34 replies to this topic

[drunkenmaster]

There seems to be some different interpretations about what's a dirty trick and what's not a dirty trick. Many people seem to think that a fake gearbox change isn't a dirty trick at all, and are angry with Vettel for calling it so.

So if Red Bull had done the same thing in Brazil as Ferrari had done in the USA, what would you call it? Everything fine or a "dirty trick"?

Please think about it and be honest in your choices.

I'd really be interested in knowing if people have the same leniency and understanding towards Red Bull, than they have for Ferrari, when it comes to "tricks".

[Zava]

my opinion would've been the same as about the ferrari one: definitely a legal and logical decision, but a smelly one as well.

[EvanRainer]

First of all, I don't even think this is specifically what Vettel and RBR were referring to.

It was everything from technical rows and crying to the stewards and getting bullshit penalties to fueling rumours about Vettel having signed for Ferrari

[drunkenmaster]

my opinion would've been the same as about the ferrari one: definitely a legal and logical decision, but a smelly one as well.

Yes, exactly my opinion, and that's IMO a "dirty trick". It's not something illegal, Vettel didn't say that, but bending the rules in some smelly way for which they weren't designed.

[MrPodium]

Yes, exactly my opinion, and that's IMO a "dirty trick". It's not something illegal, Vettel didn't say that, but bending the rules in some smelly way for which they weren't designed.

You mean like flexible wings, or dodgy engine maps, for example?

[Clatter]

my opinion would've been the same as about the ferrari one: definitely a legal and logical decision, but a smelly one as well.

This, but as Ferrari had already pulled the trick and it would have been just deserts if it adversely affected them. I just hope the FIA close this loophole.

[drunkenmaster]

You mean like flexible wings, or dodgy engine maps, for example?

Many teams use some sort of flexi wing. It's just that RB has the best one. Can't blame them for that...

[spacekid]

I honestly don't see a problem with any team doing this. If the loophole got closed I wouldn't be that bothered either, but while its there why not?

[wingwalker]

I honestly don't see a problem with any team doing this. If the loophole got closed I wouldn't be that bothered either, but while its there why not?

Because it's done for purpose of gaining advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which shouldn't be possible in any form. Also, it's so unfair to other drivers and teams it just stinks, but that my personal opinion.

[Buttoneer]

This, but as Ferrari had already pulled the trick and it would have been just deserts if it adversely affected them. I just hope the FIA close this loophole.

How do you think they might do this? Remember that seals have been broken by accident in transit so anything which tries to look for a 'genuine' mechanical error in order to avoid, say, double punishment needs to take that into account.

I honestly can't think of anything that would help.

[spacekid]

Because it's done for purpose of gaining advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which shouldn't be possible in any form. Also, it's so unfair to other drivers and teams it just stinks, but that my personal opinion.

I've always seen pushing the boundaries of competition as a central part of F1. I quite enjoy when teams do things like flexi wings or flexi floors or exploit other ideas that may not be within the spirit of the rules, but none the less they find are permitted. Its gone on forever in motorsport. To me this is just an extension of that. As I said if this loophole were to be closed that would be fine too, but while it was there Ferrari had a championship to try to win. I thought they were quite clever.

I've always seen F1 as more of a competition between companies than a sport, so maybe thats the difference.

[Baddoer]

Rubber gearbox? I'll take two.

[Clatter]

How do you think they might do this? Remember that seals have been broken by accident in transit so anything which tries to look for a 'genuine' mechanical error in order to avoid, say, double punishment needs to take that into account.

I honestly can't think of anything that would help.

Difficult one, but one has to assume the seals were OK the day before and should not be tampered with overnight. Just apply Occam's razor.

[August]

I wouldn't say Ferrari did a dirty trick in USA, they just exploited the rules well. What I didn't like was their arrogant behaviour after race. Had RBR instead of Ferrari done the same in Austin and behaved as arrogantly, I would've had quite the same reaction. And what if RBR had done that in Brazil? I wouldn't have disliked it that much, Ferrari already started the practise.

[MonacoMaster]

How do you think they might do this? Remember that seals have been broken by accident in transit so anything which tries to look for a 'genuine' mechanical error in order to avoid, say, double punishment needs to take that into account.

I honestly can't think of anything that would help.

Maybe they could make the car start from the pits and leave it's grid slot empty?

[RealRacing]

Same as what Ferrari did: legal only because no one had thought about outlawing it yet, but unethical. Probably illegal too starting next season.

[Sakae]

Difficult one, but one has to assume the seals were OK the day before and should not be tampered with overnight. Just apply Occam's razor.

Another way to avoid guessing - remove the regulatory restriction altogether (which is a sore point with a lot of people anyway), and/or impose death sentence upon TP, if the word ever comes out that team has pulled a such trick deliberately. Maybe next time people will think about it more.

[itsademo]

such manipulation of the rules clearly is against the ideals of fair sport.
But worse is Ferrari did it in the most stupid way possible they only broke a seal thus they did not even give massa the benefit of a new gearbox only the penalty.

[Wolf]

I don't think the two examples (flexi wings & breaking seals) are comparable. Flexi wings and similar stuff are intended to circumvent the rules and make your car faster (presumably, for both drivers). I do not frown much upon that way of thinking. I do not appreciate much the second way of thinking, only because it may be legit but it's gaining advantage for one at the expense of other of your drivers (esp. since it's usually don at the expense of 2nd driver, who's finally had his day and beaten the driver no. 1, only to have the team pull the 'dirty trick' on him and take his hard earned position away).

[Buttoneer]

I don't think the two examples (flexi wings & breaking seals) are comparable.

That's not really what's under discussion. The OP is essentially asking if we're all hypocrites, but the poll sadly lacks reference.

[drunkenmaster]

I honestly don't see a problem with any team doing this. If the loophole got closed I wouldn't be that bothered either, but while its there why not?

So it would be fine for you if every team takes an example from Ferrari, and the whole qualifying results are mixed up totally?

You know, the main reason for Ferrari doing this was to get Alonso on the clean side. Now Red Bull could have changed also Webbers gearbox, and Alonso would have been on the dirty side again. Can't believe that's OK for some people, for me that's not the kind of sport I want to see. They should just accept the quali results, and not decide from the green table who starts from what side.

Because it's done for purpose of gaining advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which shouldn't be possible in any form. Also, it's so unfair to other drivers and teams it just stinks, but that my personal opinion.

That's how I see it!

[paulesko]

I don't think the two examples (flexi wings & breaking seals) are comparable. Flexi wings and similar stuff are intended to circumvent the rules and make your car faster (presumably, for both drivers). I do not frown much upon that way of thinking. I do not appreciate much the second way of thinking, only because it may be legit but it's gaining advantage for one at the expense of other of your drivers (esp. since it's usually don at the expense of 2nd driver, who's finally had his day and beaten the driver no. 1, only to have the team pull the 'dirty trick' on him and take his hard earned position away).

It was a similar scenario in 2010, GB GP, when Vettel broke his front wing (was it twice?) and Red Bull took webbers to put it on Vettel´s car. I think in this case Red Bull action was worse because at that time Vettel and Webber were both fighting for the cahmpionship, and this year Massa was over that battle and his role was very clear due to his performance in prior races.

I didn´t hear Vettel complaining about that one, and team orders were banned, although strictly talking, this is not a team order... anyway, what I mean is that everyone in this sport is going to try ANYTHING withing the rules, or bending te rules in order to win.

[aditya-now]

There seems to be some different interpretations about what's a dirty trick and what's not a dirty trick. Many people seem to think that a fake gearbox change isn't a dirty trick at all, and are angry with Vettel for calling it so.

So if Red Bull had done the same thing in Brazil as Ferrari had done in the USA, what would you call it? Everything fine or a "dirty trick"?

Please think about it and be honest in your choices.

I'd really be interested in knowing if people have the same leniency and understanding towards Red Bull, than they have for Ferrari, when it comes to "tricks".

The poll is well chosen, drunkenmaster.

60,53% of the people who voted so far think, when Red Bull does it it is no dirty trick, whereas only 39,47% think it is a dirty trick.

Contrast that with Ferrari, when they do it the whole world is in uproar...

[paulesko]

Because it's done for purpose of gaining advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which shouldn't be possible in any form. Also, it's so unfair to other drivers and teams it just stinks, but that my personal opinion.

It´s like Red Bull braking "parc ferme" rule to take an advantage when Vettel was penalized to 22th this year. I think any team would have done the same... I don´t understand why all this fuss about a gearbox fake change everyone does this kind of things

[schuey100]

I thought what Ferrari did was despicable and one of the worst things I have seen in F1.

It's not even about gaining advantage through exploitation of the rules, I didn't actually mind Austria 2002 for example, it was within the rules and fair play but this was different, this was tampering with other people's races, affecting other drivers who had performed well to get a grid slot. the racing hadn't even started. What if some random driver with no stake in the title race had got pole and decided to do the same thing which then moved Alonso onto the dirty side. Would that have been okay?

I find the thought that a team and or driver would manipulate the rules which then harmed other teams before the race has even started reprehensible.

And I don't care who does it. It's wrong. If they want to switch drivers mid race then fine, if they want to play games in the pits then fine but teams below them are fighting for points, some for survival and they could and may have caused severe consequences for those teams/drivers.

Ferrari should be about racing. About speed. That's the history of Ferrari. Not tricks to harm teams even before the race has started.

[spacekid]

So it would be fine for you if every team takes an example from Ferrari, and the whole qualifying results are mixed up totally?

As long as the rules stand as they are, then yeah sure. Its just a case of a team using whats available to them to maximise their result. Nothing new there.

You've asked for honest opinion - why get so upset when you get one?

Edited by spacekid, 27 November 2012 - 16:43.

[Atreiu]

Blocking and/or trying to force other cars into illegal moves during practice sessions to result in grid penalties are dirty in my book.
Intentional gearbox changes aren't dirty.

[choyothe]

It was a similar scenario in 2010, GB GP, when Vettel broke his front wing (was it twice?) and Red Bull took webbers to put it on Vettel´s car. I think in this case Red Bull action was worse because at that time Vettel and Webber were both fighting for the cahmpionship, and this year Massa was over that battle and his role was very clear due to his performance in prior races.

I didn´t hear Vettel complaining about that one, and team orders were banned, although strictly talking, this is not a team order... anyway, what I mean is that everyone in this sport is going to try ANYTHING withing the rules, or bending te rules in order to win.

1) The FW broke itself

2) Webber didn't find it better and didn't find time with it, Vettel did.

Otherwise you remember correctly.

[drunkenmaster]

As long as the rules stand as they are, then yeah sure. Its just a case of a team using whats available to them to maximise their result. Nothing new there.

You've asked for honest opinion - why get so upset when you get one?

How do you get the idea that i'm upset??

I've used no expletives, no angry emoticons, just asked a question...

[drunkenmaster]

1) The FW broke itself

2) Webber didn't find it better and didn't find time with it, Vettel did.

Otherwise you remember correctly.

In fact Webber didn't want it - until Vettel lost his own and had use for it...;)

[wingwalker]

It´s like Red Bull braking "parc ferme" rule to take an advantage when Vettel was penalized to 22th this year. I think any team would have done the same... I don´t understand why all this fuss about a gearbox fake change everyone does this kind of things

I don't see it that way at all. Anyone knows you can break parc ferme rules and what the penalty is and it was done before. Ferrari intentionally wanted to get a penalty because punishment was a reward for them, it's a different tame.

[paulesko]

1) The FW broke itself

2) Webber didn't find it better and didn't find time with it, Vettel did.

Otherwise you remember correctly.

1. Are you saying that the FW exploded or something. I thought it was Veetel who broke it, while crashing.

2. If that is true, why was Webber so upset? And why did Horner say to the press, that it was an ugly thing to do, but sometimes you have to make difficult decissions

http://www.wheels24....status-20100711

Although the Australian won the Silverstone race, he had been furious on Saturday when the new specification nose fitted to his RB6 was handed to Sebastian Vettel.

He told a reporter after winning on Sunday that if all his days in F1 were like that, he would retire.

[Crossmax]

What are polls like this one supposed to achieve? Are they here to provide ammunition to be used in other threads?

Edited by Buttoneer, 27 November 2012 - 17:39.
Removed; " I honestly do not understand why some threads are locked when this one isn't..." Ask via PM, if you're unsure.

[KnucklesAgain]

First of all, I don't even think this is specifically what Vettel and RBR were referring to.

It was everything from technical rows and crying to the stewards and getting bullshit penalties to fueling rumours about Vettel having signed for Ferrari

Poor, poor RBR and Sebastian. If the bolded part is the dirties thing they ever have to contend with, they sure lead happy lives.

[DrProzac]

I think it's a normal tactic, as long as the team mate is fine with it (well no one will be happy, but if the other driver accepts it it's OK). If not that it is bad, but for other reasons.