161 replies to this topic

[Kucki]

Interlagos Qualifying:

1:12.987 Massa
1:13.253 Alonso ( + 0.266 )

During the race Massa slowing down and letting Alonso by intentionally.

Austin Qualifying:

1:36.937 Massa
1:37.300 Alonso ( + 0.363 )

During the race Massa not allowed to attack Alonso following behind him to the finish.

By the way in Korea also Massa was just following Alonso not allowed to attack him, which is understandable for Championship reasons. It is just surprising how Massa was able to match and succeed Alonso when Alonso got bigger support from the team and supposed to attack for his third title there at the end. What could be the reason Massa could do such a fine job towards the end of the season?

Please dont let this turn into a ugly fight of words, stay rational.

Edited by Kucki, 27 November 2012 - 08:38.

[krea]

It's not just the last two races.

Massa was on par with him since the summer break.

[Jovanotti]

I think there's an easy explanation: if the car is good, to Massa's liking and Felipe is "in the mood", he will be as close to Alonso as he has been to Räikkönen. If he doesn't like the car or the car is weaker/more difficult, as it was at the beginning of the season, Alonso will excel. Simple as that imho.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

Massa is a competent racer and did an OK job in the second half of the season.

The fact is he is not allowed to race Alonso on equal terms -- for reasons that frankly escapes me, as Alonso is the better racer. Maybe that makes him (Massa) less constant.

Would I be cynical, I'd say he has the same trouble as Kimi did, when Massa was groomed to be the follow-up WDC at Ferrari, but I am not a cynic, so I won't say that...

;-))

[F.M.]

"How did Massa match Alonso" and then showing he outperformed him

[Creepy]

Alonso himself said years ago that Massa was a very good driver and that would beat him from time to time. There isn't really any need to read that much into it.

[MadYarpen]

I think there's an easy explanation: if the car is good, to Massa's liking and Felipe is "in the mood", he will be as close to Alonso as he has been to Räikkönen. If he doesn't like the car or the car is weaker/more difficult, as it was at the beginning of the season, Alonso will excel. Simple as that imho.

My thoughts exactly. However I've heard that he was seeing a psychologist, wonder if this is true.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

My thoughts exactly. However I've heard that he was seeing a psychologist, wonder if this is true.

Isn't that the norm in modern times?

Kidding aside, there is no shame if he does -- and might even do some good, if he has some issues re: the accident in 2009(?)

[BackOnTop]

I think there's an easy explanation: if the car is good, to Massa's liking and Felipe is "in the mood", he will be as close to Alonso as he has been to Räikkönen. If he doesn't like the car or the car is weaker/more difficult, as it was at the beginning of the season, Alonso will excel. Simple as that imho.

Sorry Jovanotti... but what you say is load of rubbish. Let me explain why!

You say:- If the car was difficult: Massa struggled & Alonso Excelled.
Logic says:- If the car evolved to good: Massa Excelled.... but why didn't Alonso SUPER-EXCEL.

Alonso, with Ferrari having ironed out all the problems... is meant to continue his progress as well.

What you are basically trying to say is:-
Massa is rubbish with a sh!t car.
Alonso is sh!t with a good car.

Edited by BackOnTop, 27 November 2012 - 09:42.

[Jovanotti]

What you are basically trying to say is:-
Massa is rubbish with a sh!t car.
Alonso is sh!t with a good car.

No, what I'm trying to say is that a great driver (Alonso in this case) will get more out of the car if it is difficult to drive than a good driver (Massa). If the car is fast and easier to drive, the great driver's skills will be somewhat negated because 1. also the great driver can't exceed the cars limit and 2. the good driver will be able to drive closer to the cars limit. Their performances will become alike the better the car is. My theory.

Edited by Jovanotti, 27 November 2012 - 09:46.

[Linther]

Sorry Jovanotti... but what you say is load of rubbish. Let me explain why!

You say:- If the car was difficult: Massa struggled & Alonso Excelled.
Logic says:- If the car evolved to good: Massa Excelled.... but why didn't Alonso SUPER-EXCEL.

Alonso, with Ferrari having ironed out all the problems... is meant to continue his progress as well.

What you are basically trying to say is:-
Massa is rubbish with a sh!t car.
Alonso is sh!t with a good car.

No, I think what he meant was:
No one can exceed the limits of a car. However, if the car is difficult to drive there may be differences in the degree, to which the drivers can exploit the car's potential. If the car is not to Massa's liking he struggles, if it is, he is on par with Alonso. Alonso can cope better with a car less to his liking, so he looks way better as long as the car is difficult to drive. The Ferrari has become easier to drive for Massa over the season so by now he can exploit it's potential as good as Aloso, or better.

Sorry Jovanotti you beat me to it

Edited by Linther, 27 November 2012 - 09:56.

[sv401]

No, what I'm trying to say is that a great driver (Alonso in this case) will get more out of the car if it is difficult to drive than a good driver (Massa). If the car is fast and easier to drive, the great driver's skills will be somewhat negated because 1. also the great driver can't exceed the cars limit and 2. the good driver will be able to drive closer to the cars limit. Their performances will become alike the better the car is. My theory.

The problem with the theory is that Alonso's performance/results did not improve at all after the summer break (when Massa made a big step forward), if anything, he was more impressive from Barcelona to Hockenheim. If Massa's improvement is entirely down to a "better car", one would expect Alonso to improve too, even if not to the same extent, but it did not happen. Or do you suggest that the upgrades actually made the car slightly worse, but more to Massa's liking (I do not know why the team would have done that, though) ?

Edited by sv401, 27 November 2012 - 10:00.

[velgajski1]

The problem with the theory is that Alonso's performance/results did not improve at all after the summer break (when Massa made a big step forward), if anything, he was more impressive from Barcelona to Hockenheim. If Massa's improvement is entirely down to a "better car", one would expect Alonso to improve too, even if not to the same extent, but it did not happen. Or do you suggest that the upgrades actually made the car slightly worse, but more to Massa's liking (I do not know why the team would have done that, though) ?

I think with Massa it was combination of factors and he was definitely underperforming from mid 2010-mid 2012. I think that 'Fernando is faster than you' was huge psychological blow after coming back from serious injury. Also, Massa was always a fast driver, it was his racecraft that separated him from best guys out there. But combine car/tyres not suiting his style with low morale because of playing Fernandos lapdog, add his fairly poor racecraft and you have what you have. Possibly the need to improve or get fired is what forced him to improve and at least be good at what he used to be good before - fast on clear track.

Edited by velgajski1, 27 November 2012 - 10:09.

[EvanRainer]

Massa only seemed faster in the last two races. I don't agree about Korea, Massa was never threatening, Alonso was conserving tyres.

[Jovanotti]

The problem with the theory is that Alonso's performance/results did not improve at all after the summer break (when Massa made a big step forward), if anything, he was more impressive from Barcelona to Hockenheim. If Massa's improvement is entirely down to a "better car", one would expect Alonso to improve too, even if not to the same extent, but it did not happen. Or do you suggest that the upgrades actually made the car slightly worse, but more to Massa's liking (I do not know why the team would have done that, though) ?

Well Alonso still was well ahead except for the last two races. I don't see the problem with my theory 'cause I think speedwise Massa is as good as anyone if he has the car and can lead from the front (see 2007/08). As velgajski said, his poor racecraft when fighting in the pack or facing other difficulties seperates him from the top crop.

[Goron3]

The problem with the theory is that Alonso's performance/results did not improve at all after the summer break (when Massa made a big step forward), if anything, he was more impressive from Barcelona to Hockenheim. If Massa's improvement is entirely down to a "better car", one would expect Alonso to improve too, even if not to the same extent, but it did not happen. Or do you suggest that the upgrades actually made the car slightly worse, but more to Massa's liking (I do not know why the team would have done that, though) ?

Well after the summer break, the car was never 'bad', it just got overtaken in the development race. Since Silverstone Massa has been fine, just with the odd blip here and there unfortunately.

[Headspin]

There's always much more than we see. In the beginning of the season they had more difficulties with the car so Massa had to try more different things in practices thus compromising his own set up programme. Or maybe the car just didn't suit him at all and fix for that wasn't Ferrari's priority numero uno so it took almost the whole season to fix it. Field was really tight early in the season so his relatively poor racecraft compared to Alonso magnified problems.

[MadYarpen]

Isn't that the norm in modern times?

Kidding aside, there is no shame if he does -- and might even do some good, if he has some issues re: the accident in 2009(?)

Well I'm not saying it is a shame. If it works for him, than great.
And I don't remember where it comes from, maybe from Sky commentary, but I understood the psychologist is because of some issues. I'd say not necessarily connected to the accident, but maybe even caused by so clear number 2 status.

[noikeee]

This has to be the biggest enigma of the season - I've NEVER seen the form of a driver fluctuate so much within a season. He went from being clearly deserving of the sack, finishing constantly 7 or 8 places behind his team-mate (when not even worse than that), to looking slightly quicker than the best driver in the grid.

I think his confidence was shattered and there was some underlying technical issue as well - feel for the tyres, car setup, something. Once the car and tyres started to become more into his liking, he just grew and grew in confidence, starting from an absolute all-time low.

Bizarre. I'd love to read some insider info into this, but I imagine we won't get the full story for years.

[sv401]

Well Alonso still was well ahead except for the last two races. I don't see the problem with my theory 'cause I think speedwise Massa is as good as anyone if he has the car and can lead from the front (see 2007/08). As velgajski said, his poor racecraft when fighting in the pack or facing other difficulties seperates him from the top crop.

The fact still remains that the gap between the Ferrari drivers shrunk dramatically, but only Massa's qualifying and race results improved, which contradicts the "car was a dog in the first half of the season, but much better starting from Spa" theory.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

This has to be the biggest enigma of the season - I've NEVER seen the form of a driver fluctuate so much within a season. He went from being clearly deserving of the sack, finishing constantly 7 or 8 places behind his team-mate (when not even worse than that), to looking slightly quicker than the best driver in the grid.

I think his confidence was shattered and there was some underlying technical issue as well - feel for the tyres, car setup, something. Once the car and tyres started to become more into his liking, he just grew and grew in confidence, starting from an absolute all-time low.

Bizarre. I'd love to read some insider info into this, but I imagine we won't get the full story for years.

Let me paste here my earlier line:

Would I be cynical, I'd say he has the same trouble as Kimi did, when Massa was groomed to be the follow-up WDC at Ferrari, but I am not a cynic, so I won't say that...

Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 27 November 2012 - 10:33.

[sv401]

Well after the summer break, the car was never 'bad', it just got overtaken in the development race. Since Silverstone Massa has been fine, just with the odd blip here and there unfortunately.

The point is that it did not become better after the summer break (unless Alonso's performance also became worse at the same time), so that is not why Massa improved so much.

Edited by sv401, 27 November 2012 - 10:36.

[Gyan]

Maybe he hit rock bottom, but then Ferrari offered a new deal and he gained his mojo and belief back, which led to better performances gradually. He's nowhere near as bad as his performances were at the start of the season so as I see it, he's just returning to his early 2010 self gradually.

[Wander]

The point is that it did not become better after the summer break (unless Alonso's performance also became worse at the same time), so that is not why Massa improved so much.

I think it must have become better. Just not in comparison to other cars, cause they improved at a similar rate. Massa just must have got more comfortable with the car compared to the first half.

I must say that I'm surprised about his shift in form. If he can carry this to the next year, it is going to be very interesting.

[BackOnTop]

Getting Out-Qualified & Out-Raced in treacherous conditions by Massa, yes the same Massa that some out here called "sh!t for 3 years.... sure dispels some myths about who is the best Ferrari driver currently... and who is the best Formula 1 driver overall.

All of a sudden, it looks like Ferrari banked (Santander anyone) on the wrong horse.... who chokes when it matters the most:

2007- Leading the Championship over Kimi Raikkonen in equal cars going into Brazil. Kimi wins the race and the Championship. Choke No.1 by Alonso.
2010- Leading the Championship over Sebastian Vettel going into Abu Dhabi. Cannot overtake Petrov. Choke No.2.
2012- Leading the Championship over Sebastian Vettel by a massive 40 points with 7 races to go. Loses steam & performance to Massa in Austin & Brazil. Choke No. 3.

There is a very bad pattern emerging here for Alonso. Other Ferrari drivers performance in recent Championship years (attention must be given to Win) :

2006- MSC was winning the race, & most probably the championship until car trouble in Japan.
2007- Kimi Raikkonen needed to win the race, and he promptly delivers maximum performance. Wins WDC because Mclaren drivers are not steely enough.
2008- Felipe Massa needed to win the race, and he promptly delivers maximum performance. Loses WDC as Hamilton delivers what was needed by him.

All in all, Alonso fails to deliver in the final round. Not to be trusted if you have to bet your house on it. Iceman, Massa & Vettel have shown to perform at optimum level when the pressure is applied maximum. Maybe Alonso is not fit enough for sustained performance as Martin Brundle pointed out in Abu Dhabi. The observation by MB was that Kimi Raikkonen seemed to be way fitter in his comeback year than Alonso after Abu Dhabi race. Alonso needs to hit the gym more than he hits enter on twitter.

Alonso is a great driver, but I have a feeling Massa will be given more support starting next year @ Ferrari, so Alosno could be on the back foot and feel like the team is conspiring against him!! With good support, Massa will be leading Alonso in points by mid-season if given equal opportunity. But Alonso might thrash the whole field as well... so it's now 50-50 in Ferrari for next season.

Edited by BackOnTop, 27 November 2012 - 11:26.

[Creepy]

Bollocks, but specially this part:

2010- Leading the Championship over Sebastian Vettel going into Abu Dhabi. Cannot overtake Petrov. Choke No.2.

Looks like someone forgot that back then there wasn't DRS or how other drivers (Hamilton) had constant excursions off-track trying to overtake Petrov too. I guess Alonso didn't want to risk it that way resulting in an accident. I also remember Webber and Massa having it incredibly hard to overtake way slower cars in such track.

Edited by Creepy, 27 November 2012 - 11:35.

[Jejking]

Massa and Smedley took another route down setup lane. That explains a lot.

[BackOnTop]

Massa and Smedley took another route down setup lane. That explains a lot.

It only explains why Alonso couldn't manage to take the same route down setup lane.... of making his car faster as well.

Maybe Alonso lacks Setup skills... no wonder the prancing horse has been turning out to be donkeys under Alonso watch. He needs to pay more attention to his own details then politics & attacking other "great driver" on the grid constantly. He loses focus in his personal games & politics... al the time.

To top it all, Alonso claimed that 8th was Maximum for the Ferrari car... which is on face value... a big fat lie as Massa was 3 steps ahead of him on the grid.

Edited by BackOnTop, 27 November 2012 - 11:52.

[karne]

I remember reading an interview with Professor Sid Watkins, who was talking about Karl Wendlenger, and saying that common neuromedical opinion was that it often took around two to three years for a patient to return to their pre-accident status after a serious head injury. It would not surprise me if Massa was still shaking off after-effects of that crash even as late as early this year.

[John Player]

I have no idea but i hope he keeps his form next year, it would be fun to see 2 competitive ferraris.

[Kucki]

Bollocks, but specially this part:



Looks like someone forgot that back then there wasn't DRS or how other drivers (Hamilton) had constant excursions off-track trying to overtake Petrov too. I guess Alonso didn't want to risk it that way resulting in an accident. I also remember Webber and Massa having it incredibly hard to overtake way slower cars in such track.

Alonso didnt even try a serious outbreaking attempt on Petrov. BackonTop makes some very good points. A pattern is emerging that Alonso cannot really deliver when the pressure is at the maximum. In maximum pressure situation he refers back to what he does best: Beeing extremely consistant. He does not like taking big risks and prefers to stay in his comfort zone. Your not going to see a unsave move from him on an opponent or an all out attack hotlap. Its not his driving style. He is the brilliance in consistancy, but in situations like interlagos 07, abu dhabi 10, austin 12 or interlagos 12 that does hinder him taking it to the next level. His drives there appeared pretty average.

Edited by Kucki, 27 November 2012 - 12:06.

[Sabre1977]

Alonso didnt even try a serious outbreaking attempt on Petrov. BackonTop makes some very good points. A pattern is emerging that Alonso cannot really deliver when the pressure is at the maximum. In maximum pressure situation he refers back to what he does best: Beeing extremely consistant. He does not like taking big risks and prefers to stay in his comfort zone. Your not going to see a unsave move from him on an opponent or an all out attack hotlap. Its not his driving style. He is the brilliance in consistancy, but in situations like interlagos 07, abu dhabi 10, austin 12 or interlagos 12 that does hinder him taking it to the next level. His drives there appeared pretty average.

Bullshit!!!

The bolded statement is false, . Alonso even went outside trying to pass Petrov. You can tell Hamilton (For me the best overtaker of the field) if it was easy to pass the other Renault (Kubica).

You did not even take in consideration the relative perfomance of the car driven by Alonso in those races with their oponents.
Interlagos 2007 -> For some reasons (without conspirance theories, an old Engine , for example, than the fresher ones of HAM, RAI and MAS) , not only slower to both ferrari and Lewis, He finished the race almost one minute after Kimi.... (In fact , all we know Kimi was not the deserved winner in this race, but some people seems to forget determinated facts if the driver is not Alonso.....)
Abu Dhabi 2010 -> For some strange reason , The other title contender (Mark Webber) can´t overtake the car in front of him in all the race (And it was the "underperforming" Alonso).... with the best car of the grid.
Interlagos 2012 -> There is no need to comment the difference in perfomance between McLaren and Ferrari in this race. The fastest ferrari in interlagos was Massa, and he can´t be even close in lap times with the McLarens or Hulkenberg´s Force India.

I don´t know if Kimi fans only hate alonso for being a Ferrari driver, or for destroying the same teammate that have been looked so competitive when he was raikkonen teammate....

Edited by Sabre1977, 27 November 2012 - 12:36.

[rookie]

Alonso didnt even try a serious outbreaking attempt on Petrov. BackonTop makes some very good points. A pattern is emerging that Alonso cannot really deliver when the pressure is at the maximum. In maximum pressure situation he refers back to what he does best: Beeing extremely consistant. He does not like taking big risks and prefers to stay in his comfort zone. Your not going to see a unsave move from him on an opponent or an all out attack hotlap. Its not his driving style. He is the brilliance in consistancy, but in situations like interlagos 07, abu dhabi 10, austin 12 or interlagos 12 that does hinder him taking it to the next level. His drives there appeared pretty average.

Seb was outqualified 3-2 by Webber in the last 5 races this year, had an adventure in abu dhabi that included contact with other cars, running off the road under SC, plus on top of that had a bad start and was a bit average during the start and first corners in Brazil. should we call him a choker too?

I think they all tighten up a bit on the run in to a championship, Hamilton's 5th place in 08 was hardly super aggresive.

Don't see what Alonso could have done differntly in 2010 decider, or 07 for that matter, the ferraris dominated that weekend, mclaren was nowhere.

I thought his 2012 Brazil effort was decent, mark him down for qualy sure, but i can't see what was wrong with the race. diving down the inside of 2 cars at turn 1 on a damp track is hardly choking is it.

[molive]

How did Massa beat Alonso in the last 2 deciding races?

A = by getting his mojo back

Seriously, I think it was a mix of technical and psychological enhancements. Getting the setup right with Smedley and also seing a psychologist to get over whatever was holding him back.

Hope to see more of the good old Felipe in march 2013!

[August]

How Massa was better than Alonso in the last races?

Just like how Alonso was better until then. By driving faster.

[Sabre1977]

How Massa was better than Alonso in the last races?

Just like how Alonso was better until then. By driving faster.

As simple as that

[LiJu914]

How Massa was better than Alonso in the last races?

Just like how Alonso was better until then. By driving faster.

No no no, some black magic has to play a part in that...

[selespeed]

massa beat alonso in quali...in races...not really...

[LiJu914]

massa beat alonso in quali...in races...not really...

Not really.

[Risil]

It only explains why Alonso couldn't manage to take the same route down setup lane.... of making his car faster as well.

How do you think one "makes the car faster"? It involves actual mechanical or aerodynamic changes, which in themselves only affect the car's characteristics, not its laptime.

Alonso's race pace iirc was not particularly deficient compared to anyone in 2012. Gary Anderson explained in a BBC column (I'm simplifying here, so apologies) that Ferrari never really figured out how to get the most out of the car in DRS-open qualifying trim. It caused horrendous turn-in oversteer that Alonso couldn't stand. Perhaps Massa and his team found a setup that allowed him to drive around it better. FM is one of the best and there will be some things that he can do better than anyone.

It seems after Abu Dhabi Pat Fry pointed out Alonso's inability to drive around that particular weakness of the F2012, and Fernando responded in his own inimitable way and nearly tore a door off. (Of course you can call all of that blame-shifting, but it highlights how closely wedded the performance of the driver and the design team are.)

Everyone's different and every car is different, so getting consistent results is a matter of adapting to problems like this. Vettel's was arguably more severe, that his Red Bull was apparently not competitive if it didn't get away in the lead of a race. Alonso's genius this year was turning poor qualifying performances into frequently astounding results. Think Malaysia, or Valencia, or Monza, or his run of podium finishes at the end of the year from third/fourth row grid slots.

But that failure to find a solution to his qualifying problems was a huge obstacle for any performance gains. You can't win from 8th every time out, especially not when Vettel's sitting on the front row. Massa's apparent setup breakthrough in the last few races is interesting because it suggests there was something in Fry's criticism of Alonso after all. Whether you want to put Vettel's championship win down to Alonso's shortcomings or Ferrari's failure to keep up with Mclaren and Red Bull's DRS/diffuser development is probably a matter of personal preference.

[Wander]

massa beat alonso in quali...in races...not really...

Massa was easily faster in the Austin race and probably in Brazil too. He was also faster or equally fast in a couple of other races, but in those he had qualified worse.

[BackOnTop]

Bullshit!!!

Alonso finished the race almost one minute after Kimi.... (In fact , all we know Kimi was not the deserved winner in this race, but some people seems to forget determinated facts if the driver is not Alonso.....)

That statement of yours makes Alonso looks like the worst "choke" driver in history hahaha.

After a thrashing like that given to Alonso in equal fast cars, I don't see how it can be determined Kimi wasn't deserving. Maybe 2 minutes would do it for you... but unfortunately... Kimi started to cruise at the end. Sorry about that lol.

Edited by BackOnTop, 27 November 2012 - 13:04.

[Risil]

Seb was outqualified 3-2 by Webber in the last 5 races this year, had an adventure in abu dhabi that included contact with other cars, running off the road under SC, plus on top of that had a bad start and was a bit average during the start and first corners in Brazil. should we call him a choker too?

Braking so early at Turn 4 (just before he turned in on Senna) that Raikkonen had to swerve off the road to avoid him was a telling moment. He was being ultra-cautious, which was justified given that they were driving round a wet track on slicks. But everyone else, who had less to lose than Vettel, managed better (or crashed).

I think they all tighten up a bit on the run in to a championship, Hamilton's 5th place in 08 was hardly super aggresive.

Michael Schumacher's instances of "tightening up" are as legendary as his successes. As he himself pointed out when talking about Seb's 6th place on Sunday. I have a suspicion that Raikkonen is immune but that's about it.

[prty]

When did he die?

In the mind of his fanboys, when he got shacked from Ferrari to make room for Alonso. They want to avenge his death

[selespeed]

Massa was easily faster in the Austin race and probably in Brazil too. He was also faster or equally fast in a couple of other races, but in those he had qualified worse.

faster in quali...took a shot for the team...started on the clean side of the track...made a good start and...ran off the road...before the pits he ran very fast and combined with alonsos slow pitstop emarged right behind him...and....ran of the road...the gap going to over 10 sec...

[Sabre1977]

After a thrashing like that given to Alonso in equal fast cars, I don't see how it can be determined Kimi wasn't deserving. Maybe 2 minutes would do it for you... but unfortunately... Kimi started to cruise at the end. Sorry about that lol.

I can´t imagine how do you get the conclusion that i was refering to Alonso.
I suppose that is hard when the fanboysm blinds your eyes, making impossible to understand a simple statement . All the people could see that the deserved winner of Interlagos 2007 was Felipe Massa.

That statement of yours makes Alonso looks like the worst "choke" driver in history hahaha.

It´s very strange to judge a driver based on the statements made by his fans (although I´m not an Alonso fan , instead of I´m a Ferrari fan since memorial ages...). I only hope people don´t judge Kimi based on fans like you.

Edited by Sabre1977, 27 November 2012 - 13:46.

[FerrariFanInTexas]

Maybe it's down to the tires. The last several races the tires were consistent and apparently long-lasting. He may lack the car feel to nurse them which was so necessary earlier this year when the tires were a complete lottery.

[aditya-now]

Massa and Smedley took another route down setup lane. That explains a lot.

Details? Link?

[Jovanotti]

To bring some factual information to the thread, here are some numbers to compare the qualy-performances before and after the summer break (if you got anything to add or to correct, feel free to do it (numbers are just quickly calculated, race selection/exclusion may not be entirely comprehensive)..).

Before summerbreak:

-Avg. starting position FA: 6.36
-Avg. starting position FM: 11.81

-Fernando was -0.42 faster than Felipe on their respective best quali-attempt

-Avg. gap faster Ferrari pilot - polesitter: 0.72

(races excluded: Bahrain (Alonso no time in Q3), Germany (changing conditions Q2 - Q3))

After summerbreak:

-Avg. starting position FA: 6.77
-Avg. starting position FM: 8.22

-Fernando was -0.26 faster than Felipe on their respective best quali-attempt

-Avg. gap faster Ferrari pilot - polesitter: 0.8

(races excluded: Monza (tech failure for Alonso))

Draw the conclusions yourself, only thing I can say that the numbers somewhat contradict my theory at the beginning of the thread (better car = FM closer to FA). Maybe we can just say Massa is more sensitive to the car, or it's as said just down to the tyres.

Oh, and yeah:

Maybe Alonso lacks Setup skills...

In the mind of his fanboys, when he got shacked from Ferrari to make room for Alonso. They want to avenge his death

Alonso needs to hit the gym more than he hits enter on twitter.

I only hope people don´t judge Kimi based on fans like you.

I think the thread started out very objective and fair from all sides. We really don't need this kind of sh** here now.

Edited by Jovanotti, 27 November 2012 - 14:09.

[sheepgobba]

In Austin Fernando raced with a different Diffuser to Felipe which later appeared in hindsight Felipe's choice was clearly better due to his pace during the race. However, I am not stating this was the reason for Massa's emergence or sole reason for his pace over Fernando. However, it's one of the reason's that allowed Felipe to excel in Austin. Nonetheless, I think Felipe tends to do reasonably well at newer circuits when the car is decent (Singapore 2008) and has generally raced well at his home circuit.