188 replies to this topic

[Crossmax]

You can also argue that by qualifying higher, Seb reduced the risk of getting involved in T1 incidents. So Ferrari can put the blame on Grosjean and Kimi if they want, but had they qualified better those things might not have happened.

[CrucialXtreme]

Alonso's opportunity for the wdc was in Abu Dhabi.

Vettel was handed a penalty putting him at the back of the grid. Alonso then benefited from a safety car closing a 10 second gap to Raikkonen.

With the wdc in his grasp Alonso couldn't hold onto the Lotus. Those seven extra points were what he needed but he didn't get it done.

I think it was a culmination of events, especially Spa, but yes AD was an opportunity missed. Although Fernando simply didn't have the pace to keep up with Kimi. He was too quick. And Vettel had a very good race there, the SC def helped him as well.

But honestly it's kind of pointless looking back at coulda woulda shoulda. It's over. It's done with. Both drivers are deserving but only one can win. Fernando try again next year.

[darkkis]

First Alonso is so sure about championship spouting samurai wisdom, vowing to fight 'till the last race and what happens after the season....

...when he fails, he clinges to random incidencts, forgetting totally other people's misfortune and claiming that the fight was already lost at Spa.

**** logic?

[Bruce]

This is worth a thread? Really?

For the "sour grapes" and "moaner" crowd - I's point out that his statement is NEITHER. It would have been sour grapes or whining if he had said "I deserved the championship! Not vettel!". In fact, his statement is merely a way of stating the fact that you don't "lose" a championship at a single race (as the interviewer no doubt suggested).

Those of you who are acting "incensed" over this comment (and the originator of the thread) are merely kicking the guy when he's down on a pretext that is risible. If Vettel had lost the WDC yesterday, I'm sure he would have pointed to misfortunes in his season (like Valencia) which led to the championship slipping away... would that have been "sour grapes" or "whining"? Of course not. If you who are construing Alonso's remarks as some sort of character flaw, you are indulging in a little bit of petty viciousness that no doubt makes you feel virtuous and a little better about Vettel's WDC...

...and if you need to pick on Alonso to feel good about Vettel's season and WDC, well - it's telling.

[Mc_Silver]

Alonso you have been one of the luckiest driver this season and you are still complaining? Funny..

[krea]

What is your problem? Isn't it true that he lost loads of points in Spa and Suzuka, two races which Vettel won?! Sour grapes my ass, he just tells the facts

He is not the only one who lost points this year.

He was not more unlucky than other driver.

[Bruce]

He is not the only one who lost points this year.

He was not more unlucky than other driver.

Did he suggest he was? No. So what's the problem?

[Bruce]

This whole thread.

Give yourselves a headshake...

[krea]

Did he suggest he was? No. So what's the problem?

sure, read the article

[Mr.Wayne]

"It is a shame because, after such a long season that we really fight in all conditions, we raced 18 races and not 20 - and being second by three points is not a lot. But that is the way it is."

The team boss added that the title had not been lost in Brazil but rather earlier in the season in Belgium and Japan.

"Watch the facts," he told Autosport. "Zero points in two races so we have done what we have done with 18 races.

"The others had 20 - and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."



Dom here is also being pretty creative with his facts...but very predictable in his honesty.

18 races? WOW!!! Impressive Alonso! I am still trying to remember how was that he passed Vettel at Valencia, and how many laps did Sebastian's alternator lasted at Monza...

[motorhead]

This is worth a thread? Really?

For the "sour grapes" and "moaner" crowd - I's point out that his statement is NEITHER. It would have been sour grapes or whining if he had said "I deserved the championship! Not vettel!". In fact, his statement is merely a way of stating the fact that you don't "lose" a championship at a single race (as the interviewer no doubt suggested).

Those of you who are acting "incensed" over this comment (and the originator of the thread) are merely kicking the guy when he's down on a pretext that is risible. If Vettel had lost the WDC yesterday, I'm sure he would have pointed to misfortunes in his season (like Valencia) which led to the championship slipping away... would that have been "sour grapes" or "whining"? Of course not. If you who are construing Alonso's remarks as some sort of character flaw, you are indulging in a little bit of petty viciousness that no doubt makes you feel virtuous and a little better about Vettel's WDC...

...and if you need to pick on Alonso to feel good about Vettel's season and WDC, well - it's telling.

"kicking the guy when he is down" - give me a brake. Guy earns 30mil a year and was 2nd in WDC - he is not actually down is he. Alonso fans keeps surprising how personally these quotes can be taken...

[autosportfan]

Vettel lost in Valencia more than Alonso lost the entire season.

/thread

To me the 2012 DNF-king from winning position was Hamilton.... 16 race calendar ... 100 lost points?

[Gorma]

Alonso you have been one of the luckiest driver this season and you are still complaining? Funny..

Well said. Just yesterday he benefited from the collision between Hulkenberg and Hamilton. That wasn't a technical DNF due to the team. It was those "other drivers", a racing incident. These things happen. Alonso benefited from that accident than any other driver on circuit (points wise that is, money wise it was probably Caterham).

[Bruce]

sure, read the article

I did read the article - I wonder if you did though... the only "controversial" line in it (and I wouldn't construe it as "controversial") is the one negatively framed in the thread opening post. There is not a single point in the article where he suggests that he was more unlucky than anyone else - in fact, if you read the article you will have seen the final line; "There were some strange combinations (in the past season) and I'm not sure we can be this lucky in the future."

If you're slamming Alonso (any of you) for this article, I'd gently suggest that you have an axe to grind, and are grinding it on the slightest of pretexts.

[Bruce]

Well said. Just yesterday he benefited from the collision between Hulkenberg and Hamilton. That wasn't a technical DNF due to the team. It was those "other drivers", a racing incident. These things happen. Alonso benefited from that accident than any other driver on circuit (points wise that is, money wise it was probably Caterham).

...and if you read the article you will find that Alonso DOES know that he was lucky this past season. See the final line.

[William Hunt]

Isn't it true that he lost loads of points in Spa and Suzuka, two races which Vettel won?!

Of course he lost points there but during an entire F1 season you are always bound to lose points somewhere, either because of technical issues or collissions. Regarding the Suzuka crash: that was also a bit Alonso's own fault imho.

But Vettel also lost 2 races because of a defect alternator, he also lost loads of points and in one case (Valencia) Vettel would have won and Alonso ended up winning that race.

[Bruce]

"kicking the guy when he is down" - give me a brake. Guy earns 30mil a year and was 2nd in WDC - he is not actually down is he. Alonso fans keeps surprising how personally these quotes can be taken...

Ah! The thread originator.

I wonder why it is, Motorhead, that you didn't use the full quote? Why is it that you clipped the final sentence from the thought?

"I have a great feeling after 2012."

I guess it would have been hard to suggest that Alonso was exhibiting "sour grapes" if you'd included that little nugget eh?

I'm surprised that you would take the trouble to start a thread based upon a quote that you have edited to suit your bias.

[RealRacing]

I would say facts speak louder: Cars racing with illegal parts, taking other drivers out of the track, underfueling... now those are really dirty tricks, all used by Seb and his team.

Good attempt at using a red herring. When we discuss RBR's potential faults, we'll do. Now, if you care to comment on the subject at hand, I'll be glad to discuss.

[William Hunt]

Ah! The thread originator.

I wonder why it is, Motorhead, that you didn't use the full quote? Why is it that you clipped the final sentence from the thought?

"I have a great feeling after 2012."

I guess it would have been hard to suggest that Alonso was exhibiting "sour grapes" if you'd included that little nugget eh?

I'm surprised that you would take the trouble to start a thread based upon a quote that you have edited to suit your bias.

Very good point. I guess more correct would be to say is that it is not Fernando Alonso who exhibits "sour grapes" but his fans do!

[pUs]

Well, Fernando, you really think that other contenders had everything going as smooth as is could have throughout the season, race after race? Jesus, Alonso is making it very easy not to like him. He gave himself a perfect 10 for his season and pat himself in back and congratuleted himself for being perfect for whole season and said that everyone knows who the best driver was this year...

I am so glad I am not fan of him, because I would be hard pressed to defend him for talking all that self-loving crab.

Edit: I honestly cant understand how anyone can be fan of this whiner, especially when there are drivers like Kimi, Vettel or even Hamilton around, who can accept the defeat and be gracious when winning.

Well said!

[Bruce]

Very good point. I guess more correct would be to say is that it is not Fernando Alonso who exhibits "sour grapes" but his fans do!

Fair enough. Start a thread on THAT then - bit this thread?

Ridiculous. A petty bit of whining by a guy who had to modify the quote to fit his purpose.

[schuey100]

I got my ass handed to me in a competitive sporting event a few weeks ago. Not because my opponent was better or I was bad at what I do but because of a technicality.

This is the first time I've mentioned it. I've been asked about it numerous times and I've just said "got myself whipped, well done to my opponent".

Next event I'm going to go all out and make sure I do my best. Hopefully I win.

What I won't do is start mouthing off about how I'm better, or how I should have won yada yada yada. It's pointless and makes you look like a ****.

[gm914]

Q. (Claudio Nogueira – O Globo) Alonso, please, do you feel more frustrated for not being champion or satisfied having been to the end of the championship?

FA: I'm very satisfied. I think it's very good feeling what I have now. It was very frustrating maybe in Abu Dhabi, feeling, two years ago because we have in our hands and we lost it. It was some kind of frustration there. Here is completely the opposite. I'm so proud and I'm so happy to fight until the last lap with the package we have in hands. That is the best thing for me, to feel proud of myself, it was by far the best season of my career and I will remember this 2012 like some dream season. Obviously we didn't achieve the points to win the title but I won so many things this year: so much respect from everybody.

Why is this thread still running? Obviously agendas here.

[ed24f1]

I love how all the haters are so eager to look for everything Alonso says to make a bash fest of it. He was just analysing where he lost the title and he indeed lost the title in those two weekends. He lost more than 40 points to Vettel there and he missed the WDC by 4 points. Vettel might have won in Suzuka anyway but not starting from the front row is always a concern and who knows what would have happened. Anyway loosing some points by these kind of things is always going to happen, it's only when you have a car like the F2012 that you can't afford not a single bad luck moment.

But the point is Vettel lost far more points through his own bad luck (Valencia, Monza, Abu Dhabi) than Alonso did with these incidents, so it's silly for him to bring it up.

[tarmac]

Why not monza or canada? Silverstone?

[krea]

To me the 2012 DNF-king from winning position was Hamilton.... 16 race calendar ... 100 lost points?

yeah, 2012 was a lost year for Hamilton and Mclaren. They had with some exception the best car this year.

[Bruce]

If you want to hate Alonso, I am sure that there are loads of things that you can hate him for - but - sorry - this "quote" isn't really one of them.

Motorhead, (as stated earlier) has used the quote "selectively" - clipping off the final sentence. The full quote reads thus;

"The championship was not lost here," said Alonso. "The championship was lost when Grosjean flew over my head or when Vettel surprisingly only got a reprimand after qualifying in Japan. I have a great feeling after 2012."

The article from which this quote springs is a decent one and worth reading. I suspect that those who take the time to read it in it's fullness instead of relying upon Motorhead's biased skew on a cherry-picked line will be unlikely to join in the cries of outraged virtue being exhibited by a group of people who will, apparently, use any pretext to slag Alonso.

I'll be bowing out of this thread now, as I really have no wish to contribute anything to it's longevity.

[schubacca]

FA drove his balls off this season.

He gets a pass in my book....

My opinion is that the wind tunnel caused Ferrari's defeat.

[RealRacing]

18 races? WOW!!! Impressive Alonso! I am still trying to remember how was that he passed Vettel at Valencia, and how many laps did Sebastian's alternator lasted at Monza...

Exactly, a DNF is a DNF whether your engine blows or you get hit by someone (or crash into someone). If that's the case, Vettel also had 18 races, but Domenicalli wants to make it sound as if Alonso ALMOST wins the championship having actually ONLY had 18 races to count. And he claims that's a fact...

[CrucialXtreme]

But the point is Vettel lost far more points through his own bad luck (Valencia, Monza, Abu Dhabi) than Alonso did with these incidents, so it's silly for him to bring it up.

Sorry Ed but that's not accurate. Mechanical failure(Mechanical DNF) is not "bad luck". It comes hand in hand with race cars. It is an advantage but its not by luck team x has better reliability than team z.

I'm not making excuses for Fernando, but when he referred to his "bad luck" he was referring to things out of his or the teams control. Obviously Spa was out of his control. And I think Japan was a racing incident in which he was half to blame. So I don't count Japan as bad luck. Spa, most certainly.

The only "bad luck" Seb had was at Brazil, getting spun on the opening lap. The 2 DNF's were mechanical and luck had nothing to do with their failing. Malaysia wasn't "bad luck" either as Seb didn't have to get that close to Narain.

So if an objective person looks at what Alonso said & what he means, it's clear he had a point. People call him "lucky" for benefiting from others problems but I call that smart. He put himself in the right position time & again. The team has said many times they must be perfect & put themselves in the right position should anything go wrong. Has he been lucky, yes. But he's also been skillful in being in best position possible.

Seb is well deserving of the WDC because of winning despite the 2 mechanical DNF's and the Malaysia incident. But they weren't "bad luck". Bad luck is Seb getting spun on the first lap of the Championship race although its clear he came into Senna. Conversely good luck is not getting hit by all of those other cars coming by and not having a mechanical failure after taking such a hard it.

Both drivers got lucky to an extent and both were worthy of the WDC. But there's absolutely no reason to diminish either driver to forward your drivers agenda
*last bit wasn't directed at you Ed )

[krea]

Exactly, a DNF is a DNF whether your engine blows or you get hit by someone (or crash into someone). If that's the case, Vettel also had 18 races, but Domenicalli wants to make it sound as if Alonso ALMOST wins the championship having actually ONLY had 18 races to count. And he claims that's a fact...

and one DNF was the fault of Alonso (Japan)... it's ridiculous

[apoka]

Sorry Ed but that's not accurate. Mechanical failure(Mechanical DNF) is not "bad luck". It comes hand in hand with race cars. It is an advantage but its not by luck team x has better reliability than team z.

I see your point. With the alternator, however, it is a bit of a corner case as it does not have an influence on performance and is used across several teams. I guess you can see it both ways in that case (but ultimately it doesn't matter much as it is just about how to "classify" that kind of problem).

[jk]

In that case a first corner shunt is not bad luck, because Alonso could just have qualified better.

[Kingshark]

In that case a first corner shunt is not bad luck, because Alonso could just have qualified better.

Which he probably would have if it wasn't for Vettel.

[Mr.Wayne]

In that case a first corner shunt is not bad luck, because Alonso could just have qualified better.

Or not forced Kimi off track, just to chop him a fraction of a second later...

[CrucialXtreme]

I see your point. With the alternator, however, it is a bit of a corner case as it does not have an influence on performance and is used across several teams. I guess you can see it both ways in that case (but ultimately it doesn't matter much as it is just about how to "classify" that kind of problem).

Right, I agree. I mean its not Sebs fault it failed but obviously reliability is something that teams work hard at. So unless one can say a team lucks into good reliability I'm not sure you can call it unlucky when reliability is poor.

Difficult subject for sure mate. Again you can see I'm not here to make excuses for Fer not denigrate Seb. Just to try and keep things as factual as possible.

[F1Champion]

To me the 2012 DNF-king from winning position was Hamilton.... 16 race calendar ... 100 lost points?

[KnucklesAgain]

Pathetic thread.
Bruce & Crucial

[D.M.N.]

This thread is going nowhere constructive. Closed.