brave' sorry for lack of better word when it is needed.

[mnmracer]

With how Vettel was flying, the risk versus the payoff for Hamilton would have been too little.

Compare it to yesterday; could Vettel have gotten himself in between Massa and Kobayashi?
Possibly.
Would it have been wise to get stuck between two drivers who were racing that agressive today?
Nope. He was just fine where he was with Alonso dabling outside the podium and only a few spots ahead.
The payoff did not make the risk worth it.

[Kucki]

Agree. Vettel was in a different situation yesterday and had to stay passive / careful, he played it wisely.

[H2H]

LOL at the people trying to spin this drive into a bad thing. Goodbye

Agreed. Abu Dhabi 2010 was not his finest hour under pressure but in this race he did pretty much everything he could. Arguably the pressure was, if his words are true, not on him and in Q3 quite a bit more was possible but one could not have asked for more on race day.

Edited by H2H, 26 November 2012 - 10:23.

[Jejking]

Also I'd like to say that braking much MUCH later than other drivers is impossible because the braking distances are already very small. It's only possible if you're on another compound, got a better car under braking, or have fresher tires (or a combination). The Ferrari was better than the Renault in 2010 for sure but the usage of an older engine compared to a fresh block finished the difference off.

[Desdirodeabike]

Okay, Alonso did OK today and I have no complaints really but "remarkable drives" don't include having your teammate wait and move over for you.

Exactly. Massa drove a far better race yesterday. Alonso made some mistakes as well. But most did, of course. Maybe he got that Abu Dhabi 2010 feeling all over again.