21 replies to this topic

[Kristian]

I was thinking after the race last night how the last 10 years of F1 might have been had Adrian Newey joined Jaguar in 2001 and not stayed with McLaren?

The main point would be that would they have been more successful, therefore not pulled out in 2004 to let Red Bull join the fray? Or if so would Red Bull have bought a team such as Jordan/Midland/Skyper in the midfield with the British-based factory and they would now be enjoying the current successes?

Or would the organisation, engines, technical team, tyres, etc. have precluded Newey's designs from having any success and he might have moved somewhere else, e.g. Ferrari?

Or would they have sold up anyway and the course of history would have been the same, just maybe Red Bull would have had success earlier?

Or am I being too generous on him for being the main factor of Red Bull's success in the last few years? Obvioulsy Christan Horner has a lot of credit due for bringing it all together (with the aids of Dieter's millions), but don't forget his job seemed under threat for a while before 2009 due to the lack of results.

Obviously if Adrian had moved that year, I don't think it would have had any direct influence on Ferrari's dominance in the early 2000s - even his McLarens couldn't beat them, or Renault in 2005. And I think whichever team Red Bull bought they would have gone for him, so I think they would still be where they are now, but their base team might have been one of the likes of the current Force India set up or maybe Sauber.

Any thoughts??

[ensign14]

I dunno, let's ask the four-time world champion David Coulthard.

[tifosiMac]

I dunno, let's ask the four-time world champion David Coulthard.

Hahaha quite.

The recent regulations have suited Newey so the period before would likely have been much the same. If anything Jaguar had less money to throw at F1 in comparison to McLaren and Red Bull.

[garoidb]

I dunno, let's ask the four-time world champion David Coulthard.

I thought Eddie Irvine!

[DutchQuicksilver]

Silly topic. Newey didn't bring any succes to McLaren after 2001, so what makes you think he could have brought it to Jaguar?

[sblick]

I was thinking Bobby Rahal would be the genius for hiring him instead of Christian Horner. Rahal would be known as one of the great team principals. How much would McLaren be missing him? Would Ferrari been able to poach him away? Would Ford have sold Jaguar if it was on a string of World Championships? It is endless of what ifs.

[bonneville]

Rahal would have succeeded in selling Irvine to Jordan and would have hired Dario Franchitti to replace him.
Remember: http://www.grandprix...ns/ns03927.html

[BRG]

I think that the dead hand of the Board of the Ford Motor Company would still have f**ked up anything that Newey could have managed to achieve. Major corporations can't cope with maverick individualists.

[Tenmantaylor]

The OP assumes Newey can work miracles without other key technical people being in place or the team having loads of money. There was a reason Newey didn't join Jaguar after all, he probably knew it wasn't the right time. Once RB took over, it was. And the rest is history.

[wj_gibson]

Silly topic. Newey didn't bring any succes to McLaren after 2001, so what makes you think he could have brought it to Jaguar?

Maybe, but he was evidently bored at McLaren and I doubt his mid-2000s cars were designed with much enthusiasm, tbh. I've always thought that if an employee of an organisation wants to leave to the extent that Newey did then a generous counter-offer is only really a way of wasting money.

[seahawk]

Byrne would not built worse cars at Ferrari, nor would the Renaults be any worse.

[Sabre1977]

The rebulls of 2007 and 2008 even did not win a grand prix.... ( Or only one, if we consider the STR ...)

For me the new regulations of 2009 make the real difference....

[August]

With Newey, Jaguar could've become a top team. But it would've taken time, just like it took time at RBR. '09 reg changes enabled RBR to catch the top teams faster than they would've otherwise catched. And as there were no major regulation changes at that time, tít would've possibly taken a long time for Jaguar to get to top. And Ford could've already pulled off the plug by then.

[rookie]

cars aredesigned by more than one man, if he had of gone to Jag in 01 would for example the 05 Mclaren he ended up designing have been the one he designed for Jag in 05?

would he have tired of no sucess and run back to McLaren, designing for them ultimatley the rb6/7/8/9 but with a mercedes engine and vodafone paintscheme?

In the spirit the question seems to be intended - i think Newey does best when rules change, so Jag/RBR would have been right up there in 05, but probably no where before that. it took him 4 years to get going when he moved for real so i doubt it would have been different in this scenario.

[UPRC]

Would have been nice if Newey had joined Jaguar. I doubt that he would have made them a title winning team too quickly, but he surely would have helped them score more points and possibly stick around longer. I really do miss those Jaguars, they were sleek looking cars.

[Tenmantaylor]

Maybe, but he was evidently bored at McLaren and I doubt his mid-2000s cars were designed with much enthusiasm, tbh.

Newey designed McLarens won 25 races in the 2000-2005 period, 10 of which were in 2005 alone, the middest of mid-2000s seasons. How wrong can someone be. Not saying he didn't want to leave McLaren but the stats speak otherwise.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 27 November 2012 - 15:59.

[Risil]

Newey designed McLarens won 25 races in the 2000-2005 period, 10 of which were in 2005 alone, the middest of mid-2000s seasons. How wrong can someone be. Not saying he didn't want to leave McLaren but the stats speak otherwise.

He designed the MP4-18 so enthusiastically it never raced!

[sopa]

It is a good question. It depends on whether Jaguar would have gone further to strengthen the rest of the technical team and team management as well, as only an all-around strong team can win. As we know, it also takes time to build up a strong team.

Maybe 2002-2004 would not have been that much different, especially from front-running point of view. Ferrari would still have been winning and McLaren would still have been solid... or I don't know, they had quite a low in these years anyway. Maybe Jaguar would have been a little bit better.

But the interesting question is indeed about 2005. We had new regulations then and Newey would have had a proper influence. It is fair to guess McLaren wouldn't have been that mighty fast that year. And the car Red Bull ended up with, could have been much faster than it was. Another matter is if the car would have been named Red Bull or Jaguar would have still pulled the plug Honda-style right before coming up with a really good car.

[One]

With Newey, Jaguar could've become a top team. But it would've taken time, just like it took time at RBR. '09 reg changes enabled RBR to catch the top teams faster than they would've otherwise catched. And as there were no major regulation changes at that time, tít would've possibly taken a long time for Jaguar to get to top. And Ford could've already pulled off the plug by then.

Jaguar at the time addressed the responsibility of the top of the order boys very severely, if I recall it right. Might have been the case that if Newey were to join Jaguar at the time, due to lack of immediate success could have costed his position. Newey attempted to move on to race boat design at the time as well, therefore could have been the case that Formula 1 engineering had no cars designed by Newey ever afterwards.

It is all hypothesis, but Jaguar at the period was not an easy place to be.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Webber would have been winning races by 2004.

[V8 Fireworks]

Webber would have been winning races by 2004.

These cars were quite crappy really (and Webber of course providing his usual fairly quick but often inconsistent performances behind the wheel). It is hard to imagine them being so much better even with better designer.

[Red17]

It would have made no difference. Ford was not spending as much money as Red Bull. Newey would have left Jaguar.
And my memory keeps going back to the endless dance of chairs at the top, no stability.